Re: Industry 2.0

I think Arga is correct that the indy changes could just be the new CT and decoder facs on gamma.

I also will predict the way you find ore will change. It will be more like artifact scanning since the ore fields will be moving all the time. /prediction

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

27 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-04-04 23:39:37)

Re: Industry 2.0

Ville - I agree, just baiting on Arga's post wink

Gremrod - I hope that the industry changes are pretty much just that. Just strange to call that Industry 2.0 imho! (especially since that has already been mentioned in previous blogs, and they will dedicate next blog to Industry 2.0)

Re: Industry 2.0

*trollolol* smile

Re: Industry 2.0

Ville wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Okay, I'll take the bite.

Firstly, the selling point of this game is a sci-fi sandbox with all that entails, not only PvP. Many people have indeed pointed out how important PvE is for the game.

Secondly, corps that run that ratio of PvP:Industry are doing it extremely inefficiently. If you are on beta, you can easily make 8m/h, but probably far more. 8m should be enough for 2 quite well fitted assaults, no?

(by inefficient I mean that they either spend their time mining titan ore while they could mine epriton, or outright give their members very bad deals)

They are not going to do away from Industry.

Correct ^^. No way they will do away with industry as Arga says that my opinion. The cure for low player base would be worse than the disease.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Industry 2.0

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Ville - I agree, just baiting on Arga's post wink

Gremrod - I hope that the industry changes are pretty much just that. Just strange to call that Industry 2.0 imho! (especially since that has already been mentioned in previous blogs, and they will dedicate next blog to Industry 2.0)

Well they made a change to intrusions and called it 2.0. When it really is the same system with some tweaks here and there with candy falling out of sap cans.... smile

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Industry 2.0

Arga, you need to cut down on the troll-posts wink

Re: Industry 2.0

Lower mineral amounts need to manufacture everything in game and you may see a boost in pop since it would be a bit easier to produce. (maybe or maybe not).

sorry totally starting to get off topic.... smile

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Industry 2.0

Celebro wrote:
Ville wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Okay, I'll take the bite.

Firstly, the selling point of this game is a sci-fi sandbox with all that entails, not only PvP. Many people have indeed pointed out how important PvE is for the game.

Secondly, corps that run that ratio of PvP:Industry are doing it extremely inefficiently. If you are on beta, you can easily make 8m/h, but probably far more. 8m should be enough for 2 quite well fitted assaults, no?

(by inefficient I mean that they either spend their time mining titan ore while they could mine epriton, or outright give their members very bad deals)

They are not going to do away from Industry.

Correct ^^. No way they will do away with industry as Arga says that my opinion. The cure for low player base would be worse than the disease.

I never said they were going to do away with industry, just make it simpler, which industrialist characters may not find enjoyable.

@ Lucius - I'm way under my 80/20 limit still wink

Re: Industry 2.0

I hope industry changes will make running production on Gamma possible and competitive with alpha.

The only change announced so far (crippled tp network) works totally against it.

Re: Industry 2.0

Celebro wrote:
Ville wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Okay, I'll take the bite.

Firstly, the selling point of this game is a sci-fi sandbox with all that entails, not only PvP. Many people have indeed pointed out how important PvE is for the game.

Secondly, corps that run that ratio of PvP:Industry are doing it extremely inefficiently. If you are on beta, you can easily make 8m/h, but probably far more. 8m should be enough for 2 quite well fitted assaults, no?

(by inefficient I mean that they either spend their time mining titan ore while they could mine epriton, or outright give their members very bad deals)

They are not going to do away from Industry.

Correct ^^. No way they will do away with industry as Arga says that my opinion. The cure for low player base would be worse than the disease.

Don't ever agree with me again.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Industry 2.0

Still think adding dynamic ore spawns that require 30 mins to find will KILL casual miners.  If I have 2 hours to player and it takes 30 mins to hunt down an ore spawn then it takes time to get there setup etc... I get 1 hour mining before i have to haul it back.  This doesn't seem logical to me just my two cents.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Industry 2.0

Ville wrote:

Still think adding dynamic ore spawns that require 30 mins to find will KILL casual miners.  If I have 2 hours to player and it takes 30 mins to hunt down an ore spawn then it takes time to get there setup etc... I get 1 hour mining before i have to haul it back.  This doesn't seem logical to me just my two cents.

This is where the balance comes in.

Lets say you can mine 500U an hour.

In 2 hours, you would have mined 1kU.

If they rebalance mined amounts, so you can get 1kU in 60 minutes of mining but it takes you 60 minutes of moving and scanning, then your all good. Add to that, not having to put 1kU into a can, but being able to store it in your bot as you roll, that is if your using a heavy mech, where a argano or termis may only hold 100U or 500U.

