Topic: New devblog: Industry, remixed

The latest devblog dives into the scary depths of industry to make an attempt at explaining why it was necessary to turn it upside down.

http://blog.perpetuum-online.com/posts/ … y-remixed/

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Some good changes.

Interesting to see how the fixed mineral amount is going to work out, it will certainly speed up mining. A RED titan tile base amount would be 191k units, but a vet riv MK II could get 459K or more from the same tile. Now I suppose they (RED TILES) will all have about 300k, but a single 4s (T4 Med laser+Nexus) with 240% will empty it in 167 cycles or 11 minutes, where a 10s 50% new miner will take 266 cycles or 44 minutes [per tile].

A vet miner then, will clear 6 red tiles of Titan every 11 minutes, or roughly 1 tile per 2 minutes; 30 tiles an hour. After titan fields get fragmented, as well as others, a small group of Riv MK II's (I can field 4 myself) will be able to easily clear these fields in 1 hour.

How often is the system checking to see if more ore is needed?

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Tiles will be able to hold much more minerals than what the current cycles would suggest, it's not a 1:1 conversion. However "red" tiles wont mean the same as they do in the old system, because if we would do a linear mapping of the color gradient to the amounts, then it would be very hard to see smaller, but still perfectly valuable tiles. Instead we'll cap the colors at a certain value and red will mean anything between "lots" and "omgwtf".

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

OK, that'll work then. OMGWTF tiles will allow afk mining of none liquids though...

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Out of interest, will the plants still contain cycles. or will they be subject to "amounts" too?

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Knowing exactly how much is in a particular tile would be really helpful with these changes.

That way completely depleting a field would be easier and the patchwork of itty-bitty bits of minerals everywhere that might result after time could be avoided. (spotting little green bars can be hard on some terrain)

Now, how to include that in the interface. A zoom function on the scanner results where numbers show? Numbers pop-up on mouse-over terrain?

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

All changes sound very nice. Throw in a few new somewhat fast mini scarabs to pick up stuff (between 50-100 U) quickly for the small mining patches and all will be well. smile

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

first of all: i like these changes. the room for improvements for vets may be a bit small but i will not damn a system before i have not tested it. so in general good work here. more after we had some time on the testserver.


Q:
your graph in the blog shows factory, repair and recycle which all will close towards 100%.
how will this be with refining wich was not mentioned. atm we have efficiencys above 100%. for example 137%.
how will this work with the new system? will this be softcapped as well? will the refining yield go down? or how do you plan to ballance this with the new system?

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

I would very much like some way of knowing the relative amount of lots to OMGitssomuch, my suggestion for this would be to use the size of the square, as it is currently not being used, where you could make a maxed out field where the glaring red tiles are so big they link up. Right now the size of the tile increases with how much is in it, but you could use this and the height to express that difference in how red it is.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Good changes afaik.

To Zortarg, in your examples 137 % will be something 95-98 % to comparison, old 100 % will be 87-90 %

    old          new
so 137 % = 97 %
    100 % = 87 %

(If I understand right)

Ok that is good to delete nav extenisons but what next? We dont want to use speed advantages at all? I mean make a new nav skill what dont get you more than 5% (in 10) speed bonus but still have. And make more expensive.

My problem is in this mining mecahnis (and in the old too) you would like to know where is the ore spawn before your mining team is start to move, because you dont want geosacanner on your Riv Mk2 and dont want to scanning becuse is slow and expensive, so what is the solution for that?

Energy to Earth!

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11 (edited by Shaedys 2012-04-26 09:38:31)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Inda, the problem with navigation is that it is a requirement. You want to do any PVP and the advice is get navigation to 10. If you introduce another speed extension, the recommendation will be to get that to high levels as well, now if its only 1% and a ton of EP then not immediately to 10, but soon.
Overall, mandatory extensions are bad, they are just EP sinks.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Shaedys wrote:

I would very much like some way of knowing the relative amount of lots to OMGitssomuch, my suggestion for this would be to use the size of the square, as it is currently not being used, where you could make a maxed out field where the glaring red tiles are so big they link up. Right now the size of the tile increases with how much is in it, but you could use this and the height to express that difference in how red it is.

my point here is that you will need the same amount of ore for the same ammount of item/bot as it was before.

if i take the skills of all our industrial chars as it is atm in our corp. the we need a X amount of resources. will we need for the same stuff after the changes roughly the same amount or will it be X+20% ... (for example)

so basicly will we have the same work to get what we need or will the overall effort be bigger then before???

13 (edited by Ulviirala 2012-04-26 11:51:39)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

It actually sounds good to me. Coming back after a long time and wanting to get back into industry, I'm currently only selling the ore I mine, because it's the most profit. And that's almost all I've been doing, mining and harvesting. It's okay for now but eventually it might bore me away. It'll be nice to find a niche and be competitive with 2.0 :)

I can understand why someone would ask for a full EP reset, or at least a reset in all the industry (possibly including mineral extraction) related skills. Having spent tons of EP to get to certain efficiencies for being competitive, and then not having to spend quite as much EP to get comparable/competitive results. I'd consider it.

