Hunter Espit was removed because alot of indy toons were qq'ing that T1 items that required it were pointless to produce because it was cheaper and easier to just farm them off of 1st starsand repair then to worry about either mining Epi or recycling the item. Granted this was pre-repair/recycle patch but Still makes sense plus didn't plasma get a boost when they killed the Espit out of T1 items?

Are we going back to when you were crusading for all T1 items to be removed from npcs? So that they only dropped T0 flawed?

put epi back in T1, make mining give me plasma and kernels.

with the upcomming indu2.0 patch, this topic is obsolete

Hunter as I understand you now after some question, answer.

What you said, the miners can collect much more money what they lose.

There is 2 thing why I think you are wrong here.

1. As I know  the trader can make the most money the miner alone dont make so many money I think, just ask miners.

2. If you are in team and what you mine the team will make robots with that materials and when the team is going to go PVP they will lose robots and equipment.

There is 2 type of bots, there is 4 type of equipment, If some team can collect that many materials with they can equip to all fighters in team mk2 robot with T4 equip and they after dont lose material(money) they do it right and then they can fight, but still have a problem, because if they have 10 active person in team that is dosent matter (for eaxample: RG)

My example, I cant use T4 fit mk2 robot to lose If I go to pvp alone I need to use T1 because I cant manage out the better fittings because I have less money, And I am vet I do it wrong because I dont make some money, but if you want more money I know how can i reach more but mostly need 2 account for that and need trader what is need to WORK to make rich.

Yes I am not a miner but I am a "farmer" I farming NPC and then sell the plasma, that is not so difference what miners do, they go out and after some time they collect materials = MONEY. I collect plasma = money (+ some salable module and something).

Things are made from resources and money. Things can be bought/sold for money. What makes you think that there is no connection?

Oh skrew that, I've got your point.

Your main error is - that there is NO ppl who mine only. Every miner have combat account or at least combat role. That means, there is NO miners swimming in money - they're spending it to equip their combat toons.

Another thing - there is almost NO single players without corporation.

One more - there is NO invulnerable bots - that means that every miner can be killed so he will need another bot with equip - and thats not that cheap.

Ofc, some miners can have billions of NIC (name at least one tho), but since they aren't that much and they (If they're PURE miners) don't buy anything but mining equipment - there is almost no (if any) influence on the market.

So I don't see any problem with money accumulation. If you see any - show them.

I think Hunter is talking with the PoV of a self-sufficent Corp, that has enough manpower and equip to do mining on alpha and beta, farming NPCs for kernel and plasma (= NIC). They also have finished research already and reached max standing + their own outpost where they dont need as much NIC as they gain from half an hour grinding NPCs.

It is a kind of design issue because your corp can be self-sufficient. Hopefully this will change with the announced Indu 2.0 patch and Gamma expansion.

Someone in IRC already said, you wont be able to mine all materials on one island only - and you wont get the missing stuff from the next alpha island.

For my part: i never have enough NIC. There is not much stuff i build on my own, i buy most things from player market. The design issue is just, that you never lose your equip to PvE on regular basis -> especially as miner.

I can't think of any type of farmer that would continue to farm if they lost equipment on a regular basis; unless it was highly profitable.

Most players won't scratch out a living in the dirt, meaning work for hours for a meager return, this is absolutely true after they're 'experienced' in the field; that goes for both miners and NPC farmers.

That's true, though if there are risks, rewards will reflect that on a player run economy, so that should cover for your losses. The only issue is the market with such so few players will take a while or not at all to show a reasonable reward.

In wow, once we considered content on farm, we didn't wipe on every boss, so there was little to no gold costs. If we did wipe, it was because we made a stupid mistake, if we wiped twice because of the same player, we replaced him. Note, your specifically talking about farming raids, not about progression. What you really lose when you wipe to farming, is time, and the same goes for Perpetuum. Raids reset on Tuesday and most guilds raid 3 nights a week for a couple hours in farming mode. It used to take 15-20 minutes to reset after wipe, its probably a little less now with mass rez, but that's about the time of 1 boss fight. So wiping meant you had to either go long for the night, or skip a boss.

Yes, but miners doesn't use these money, they just have them, and when they got their Riveller mk2 with full T4 (or whatever) equip and got all the extensions and sparks they need - they simply have nowhere to spend their money except they have combat toon. As a result they will have no reason to mine for money and stop mining in one or another way. Another thing - there is almost no single miners - that means that money are going to corporations mostly, not to miners. And corporations prolly have where to spend them - taxes, kernels, production, etc. Thats even more correct because more than a half of corps atm are communists.

So as you can see, there is no problem with money exit. Anyway, only thing we can have - is to get an additional ways to spend them - no need to touch anything current, just add new stuff - plex, converting NIC to tokens or using plasma as a fuel to reactors.

A Miner will get 2-3 MNIC/h on alpha and with actual Epi price ~10 MNIC/h on beta. This is clearly below the sum a good PVEler get on loot in the same time. I guess if you compare a 6 week old char without ability to drive HM, there will the Miner get more money than the PVE Char, but later on I see more income with fighting NPCs

Right.