Re: The Kain needs some love.

i love those DPS discussions.

Hypothetical: if two Kains kill their prey with 1 volley (from each mech) - do they have to care about how much more DPS their Target had? AFAIK they do not even have to care about how much hitpoints/s that target could recover...

A Seth might have more DPS then a Mesmer... but it needs to shoot twice as often to deal those DPS - which means the target has time to shoot back and deal damage to the Seth, and then, the seth has to use more AP to recover from the taken damage.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

27 (edited by Burial 2012-03-19 13:46:27)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

How often does this scenario happen? Usually fights take longer then that and thats when DPS comes into play, but of course when alphaing, volley damage counts.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Here actual only one theme... Ussualy Kains dead with full AP. Why? tongue > because rep tunings nerfed <

29 (edited by Cobalt 2012-03-19 15:42:12)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

please a bit offtopic but, someone help me with the damage bonus formula with mk2 its making me mad:


Etil DeLaFuente wrote:

Since I'm bored looking for them in bazillions of threads, I start one with all formulas inside.

Please reply with your own findings so we can keep them all in one single place.

Weapon damage :

Is rounded : Yes
BDM = Base damage modifier
RB    = Robot bonuses
WC   = Weapon control bonus from extensions (Basic magneto, etc..)
TA    = Target Analysis extension : 1% bonus per level
DT    = Damage tuning bonus : Bonus depends on module
q      = Quantity of tunings
             
RB   = Extension bonus x extension level
WC  = Extension bonus x extension level
TA   = Extension bonus x extension level
DT   = Module bonus

             
DMG = BDM * (1+(RB+WC)) * (1+TA) * (1+DT)^q

Example :
Ship :
- Yagel (5% bonus per Basic robotics extension level)
Extensions :
- Basic robotics level 5
- Basic Magnetostatics level 5 (3% bonus per level)
- Target Analysis level 4
Modules :
- Nuimtec Rowo Light Em Gun (135% base damage)
- Standard Magnetic Weapon Tuning X 3 (5% bonus)

135*(1+(5*0.05 + 5*0.03) * (1+(4*0.01)) * (1+0.05)^3
135*1.4*1.04*1.157625 = 227.54277
Result is rounded to 228


Now my experiment (I added the spark bonus in the formula):

lv8 target analysis
lv5 basic ballistic
lv10 advanced ballistic
lv10 advanced robotic

I put a T4 medium missile module on a empty gropho : result 200,23%
I put a T4 light missile module on the same gropho :     result 127,93%

That should be:

for the medium 100*(1+(10*0.05+10*0.03))*(1+(8*0.01))*1,03(the spark +3%dmg)
100*1,8*1,08*1,03 = 200,232  FINE

for the light 100*(1+5*0.03)*(1+(8*0.01))*1,03
100*1,15*1,08*1,03 = 127,926%  FINE




Now with a gropho mk2:

I put a T4 medium missile module on a empty gropho mk2 : result 218,77% ????
I put a T4 light missile module on the same gropho mk2 :     result 139,77% ????

That should be:

for the medium 100*(1+((10*0.05+10*0.01)+10*0.03))*(1+(8*0.01))*1,03
100*1,9*1,08*1,03 = 211,356%  WUT?

for the light 100*(1+(10*0,01+5*0.03))*(1+(8*0.01))*1,03
100*1,25*1,08*1,03 = 139,05%  ALMOST BUT... NOT GOOD


What is happening on a gropho mk2 that is making my formula false? Except the 10% dmg i cant see the difference with the mk1

I try everything with the 10% but it dont make it, the closer i can go is 220,2552% by adding the 10% first then normal formula.  Can someone make experiments with other  HM mk2 and give infos plz.

30 (edited by Angelwing 2012-03-19 16:00:20)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

it's =>
% Dmg = Base Damage * ( 1 + 0.03 * Basic/Advanced Robotics + 0.01 * Basic/Advanced Weapon) *
( 1+ 0.01 * Target Analysis + 0.01 * Pelistal/Nuimqol/Thelodica Robot Controls) * (1+ % Tuning)^q *
( 1+ % Spark)


Gropho MKII:
For the medium : 100 * (1+0.5+0.3) * (1+0.08+0.1) * 1,03 =218.772 %

For the light : 100 * (1+0.15) * (1+0.08+0.1) * 1,03 = 139.771%

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Thx much Angelwing. The only place i forgot to try the 10% lol. So its in the target analysis calculation slot *facepalm*

32 (edited by Cobalt 2012-03-19 18:24:14)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Ok i made some maths with the corrected formula:

Considering:

*The player is in a mk2 heavy mech, has T4 medium module and single damage type ammo (compositecore, sonic, thermal (we will consider the missile ammo as ballistic to stay in the same range category as the others)).