Though I was joking about the mineral fields still being in the same spots as in beta, I'm a little bit concerned about massive fragmentation. How about deleting fields after some time if they are below a certain threshold, like less than 25% of what they had when they spawned?

Also I'm concerned about fields spawning on "passable terrain", but being close or exactly on an NPC spawn. It's not like you can "clear out the spot" and start mining, because they'll respawn indefinately. And chances are, noone's interested in farming the spawn and getting free hauling services, and paying someone to shoot or tank them for hours on end will be unprofitable.

As a player who focuses mainly on industry, I feel that beta and gamma islands have plenty reward, I long for it but I'm not very much into PvP.

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Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Ulviirala wrote:

Also I'm concerned about fields spawning on "passable terrain", but being close or exactly on an NPC spawn

I believe that all NPC spawns will now be roaming so this won't happen. When I'm mining now and a roam comes through I simply run off and hide for a few minutes and then come back to my can. AFK mining will be a more risky option.

15 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-04-26 13:37:31)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Overall, the changes look quite good, although I have some concerns, highlighted below:

Recalculating the industry - the new facility point system
Even though I am one of the hardcore veterans being 'nerfed' with this system, I like that it offers new players the opportunity to compete.

However, what I do not like is the fact the factories can give up to +125 points to efficiency (compared to +120 from maxed extension). Beta/Gamma already have a strong advantage from the refining facilities and the by default full bonus from relations, adding another advantage of this magnitude is likely to seriously harm alpha producers. Also, recombining CTs from the gamma facilities will enhance the overall efficiency further. Basically these changes say: guys we're going to replace those overpowered alpha producers with overpowered gamma producers. If gamma production has a huge advantage, new players still wont stand a chance as all serious producers will just flock to gamma, and set their margins based on those levels of efficiency.


New minerals, factional distribution
I think it should be implemented for beta/gamma ores rather than alpha ores. Why? Because that would mean fighting for different islands and trading agreements between distant corporations, and would lead to attempts to 'ninja mine' off your enemies' islands. Leaving factional ores as something only for the alpha based ores makes this far less exciting. It's just jumping from one safe island to another, so it's just really just adding more logistical nightmares than anything new to fight over.


Mineral and geoscanning changes
As I'm not a dedicated miner I can only comment sketchy on this. I think it's good as it will work towards making mining a more active profession. In terms of NIC/h it makes no difference for miners. If it takes longer to mine with the new system, ore prices will simply go up to compensate.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Will there be new Extentions for all the new raw mats 2-3 new ores and 1 new plant that I've seen in the Blog. Now I have to agree that account Reworking be allowed again. 30 day to + or - our skills that are below 6 or 7 again especially with the loss of nav skill and the re-work of all the indy skills. Perhaps a Full reinbursment of mining/indy trees is in order?

Anonymous: lobo is the only hero left in this god foresaken game / :also, Lobo is god among men
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Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Lobo wrote:

Will there be new Extentions for all the new raw mats 2-3 new ores and 1 new plant that I've seen in the Blog. Now I have to agree that account Reworking be allowed again. 30 day to + or - our skills that are below 6 or 7 again especially with the loss of nav skill and the re-work of all the indy skills. Perhaps a Full reinbursment of mining/indy trees is in order?

Yes there will be new mining and scanning extensions for the new minerals and plants.

Of course the EP for removed extensions will be reimbursed, like navigation and one of the manufacturing quantity extensions (maybe some others I don't remember now), but I don't really see why a full reimbursement of everything would be justified. All the indy extensions still have the same roles, if you had good extensions before, it will still mean an advantage to you over the less skilled players. Granted, the advantage will be now less harsh, but that's the whole point.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

DEV Zoom wrote:

but I don't really see why a full reimbursement of everything would be justified. All the indy extensions still have the same roles, if you had good extensions before, it will still mean an advantage to you over the less skilled players. Granted, the advantage will be now less harsh, but that's the whole point.

I think the point people are making is that if they had known that Expert Efficent Mass Production was only going to gain them a tiny advantage then they would have decided to spend the 30,000 EP elsewhere where they could have gained a better advantage.

Now, new players get to make that choice and older players do not.

I'm all for making Industry a good profession in which new players can compete relatively quickly and I think these proposed changes will definately help that but as a 10-10-10 mass production toon I do feel a little bit miffed about not having the choice.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

DEV Zoom wrote:
Lobo wrote:

Will there be new Extentions for all the new raw mats 2-3 new ores and 1 new plant that I've seen in the Blog. Now I have to agree that account Reworking be allowed again. 30 day to + or - our skills that are below 6 or 7 again especially with the loss of nav skill and the re-work of all the indy skills. Perhaps a Full reinbursment of mining/indy trees is in order?

