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Topic: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

I'm surprised there's no thread in this forum about this so far, so I'll get the ball rolling I suppose. Let me know if it's in another forum somewhere, and I'll piss off.

Arkhes for free when you die are really annoying on the beta islands. Some feel the arkhes are overpowered for what they are worth, and I could possibly agree with that, but ultimately I think the problem is the endless spawning of free scouts that one character can get in enemy territory.

Maybe you get a free Arkhe when you die, but you have to spawn on the Alpha islands? Maybe the Arkhe isn't free when you die? You need to pay 40 or 50k?

Maybe Arkhes need 15 hp instead of the close to 1k they have now? Weapon mod nerf? Speed nerf? (I'm opposed to a speed nerf, but I know some people are in favor of this)

Nerf the cargo space so they can't cap outpost objectives?

WHAT'S THE SOLUTION? Something must be done...

2 Reply by Gremrod (edited by Gremrod 2010-12-08 21:11:29)

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

1. Make them spawn at beta terminal and not outposts.

2. Let CEO of corp that owns the outpost control who can set the outpost as home.

If the owner/renter of the outpost doesn't have you set to at least Good Standings then player can't set that outpost as their home.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Only the corp owning the outpost should be able to set it as their home.

Makes owning a station a bigger deal
Doesn't encourage mega alliances
Beta terminals are not that far away for access to assignments and facilities or whatever

4 Reply by Roxi (edited by Roxi 2010-12-09 00:11:40)

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Just my Opinion, but i think arkhes shouldn't be able to Shoot/E-war other players.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Seems odd thats its only certain people, from a single alliance, heavily complaining about this.

But I agree partially and think you shouldnt be able to respawn right there at an outpost that is an enemys. Like everybody in the outpost is all happy to see their enemy. OH COME IN, DRINK EAT, BE MERRY.. Im going to kill your whole family soon as you undock though, but for now- hows the kids?

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

An Arkhe with Nav 10 moves at 79 kph, adding a Standard Lightweight Frame accelerates it up to 99 kph.
Thats as good a scout as you will ever need if you only want to keep eyes on the enemy.
An Arkhe with 2 Lasers, a Demob and a Lightweight Frame moves at 87 kph.
It offers the firepower of an Intakt and moves fairly quickly. In fact it is quite capable of keeping pace with a fully standard fit Intakt.
The same fitting on a Prometheus would only bring you up to 76 kph.

As a result, if one were to set up a roaming gang to move around quickly, the logical choice apart from Ewar-bots are Arkhes. Not light bots, Arkhes.
Not only do they simply outperform light bots in terms of mobility, they are also free.
Instead of just being inferior to every other bot in the game, it actually ended up being a versatile hybrid between light bots and Ewar-bots. While there is nothing inherently wrong with having a bot like that in the game, it should not be free.

Prevent Arkhes from fitting anything other than Syntec equipment and limit their top speed to 50 kph.
If you really want to have something like the current Arkhe in the game, just keep the MK2-Version as it is and make it manufacturable at 65% of the material value of an Ewar-bot.

7 Reply by Tzun Tzu (edited by Tzun Tzu 2010-12-09 12:48:49)

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Roxi wrote:

Just my Opinion, but i think arkhes shouldn't be able to Shoot/E-war other players.

^^ this they shouldnt be able to engage in pvp or....


bureaucracy wrote:

Prevent Arkhes from fitting anything other than Syntec equipment and limit their top speed to 50 kph.
If you really want to have something like the current Arkhe in the game, just keep the MK2-Version as it is and make it manufacturable at 65% of the material value of an Ewar-bot.

best idea ive seen^_^

death to the arkhe swarm!

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Arkhe has a "delivery timer" of a couple minutes or something before it gets into your storage.  You can undock in other bots right away if you want, but the endless arkhe swarm isnt possible, or is at least nerfed a lot.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

1) Make Arkhe Mk2 the current Arkhe.
2) Reduce Arkhe mass so that LWF have less of an effect or reduce the effect a LWF has on an Arkhe.
3) Make Arkhe's unable to target players/active offensive modules on players anywhere.
4) New Arkhe timer is 10 minutes. If you've received an Arkhe in the last 10 minutes you must either use a different robot or wait.

Give Arkhe Mk2 on the 2nd tutorial assignment (Just before new players will be begging for a speed increase for the assignments). Light robots are pretty cheap and you can farm enough NIC from Drones pretty easily with a standard Arkhe or Mk2 to be able to afford a new light robot if you lose one.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

I think it would be helpful if we discussed both the problems and solutions together...not just provide solutions to some general "Arkhe" problem.