Re: Industry 2.0

Whens the last time the Devs Buffed something?

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Industry 2.0

Actually there is some unanswered quisetions (or just I dont know).

1. I dont know, when will change the ore fields and the mined amount will change or not? (can be time limited as 1 month is after the ores will change or when the ores is mined out will move and so on. We dont know now, at least me)

2. And where will be Titan and Epriton? That is also one ipmortant thing what you need before thinking. When I asked this question I had an idea what about Epriton and Titan not everywher on Gammas just some island has and maybe this can be change intime.

3. One more question where will be make money on Gamma? Because there wont be NPC buying plasma or anything.

As Mark Zima said, yes probably we need to thinking about beta making, because will be far away the alphas, but I think that can be interesting when you need to go to Alpha with 2-5 teleports and then go back home, so you will need to defend that > pvp will be and pirates has a new opportunity. Because actually you can do this things alone, and with a detector thats all, because the Alpha is really close. After this you need to walk at least to beta and then Alpha 2 actually I bet nobody will live on Gamma 1 because this islands will be extremely attacked. So you need to hauling at least 2 pvp area, 2 islands where you are not safe, so you need thinking out that worth it to go Alpha?

One more question can be possible make a trading hub on beta?

Actually you have some advantage on Gammas to make things, so maybe this is enough. But you can earn money, and you will have haling things to there.

One thing is sure that will be Interesting.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Industry 2.0

Ville wrote:
Celebro wrote:
Ville wrote:

They are not going to do away from Industry.

Correct ^^. No way they will do away with industry as Arga says that my opinion. The cure for low player base would be worse than the disease.


Don't ever agree with me again.


Agreed...won't do it again.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Industry 2.0

PM with Lucius

[00:30:31] <Celebro> but the biggest issue with indy has always been the odd reason of having higher lvl facilities on beta instead of alpha tbh
[00:31:01] <Celebro> that does not create any trade
[00:31:40] <Celebro> i mean hubs are created in safe areas
[00:32:55] <Celebro> buff resources x4 on beta, lower it on alpha but switch the facility effieciency is imo
[00:33:09] <Celebro> now that creates trade
[00:33:33] <Lucius Marcellus> agree
[00:33:59] <Celebro> so thats my prediction /signed
[00:34:05] <Celebro> big_smile
[00:36:24] <Celebro> afterall u dont really have a need to do indy on beta, its just for pvp + resources
[00:36:45] <Lucius Marcellus> Agreed
[00:37:09] <Lucius Marcellus> You need some to FIGHT for on beta, not just a facility
[00:37:32] <Lucius Marcellus> something that encourages you to try to steal from others territory
[00:39:01] <Celebro> even just having titan+HDT on alpha the rest only in beta
[00:40:02] <Celebro> as beta is fail on industry they would rather sell and buy stuff on alpha
[00:40:20] <Lucius Marcellus> yup, agree
[00:40:51] <Lucius Marcellus> I dont see anything wrong with actual production being on alpha, as long as resources based on beta
[00:41:00] <Celebro> but u still have a choice to do indy on beta as u dont have to haul it all back
[00:41:09] <Lucius Marcellus> atm I think it's the opposite! Only epriton makes beta unique...
[00:42:21] <Celebro> so ture
[00:42:26] <Celebro> true*
[00:43:55] <Celebro> do u mind if i post this last chat section on the forums?
[00:46:02] <Celebro> starting from 00:30:31
[00:46:03] <Lucius Marcellus> Not at all

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Industry 2.0

Celebro wrote:

PM with Lucius

[00:30:31] <Celebro> but the biggest issue with indy has always been the odd reason of having higher lvl facilities on beta instead of alpha tbh
[00:31:01] <Celebro> that does not create any trade
[00:31:40] <Celebro> i mean hubs are created in safe areas
[00:32:55] <Celebro> buff resources x4 on beta, lower it on alpha but switch the facility effieciency is imo
[00:33:09] <Celebro> now that creates trade
[00:33:33] <Lucius Marcellus> agree
[00:33:59] <Celebro> so thats my prediction /signed
[00:34:05] <Celebro> big_smile
[00:36:24] <Celebro> afterall u dont really have a need to do indy on beta, its just for pvp + resources
[00:36:45] <Lucius Marcellus> Agreed
[00:37:09] <Lucius Marcellus> You need some to FIGHT for on beta, not just a facility
[00:37:32] <Lucius Marcellus> something that encourages you to try to steal from others territory
[00:39:01] <Celebro> even just having titan+HDT on alpha the rest only in beta
[00:40:02] <Celebro> as beta is fail on industry they would rather sell and buy stuff on alpha
[00:40:20] <Lucius Marcellus> yup, agree
[00:40:51] <Lucius Marcellus> I dont see anything wrong with actual production being on alpha, as long as resources based on beta
[00:41:00] <Celebro> but u still have a choice to do indy on beta as u dont have to haul it all back
[00:41:09] <Lucius Marcellus> atm I think it's the opposite! Only epriton makes beta unique...
[00:42:21] <Celebro> so ture
[00:42:26] <Celebro> true*
[00:43:55] <Celebro> do u mind if i post this last chat section on the forums?
[00:46:02] <Celebro> starting from 00:30:31
[00:46:03] <Lucius Marcellus> Not at all