Yes there will be new mining and scanning extensions for the new minerals and plants.

Of course the EP for removed extensions will be reimbursed, like navigation and one of the manufacturing quantity extensions (maybe some others I don't remember now), but I don't really see why a full reimbursement of everything would be justified. All the indy extensions still have the same roles, if you had good extensions before, it will still mean an advantage to you over the less skilled players. Granted, the advantage will be now less harsh, but that's the whole point.

Zoom, you have to understand that with the change of the whole "efficiency" system, one probably would not have spent as many EP into it if the Industry 2.0 system was there to begin with. I for one have 29 out of 30 material efficiency levels right now. I would not have gone THAT high if the system would be what you will change it to when I started!

The ones saying "impossible" shall not disturb the ones already doing it

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Scanning will add overhead to the mining process, but not that much more.

Beta and gamma, which are group oriented Islands, this won't have much of an impact for (2) reasons. First is corps can easily assign 1 or 2 players to scan a few times a week, without impacting production. Second is much less competition for ore; once you find a field, you can be reasonably sure that you're corp is going to be the one to mine it. Generally, this means that beta gamma corps will have a reserve file of ore, so miners will wont' have to scan, they can get upload and go.

Alpha, which is likely to be more small or solo miners with more competition, will be harder pressed.

However, with the current low population the competition component is greatly reduced. Meaning that an alpha miner will be able to scan more location in a session, then the competition can mine out, so they will probably only have to scan every 3 or 4 days. Also, if the fields really contain OMGWTF amounts, it could easily take alpha miner a week just to mine one location.

tl;dr- The real impact of the scan change won't be felt until the competition on alpha increases. Until then, just buy the tile scans from Lucius smile

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

DEV Zoom wrote:
Lobo wrote:

Will there be new Extentions for all the new raw mats 2-3 new ores and 1 new plant that I've seen in the Blog. Now I have to agree that account Reworking be allowed again. 30 day to + or - our skills that are below 6 or 7 again especially with the loss of nav skill and the re-work of all the indy skills. Perhaps a Full reinbursment of mining/indy trees is in order?

Yes there will be new mining and scanning extensions for the new minerals and plants.

Of course the EP for removed extensions will be reimbursed, like navigation and one of the manufacturing quantity extensions (maybe some others I don't remember now), but I don't really see why a full reimbursement of everything would be justified. All the indy extensions still have the same roles, if you had good extensions before, it will still mean an advantage to you over the less skilled players. Granted, the advantage will be now less harsh, but that's the whole point.


<.<

>.>

Pumpkin chocolate chip cookies.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Over all it looks like good changes to make the game more dynamic. Cant wait to get on the test server and try things out smile

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Sid from mining wrote:

Zoom, you have to understand that with the change of the whole "efficiency" system, one probably would not have spent as many EP into it if the Industry 2.0 system was there to begin with. I for one have 29 out of 30 material efficiency levels right now. I would not have gone THAT high if the system would be what you will change it to when I started!

Why not? Isn't the reason you spent EP for those extensions to be the most efficient in what you do? If manufacturing is what you do, why would you spend it on something else?

A level 10/10/10 efficiency will help you tremendously if you don't have access to a gamma terminal. And even if you do, you will still have the upper hand over those who are not that skilled. Don't underestimate the small differences in the high-end ranges, those will add up easily in mass production.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

I"m still a little sketchy on the production cycles.

If I set the quantity of items to be produced, to 100, is it like it currently is now, and the material for all 100 units is consumed, and all 100 units finish at the same time 9 or 10 days later (or 70 days later for heavymechs)?

Then CT degradation is applied after the run? So if it was 590, I could make 100 units at 590, but after the run, the CT may have been reduced from 150 down to 60?

25 (edited by Shaedys 2012-04-26 18:57:08)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

To take this to a better format than blog comments:
To Zoom:

Bots take an amount of materials to make, being self sufficient you mine the raw materials to make the bots you need to go out and pvp, where with us the PVP is considered the fun part. If you add overhead to the mining through more scanning, then you have less time to go out and have that fun.

The scanning down of fields takes time, it creates overhead on the mining and thereby increases the amount of time before you have the equipment built. Reducing the amount of time you have for fun. Now I would like scanning more than sitting on a spot and mining.

My suggestion would then be to keep the overall time spent on the industrial part the same. Increase the mining yield(or decrease the material cost of equipment) to compensate the time it takes to now scan down the fields. The time to scan down fields can be found out on the test server. For an average mining session you could take an hour(or two).

The problem for Lupus isn't the scanning down of fields, its reducing the amount of time you have for the fun stuff. Even if it reduces it for everyone, that's still reducing it.