Re: The Kain needs some love.

Sometimes it feels like there are no new bots coming at all, because it would throw off the current balances. sad

I think everyone understands if you're in a light bot, and come up against a Hmech, your not likely to kill the hmech. So its less likely that we'll see MORE bots in the current sizes, but more likely we'll see the next level of bots, that only have to be balanced within thier own Large class (by destroyer name or whatever) and not against the previous three.

Maybe with the expansion ...  hmm  (not holding breath)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

no, the game is not ready yet for more robots!

and somehow, thats not even a troll-statement sad

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The Kain needs some love.

The game may not be, but the vetern players are...

Basically, the double handful of players that are advanced enough (and still playing) to make use of larger bots, isn't large enough to warrent the introduction of those bots?

Add the larger bots to the game, to provide a new goal for corps. Make the extension requirements high, the kernels rare drops out of beacons, and production require the new rare mineral off gamma; all those things will ensure the bots do not go mainstream quickly.

Another thought, is MK III bots, that are like MK II, but have 5% more reactor, cpu, and acc; and a little heavier with more cargo. MK III bots would not be factory buildable, only prototypable (making high material dependant and very limited production) and they require a MK II bot as a component. The 5% is just enough to make some really tricky fits, but still only if the player has some high extensions. And the increased stats to value ratio is so small, that only a very few players would even see any benefit from them. The point of the MK III would give vetern players something to shoot for, that wouldn't over balance the game. Recall when MK II's first came out, no one used them because they benefit to value ratio was too small. Now we are seeing them much more often, as players have the NIC and skill to use them more effectively, the same would happen with the MK III.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Arga wrote:

The game may not be, but the vetern players are...

Basically, the double handful of players that are advanced enough (and still playing) to make use of larger bots, isn't large enough to warrent the introduction of those bots?

Add the larger bots to the game, to provide a new goal for corps. Make the extension requirements high, the kernels rare drops out of beacons, and production require the new rare mineral off gamma; all those things will ensure the bots do not go mainstream quickly.

Another thought, is MK III bots, that are like MK II, but have 5% more reactor, cpu, and acc; and a little heavier with more cargo. MK III bots would not be factory buildable, only prototypable (making high material dependant and very limited production) and they require a MK II bot as a component. The 5% is just enough to make some really tricky fits, but still only if the player has some high extensions. And the increased stats to value ratio is so small, that only a very few players would even see any benefit from them. The point of the MK III would give vetern players something to shoot for, that wouldn't over balance the game. Recall when MK II's first came out, no one used them because they benefit to value ratio was too small. Now we are seeing them much more often, as players have the NIC and skill to use them more effectively, the same would happen with the MK III.

For them to be worth it, they would need more than that. 5% bonus to fitting is not enough.

Even the MK2 bots have far more benefits over the MK1 bots than that (additional robot control bonus, additional targetting, faster lock time/longer lock range, slightly increased fitting, faster speed, more targets)

I would imagine the MK3 bots to be more like the Praetorian bots, perhaps with 1/2 the additional bonus.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

55 (edited by Hunter 2012-03-21 05:54:20)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Inda wrote:

Can I ask what formula was used for this dps column?

EDIT: What Hunter used for his table.

[removed some trash] You better to ask DeV's. Looking at the changes in the game, I see that you have found a "common language" long time ago.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
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Re: The Kain needs some love.

Angelwing wrote:
Cobalt wrote:

Now with the numbers (all have been rounded like the game client does (i hope):

GROPHO MK2:

cycle time = 4,38 sec ; dmg modifier = 343,35% ; ammo 80 pts dmg ; crit 30% (+22,5% dmg)
DPS = 76,82 per module


MESMER MK2:

cycle time = 4,5 sec ; dmg modifier = 862.38% ; ammo 48 pts dmg ; crit 30% (+22,5% dmg)
DPS = 112,69 per module


SETH MK2:

cycle time = 2,5 sec ; dmg modifier = 446,36% ; ammo 48 pts dmg ; crit 40% (+30% dmg)
DPS = 111,41 per module

GROPHO MK2:
80 * 3.4335 / 4.28 * (  (0.1 + 6*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.7 ) = 78.62

MESMER MK2:
48 * 8.6238 / 4.4 * (  (0.1 + 5*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.73 ) = 113.13

SETH MK2:
48 * 4.4636 / 2.44 * (  (0.2 + 6*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.6 ) = 114.15

Hm, this shows a lot, it looks to me that green DPS needs a buff somewhere between 10 and 20 percent.

Blue needs something done to it as any Seth Mk2 vs Any Mesmer Mk2, the seth will come out on top, and it seems to have the higher DPS, something needs to be addressed.

Same thing with Kain V. Arty.

Discuss.