So, the issues are:

- Arkhe's are free and infinite so players use them for fodder
* Increase the cost of the Arkhe, via increased NIC cost or increase time cost (via a 'delivery time' or a respawn in an 'Alpha' outpost)

- Arkhe's can do a decent amount of damage in PvP, with minimal risk to loss of NIC
* Limit the items an Arkhe can equip (only syntec, etc), take away for their ability to engage in PvP, and/or increase the penalty for dying (see above)

- Arkhe's are effective scouts, due to speed and costlessness
* Perhaps this is not even a problem, but if this ability takes away from another bots ability to do the same (ie a scouting-type EW bot) then it should be nerfed well below the abilities of it

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

The only presence a player has in the game is thier mech, the game has to give players something, or you've removed the players ability to play the game.

Answer- But I'm L33t player and have lots of money and 100 extra mechs, and I always keep 10 mechs at my home base, so suck it new players.

Delaying, paying, or denying a replacement mech to players that have died is not the solution, you must give the player something to activate in.


The Arkhe zerg is only an issue if you are trying to 'camp' the enemy graveyard, um I mean station.

In our engagement with M2S, they backed off the station and I followed in my Arhke, they killed me roughly 1000m off the station, and there was no way I was going to zerg back to them from that distance.

Sitting on an enemy's station SHOULD be dangerous, and if you not at the station, but just roaming around an enemy's Island, you can't get zerged; blobbed in waves maybe.

For players that are new, and not in a corporation, the only mech they may have is the Arkhe. Nerf'ing the Arkhe may be make PVP for experienced players better, but it would make the recovery curve for new players so steep they would have the patience of a saint to continue playing.

Maybe the experienced PVP players can come up with an alternate stategy to counter the Arkhe in its current form instead of asking the dev's to fix it.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Something free like the Arkhe just shouldnt be as effective as it currently is.   You're not losing anything by using it, but you can stand to gain quite a bit because of its accumulated power and speed.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Arga wrote:

The only presence a player has in the game is thier mech, the game has to give players something, or you've removed the players ability to play the game.

Answer- But I'm L33t player and have lots of money and 100 extra mechs, and I always keep 10 mechs at my home base, so suck it new players.

Delaying, paying, or denying a replacement mech to players that have died is not the solution, you must give the player something to activate in.


The Arkhe zerg is only an issue if you are trying to 'camp' the enemy graveyard, um I mean station.

In our engagement with M2S, they backed off the station and I followed in my Arhke, they killed me roughly 1000m off the station, and there was no way I was going to zerg back to them from that distance.

Sitting on an enemy's station SHOULD be dangerous, and if you not at the station, but just roaming around an enemy's Island, you can't get zerged; blobbed in waves maybe.

For players that are new, and not in a corporation, the only mech they may have is the Arkhe. Nerf'ing the Arkhe may be make PVP for experienced players better, but it would make the recovery curve for new players so steep they would have the patience of a saint to continue playing.

Maybe the experienced PVP players can come up with an alternate stategy to counter the Arkhe in its current form instead of asking the dev's to fix it.

So what about a delayed shipment if your home base is a beta terminal... this would solve all problems and not effect alpha's.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Sitting in the enemies station should be danagerous if they have the supply to keep coming out in bots and kill you.  If you kept undocking in new assaults we wouldnt have stood a chance past the first wave probably.

You can just have a swarm of 50 noobs all set beta outpost as home and swarm anyone that gets close.  Just because you live there doesnt mean you have the capability to defend it.  Defending with free stuff shouldnt happen in a game like this where economy is the backbone to the entire game.  If you dont have the bots/players to defend it you probably shouldnt be there.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Bruce Lee wrote:

So, the issues are:

- Arkhe's are free and infinite so players use them for fodder
* Increase the cost of the Arkhe, via increased NIC cost or increase time cost (via a 'delivery time' or a respawn in an 'Alpha' outpost)

- Arkhe's can do a decent amount of damage in PvP, with minimal risk to loss of NIC
* Limit the items an Arkhe can equip (only syntec, etc), take away for their ability to engage in PvP, and/or increase the penalty for dying (see above)

This summarises it pretty well.