This is so wrong that I'm speechless.

"Does not create trade?" You mean, does not allow you to do easy mode production without ever leaving a single alpha terminal? While lowlifes fight for raw resources on pvp islands. Reality check: ICS Alpha/Tellesis Main is not the center of the world and never meant to be.

Best production (actually, best everything) should be on gamma period. And devs have to provide the tools to make it happen. They failed to do that with beta...

Trade hubs need safe areas? Sure, give us tools to create these areas (<- great idea right here). NOT confine all industry to alpha.

Re: Industry 2.0

trade will naturally happen if given time & political climate & player population.
Did the titan ore change (removed from beta) mean masses of trade going back & forth between beta & alpha? Nope.

Trade will come in time but there must be a balance. Each of the Islands sure should have pros & cons. But massively hamstringing an island over another "to force" trade is a very bad way about going about it. 

The best way IMO is the make lots of small but noticeable differences across the board. If you want to be self self sufficient in beta / gamma / alpha then there should be nothing to stop you. But you would find it hard to do so than if you did engage in trade with other islands or use the force of war to achieve the materials you needed to control.

Re: Industry 2.0

Hubs to Gammas!

Maybe with that or any other solution:
Trade hubs need safe areas? Sure, give us tools to create these areas (<- great idea right here).

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Industry 2.0

Ville wrote:

Still think adding dynamic ore spawns that require 30 mins to find will KILL casual miners.  If I have 2 hours to player and it takes 30 mins to hunt down an ore spawn then it takes time to get there setup etc... I get 1 hour mining before i have to haul it back.  This doesn't seem logical to me just my two cents.

Yes.  This.  I spent hours carefully mapping and waypointing certain areas for the ores I want.  If all of that is gone they better be offering some serious compensation.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Industry 2.0

Hubs will not form on gamma, or at least major Hubs will not form there.

You say give the tools to create them, but can you make it so producers are truly safe from their living islands onto gamma while traveling to said Hub?

Hubs form on their own natural means. Producers and traders are like water and will take a path of least resistance to sell their product.


A major Hub will not form on gamma as long as the path of least resistance is the path to an alpha terminal.

You can ask for all the tools you want to help you create this yourselves. But players will be the very thing that would be the problem of having a hub or trying to have a hub on gamma.

I don't see it happening.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Industry 2.0

Agree with Gremrod, trade hubs will not form on PVP areas, they only form where is safe to do so, and that needs to be controlled by game mechanics.

PVP areas area meant to be risk vs reward, there is no risk inside an outpost, so why give better bonuses for production, that only attracts industrial players.

That does not mean beta will not be attractive to live in, buff mining yields, make more materials exclusive to beta, buff PVE and mission rewards and nerf alpha, but leave safe areas with just the advantage to make slightly more efficient production.

This does have a good advantages for all players:

Beta players will trade with alpha producers to sell materials for a good profit (beta players will still be far richer).

Hauling materials from beta to alpha will finally be profitable and worth the effort. (Haulers as a profession)

Easier for new corps to get a hold on beta.

More targets on beta as it's all about the fight for resources, not production.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have access to all lvl 4 facilities but still think the advantage for these should be in safe areas. Beta island should have different types of advantages.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Industry 2.0

Celebro wrote:

make more materials exclusive to beta.........Hauling materials from beta to alpha will finally be profitable and worth the effort. (Haulers as a profession)

Ressources.  Localization.

Re: Industry 2.0

If I'm going to mine all day, maybe I should do it IRL ...

http://www.planetaryresources.com/opportunities/

Re: Industry 2.0

Arga wrote:

If I'm going to mine all day, maybe I should do it IRL ...

http://www.planetaryresources.com/opportunities/

I never said to remove manufacturing on beta, no need to mine all day either, as mining would less time intensive on beta. So less time mining/PVE/grinding, but with less efficient facilities. Always a way to use indy alt to manufacture on alpha if you want it both ways wink

RIP PERPETUUM