Just Sayin
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57 (edited by Inspiration 2012-03-22 23:37:56)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

0110011100001111001010001 wrote:
Angelwing wrote:
Cobalt wrote:

Now with the numbers (all have been rounded like the game client does (i hope):

GROPHO MK2:

cycle time = 4,38 sec ; dmg modifier = 343,35% ; ammo 80 pts dmg ; crit 30% (+22,5% dmg)
DPS = 76,82 per module


MESMER MK2:

cycle time = 4,5 sec ; dmg modifier = 862.38% ; ammo 48 pts dmg ; crit 30% (+22,5% dmg)
DPS = 112,69 per module


SETH MK2:

cycle time = 2,5 sec ; dmg modifier = 446,36% ; ammo 48 pts dmg ; crit 40% (+30% dmg)
DPS = 111,41 per module

GROPHO MK2:
80 * 3.4335 / 4.28 * (  (0.1 + 6*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.7 ) = 78.62

MESMER MK2:
48 * 8.6238 / 4.4 * (  (0.1 + 5*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.73 ) = 113.13

SETH MK2:
48 * 4.4636 / 2.44 * (  (0.2 + 6*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.6 ) = 114.15

Hm, this shows a lot, it looks to me that green DPS needs a buff somewhere between 10 and 20 percent.

Blue needs something done to it as any Seth Mk2 vs Any Mesmer Mk2, the seth will come out on top, and it seems to have the higher DPS, something needs to be addressed.

Same thing with Kain V. Arty.

Discuss.

It is still an apples to oranges comparison in the end (not meant this in a trolling way). These different faction weapon systems have different optimal/falloff ranges and different restrictions on when a weapon hits or not (missile/LOS) and for how much % of maximum damage. Even the before mentioned volley damage and accumulator use play an important role in a balance discussion.

This really means each factions mech ends up having different tactical specialties and that in turn means comparing them on just one, namely pure raw optimum dps is no valid method to draw conclusions about what needs a buff or not.

Important is if they each can successfully function in their more or less obvious roles. Obvious being based on weapon systems and bonuses/mechanics.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Very true Inspiration. I didnt ment to prove anything with that. Adding accu usage, range and LOS would be minimal to try to compare weapons platforms. Even then other multiple parameters come in line so its much much more complicated than just dps power. But at least its one of the params clearly calculated, and not the easiest one.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

DPS is misleading because it assumes continous damage over time.

The bot with the highest burst damage is going to be much more effective playing cat-mouse, moving in and out of cover. In a Seth to Kain comparision, in this type of scenerio where damage is not dependant on cycle time, the Kain's alpha damage (2xDmg% modifier) strike is cleary going to have an advantage.

However, in a long range shootout, over open ground, the Seth is going to have an advantage in continous fire, as well as being able to put in a number of shots before the Kain can return fire.

Analysys: Don't rush a seth sitting on top of a barren hill and don't close in and brawl with a kain in the woods.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Also Angelwing: Medium ballistic missiles do either 70 base damage or 85 (smite ballistics). You used 80, not sure where you get this number from.

So actually green DPS is a bit higher than the number posted by Angelwing if you use Faction ammo.

Otherwise the actual DPS is lower than the number he posted by 8.75%

I think pellistal bots are well balanced myself.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

61 (edited by Annihilator 2012-03-23 01:28:00)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Sundial wrote:

Also Angelwing: Medium ballistic missiles do either 70 base damage or 85 (smite ballistics). You used 80, not sure where you get this number from.

So actually green DPS is a bit higher than the number posted by Angelwing if you use Faction ammo.

Otherwise the actual DPS is lower than the number he posted by 8.75%

I think pellistal bots are well balanced myself.

sonic ballistic missile = 80 seismic damage
thermal energy cell = 48 thermal damage
compositecore slug = 48 kinetic damage

he has used the highest damage non-mission ammo.
in that case - only 40% of that damage is dealt to targets with 150 pts. resist to that color, or
38% to a target that has an active t4 hardener to fill its resist hole.

without the hardener, 90% of those listed DPS are dealt.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The Kain needs some love.

When this game grows, and I hope it does, we WILL see topics stating how the Artemis (well and the Seth) is overpowered, and how Underpowered Green has become.

Just for quotable reference. big_smile

Just Sayin
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Re: The Kain needs some love.

Annihilator wrote:

he has used the highest damage non-mission ammo.

Derp. Thanks for the correction.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

I been waiting 3 weeks to comment on this post.  The Kain is a highly versatile mech, theres are numerous methods to give you the HP boast will maintaing 72~73+ kph with a k HP Kain.  Even at 73 your still faster then most icuts and artemis and Tyrannos.  The Kain has no place in a large fleet engagment.  It does not have the range their racial supremcy has and you don't need speed to survive when theres 20+ of you.

Now it is also unwise while your under a 8 month old character to cross train between kain and artemis.  I noticed on several of our engagments you were in a bapho or a kain sometimes.  I would suggest for you start experimenting with different fits and don't be afraid to do things that may seem far fetched.

Complex mechanics and mechanics will be your kains best friend in the future along with accu skills.  A good kain pilot needs both of those skill to be 8+ imo to be effective.  Also don't be afraid to spend some skills armor repair since you get a bonus too it.  See you on the field o/

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