*The heavy mech is fitted with full T4 tuners.

*The player has all the related extensions maxxed (Advanced robotic, faction robot control, advanced weapon type dmg, the 2 fire rate related extensions, target analysis, critical hit).

*The lvl3 +3%dmg +2% crit spark

Now with the numbers (all have been rounded like the game client does (i hope):

GROPHO MK2:

cycle time = 4,38 sec ; dmg modifier = 343,35% ; ammo 80 pts dmg ; crit 30% (+22,5% dmg)
DPS = 78,62 per module


MESMER MK2:

cycle time = 4,5 sec ; dmg modifier = 862.38% ; ammo 48 pts dmg ; crit 27% (+20,25% dmg)
DPS = 110,61 per module


SETH MK2:

cycle time = 2,5 sec ; dmg modifier = 446,36% ; ammo 48 pts dmg ; crit 40% (+30% dmg)
DPS = 111,41 per module


Feel free to correct me im sure only about the gropho stats, the others have been calculated but almost exact imo.

Ok the Seth MK2 out DPS the Mesmer MK2 yikes

EDIT: some corrections

33 (edited by Inda 2012-03-19 17:17:50)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Can I ask what formula was used for this dps column?

EDIT: What Hunter used for his table.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Angelwing formula for the dmg modifier.  Tuner formula its simply +7,5% dmg % or -7,5% cycle time each tuner (mesmer mk2 has one less tuner slot remember).

35 (edited by Angelwing 2012-03-19 17:32:38)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Cobalt wrote:

Now with the numbers (all have been rounded like the game client does (i hope):

GROPHO MK2:

cycle time = 4,38 sec ; dmg modifier = 343,35% ; ammo 80 pts dmg ; crit 30% (+22,5% dmg)
DPS = 76,82 per module


MESMER MK2:

cycle time = 4,5 sec ; dmg modifier = 862.38% ; ammo 48 pts dmg ; crit 30% (+22,5% dmg)
DPS = 112,69 per module


SETH MK2:

cycle time = 2,5 sec ; dmg modifier = 446,36% ; ammo 48 pts dmg ; crit 40% (+30% dmg)
DPS = 111,41 per module

GROPHO MK2:
80 * 3.4335 / 4.28 * (  (0.1 + 6*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.7 ) = 78.62

MESMER MK2:
48 * 8.6238 / 4.4 * (  (0.1 + 5*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.73 ) = 113.13

SETH MK2:
48 * 4.4636 / 2.44 * (  (0.2 + 6*.03 + 0.02) * 1.75 + 0.6 ) = 114.15

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Inda wrote:

Can I ask what formula was used for this dps column?

EDIT: What Hunter used for his table.



I suppose : ammo damage *  X%  /  cycle time = DPS
ex: 120 * 1.98  / 7 = 33.94 DPS

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Thx Angelwing for the multiple corrections (% of crit is 27% for the mesmer due to the 5 slots only. Typo for the gropho dps).

The rate of fire for mesmer and seth are ingame number you took or calculated? If calculated can you give me the formula?

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Cobalt wrote:

The rate of fire for mesmer and seth are ingame number you took or calculated? If calculated can you give me the formula?

Base Cycle Time *' ( 1 + 0.01* General Firing + 0.03 * Rapid Firing ) / ( 1+ 0.01 *Nuimqol Robot Control )
* ( 1 - % Tuning)^q = Cycle Time

Mesmer MkII:

For the Medium EM-gun T4 :
10 / (1 + 0.1 + 0.3) / ( 1 + 0.1 ) * (1-0.075)^5 = 4.397 second

Re: The Kain needs some love.

*hint* topic is about kain... and the misslead assumption that it is an artillery/sniper mech...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Yeah sorry Anni off topic nearly ended.

Angelwing thing is cycle time is rounded each tuner calculation. So ( 1 - % Tuning)^q is false in fact.

My gropho MK2 cycle time per tuner:

0=7 sec
1=6,48 sec (7-7,5%=6,475)
2=5,99 sec (6,48-7,5%=5,994)
3=5,54 sec (5,99-7,5%=5,54075)
4=5,12 sec (5,54-7,5%=5,1245)
5=4,74 sec (5,12-7,5%=4,736)
6=4,38 sec (4,74-7,5%=4,3845)

I made the boring calculation and ended up with 4,5 sec and 2,5 sec for the Mesmer and Seth respectively.