Bruce Lee wrote:

- Arkhe's are effective scouts, due to speed and costlessness
* Perhaps this is not even a problem, but if this ability takes away from another bots ability to do the same (ie a scouting-type EW bot) then it should be nerfed well below the abilities of it

The fact they are an effective alternative to ewar bots is a problem. Arkhes should not be used for mobile or offensive scouts at all. So I agree with the idea that the lightweight frame should not have much effect on an arkhe, plus their default speed should be lowered, so that even at Nav 10 it does about 65kph. Although what that set the default speed to?

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

I think only NPC corps should give free arkhes and only at alpha bases. If you are in  a player corp and you don't have money for a new bot or your corp can not support you with one then you probably shouldnt be in that corp.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Arga wrote:

Sitting on an enemy's station SHOULD be dangerous, and if you not at the station, but just roaming around an enemy's Island, you can't get zerged; blobbed in waves maybe.


Set home to your station, suddendly, we get 1241421 free arkes and its OUR station.


lololol

your logic fail.

18 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2010-12-16 19:35:41)

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Neoxx wrote:

Sitting in the enemies station should be danagerous if they have the supply to keep coming out in bots and kill you.  If you kept undocking in new assaults we wouldnt have stood a chance past the first wave probably.

You can just have a swarm of 50 noobs all set beta outpost as home and swarm anyone that gets close.  Just because you live there doesnt mean you have the capability to defend it.  Defending with free stuff shouldnt happen in a game like this where economy is the backbone to the entire game.  If you dont have the bots/players to defend it you probably shouldnt be there.

Exactly - no risk PVP should never be allowed to exist.  Risk=Reward.

Easiest solution might be this - 1)Arkies only spawn at the Alpha terminal of that player's megacorporation and 2) Arkies cannot activate teleports to Beta islands.  Now if someone brings one in as cargo, they still have to risk a bot, get to destination, and if it subsequently gets destroyed, well, you end up on Alpha, and have to do it all over again. Or, if arkie is in cargo hold of another bot, that bot cannot teleport to Beta either.  Then to go to beta involves NIC risk, to get those pewpews

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Siddy wrote:

Set home to your station, suddendly, we get 1241421 free arkes and its OUR station.

lololol

your logic fail.

Incorrect. You can only be in 1 arkhe at a time, so you would need 1241421 alts docked and homed to the station to make it yours. In which case there's nothing stopping us from doing the same to your station. Which results in everyone running around each other's stations with nothing to fight.... not too exciting.

The best you can do is 'harass' a station with a single arhke homed, which we've already seen done. In general that person usually gets bored with it after a while; and when we deploy a single Termis with remote repp at the station, we don't even bother shooting said arkhe which runs out of ammo and is then totally worthless until you run off and suicide.

As for the rest of the arguement about actually using Arkhe's and thier OPness, I don't really care, now that I have enough EP and NIC to get and insure other bots, screw the newbs (<--- Sarcastic Trolling again because everyone keeps suggesting that the Devs put MORE controls on the game to handle crap that we can deal with internally, let them deal with things that are really broken, adding more content and features).

20 Reply by Thadious (edited by Thadious 2010-12-17 02:33:11)

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

OK, Tell me if I am missing something here...

1. Arkhes are not really even your property, as you did not buy them, but the syndicate lets you use them to improve yourself so you can later be powerful enough to further the grand plan.

2. It is not in the syndicates best interest to allow you to take their trainer bots to the beta islands.

Seeing as that is the case, I think arkhes should not be able to travel to beta islands at all, and if you need an arkhe respawn when you are on a beta island it should transport your spark to your mega-corps home terminal for said respawn.

You would still be able to do whatever you wanted with your MK2, but I think you only get one of those, right?

This would also get rid of the problem of people TK'ing their own teams arkhes to raise their stats.

(Just my 2 cents...)

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Arkhe's supplied on the beta island should have no equipment. Arkhe's should not count towards intrusions or PVP. They are the property of Syntec.

Arkhe's should only be allowed to fit Syntec equipment. The tutorial should be adapted as such until the final few stages that reward you with basic equipment. Syntec weapons should only be able to shoot Syntec ammunition.

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Re: Cheap Arkhes: need less cheap or less pew pew?

Alexander wrote:

Arkhe's supplied on the beta island should have no equipment.

Arkhe's should only be allowed to fit Syntec equipment. The tutorial should be adapted as such until the final few stages that reward you with basic equipment. Syntec weapons should only be able to shoot Syntec ammunition.


I think this would pretty much fix the problem.