  I saw that when wondering why my full tuner gropho wasnt showing the good cycle time. But all in all, the assumption that Seth MK2 is superior DPS wise to Mesmer MK2 when full DPS fitted is true (wich is a bit sad imo)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

and well, it kinda doesnt matter how much damage a robot does with all headslots filled with tunings -

since the topic was also pvp related - and i doubt that someone would field a fully dmg-tuning fit into pvp.

if you want to compare stuff - do it with the typical PvP situation: 1-2 tunings, assault nexus, crit-nexus (not sure if they are used in pvp).

side-question about that gropho dps up there - does it incorporate the 100% chance to hit and double base damage, compared to magnedart or almost tripple base damage, compared to apoc.

Hunter list up there doesnt say which ammo is used. How effective your weapon is also depends on the target robots resists - and the size. So the final outcome is VERY situational.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Despite the trolling, some decent info.

Thanks to Inda for proving once again he's the nicest guy on the server.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Annihilator wrote:

and well, it kinda doesnt matter how much damage a robot does with all headslots filled with tunings -

since the topic was also pvp related - and i doubt that someone would field a fully dmg-tuning fit into pvp.

if you want to compare stuff - do it with the typical PvP situation: 1-2 tunings, assault nexus, crit-nexus (not sure if they are used in pvp).

side-question about that gropho dps up there - does it incorporate the 100% chance to hit and double base damage, compared to magnedart or almost tripple base damage, compared to apoc.

Hunter list up there doesnt say which ammo is used. How effective your weapon is also depends on the target robots resists - and the size. So the final outcome is VERY situational.


you could be realy surprise about what people can do in pvp. but i suppose i will make it on the lack of pvp experience you have Anni.

and DPS formula was allready write some post ago and yes it take the base damage of missile.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Thank you M Piquet I felt good after this post, and you saw what I tried to did thx!

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

45 (edited by Annihilator 2012-03-19 20:48:24)

Re: The Kain needs some love.

oh sorry, if forgot the 1 combat 3 symbiont squads out there... made for small scale roaming

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The Kain needs some love.

as always you are blind and jump to you easy conclusion. I was not speaking in anyway about support and combat char. who need amp when you can allready lock more longer than you can shoot.

and since you are talking about small scale roaming basicly in small scale roaming a full tuning dps fitted mech is even more dangerous. but since you are mister i know everythink you should allready know that.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Annihilator wrote:

side-question about that gropho dps up there - does it incorporate the 100% chance to hit and double base damage, compared to magnedart or almost tripple base damage, compared to apoc.

Try to read the whole post not only the colored words next time youll save some time asking questions already answered.

About the hitsize of turrets/damage reduction of missiles:  Its exactly the same dps wize. One is based on chance to hit, the other on damage %. Obviously its considered you hit the same target with the same hitsize. Should i have specified this also?

And honestly, what Whys says is true. You should not give your opinion about something you dont really know. I never spoke about PvP. I just added some numbers to help the peoples that dont want to do the maths. Alright its offtopic, we also stated that.

BUT Annihilator, besides forum moderation and false pvp facts, i dunno what you added to this discussion anyway...

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Whys wrote:

as always you are blind and jump to you easy conclusion. I was not speaking in anyway about support and combat char. who need amp when you can allready lock more longer than you can shoot.

and since you are talking about small scale roaming basicly in small scale roaming a full tuning dps fitted mech is even more dangerous. but since you are mister i know everythink you should allready know that.

Why insult a player trying to give his balance opinion be it PvE or PvP his opinion matters on balance be it informed or uninformed. We do that then one could say a Yellow pilot such as your self would not have the experience to comment on a Blue balancing thread as your view is 1/3 of the overall play (theolodica).

A full tuning fit bot in pvp would only be used by such "in-experienced" player as you are accusing him to be but lets not forget that all these numbers are on pen and paper. a key thing to realize as well is that a Seth has to not only hit twice as often but is having to watch for his targets LoS twice as often.

As a Blue/Yellow pilot i actually do like my fall off bonus on my kain and i enjoy both the Kains and Artemis's flexability for play and situational effectiveness and the only thing i would be concerned with even looking at to balance with the kain was the second speed nerf as i feel the mk 1 is a pinch to slow but even that is debatable.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: The Kain needs some love.

Something else that really defines a great pilot, from just a good one, is range awareness.

A great pilot can use even as small as a 5 m range delta to destructive effect, while a good pilot may need 20 or 30m of range. Meaning, that even though the fall-off damage is less, if the one kain fit a range extender, they can use thier speed and great pilot skills to avoid most of their opponents damage. Of course, that's not going to work against a sniper, but is absolutely is useful against brawlers.

Re: The Kain needs some love.

IMO, all mechs are pretty well balanced even more so than in the other famous space MMO. You just need to find the one that suits your play style, as certain specializations suit best for the Kain than others.

What I would like is more choices, like 2 different combat 'DPS' mechs per faction with their own respective MK2 versions.

RIP PERPETUUM