Topic: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Lots of mecha games coming out this year.  The main distinction that I see so far is that they are all straight shooters: hook up with a gang, or form one, get into your mechs and blow things up nonstop.

Sounds like fun for a while, but of course that's it.  Pewpewboomboom.  For those that only want that, these will comptete severely with each other and with Perpetuum.

At first glance, then, the main draw that would keep Perpetuum vital and help it to grow would be the sandbox and the other experiences available.  That includes PvE, industry, corp interactions and things often perceived as minor: backstory, written interaction between NPCs and PCs, and in general things like the eye candy of the environment and the eye candy related to the PvP.

So: Things To Do, alone and in groups.  Presumably, a sandbox MMO can always offer more things to do, even within the PvP or PvE subcategories.

Suggestions: how can we help Perpetuum to weather the Year of the Mech, as I am calling 2012?  Advertising, certainly.  But can we propose strong points and features that make it better to play Perpetuum than "That New Mech Shooter"?  I know why I will prefer a game like Perpetuum, but that's only one sub. wink

2 (edited by Gremrod 2012-03-13 19:06:51)

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

The real difference to gamers is TIME. Most want instant action with no grind.

These new Mech games coming out are just that. Instant PVP action with no or little grind. Nothing wrong with that at all. Let's face it people have been waiting for these Mech games for sometime now. MWO is one I have been waiting for about 10 years now.

One of the other aspects is the risk vs. reward model of FFA loot mmo games like Perpetuum. TIME plus full loss of mech doesn't mix well with the majority of gamers.

Not sure if there really is anything that can be done since these game are so different.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

3 (edited by Nemo 2012-03-13 19:29:18)

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Gremrod wrote:

The real difference to gamers is TIME. Most want instant action with no grind.


<<SNIP>>
Not sure if there really is anything that can be done since these game are so different.

Agreed re many do not want to spend any time before instant gratification of the pewpew gland.

So: is there a way to get instant pewpew in Perpetuum that does not destroy the "sandbox"?  Could the parent corps have "Operative PvP training" in some sort of arena, against other live players, same corp or different?

OPINION (feel free to disregard).  Look-- I have played soooooo many MMOs, of all types.  It really is pointless to get on the "we're elite hardcore niche" wagon or the "we need safe play" wagon, etc.  The game company and the game itself need both.  OPINION ENDS.

Bottom line question: What will bring in more numbers, and in the variety necessary for even these pseudo-sandbox games?  They need all types, and the devs and people that might actually wish the game to be economically viable need more subs, in order to have working capital and some income.  People with multiple accounts usually give a false impression of health--if the player gets disgruntled, suddenly a bunch of accounts are lost. 

To be viable, the game needs more live bodies.

If instant pew is desirable, can it be made possible to fight live players without a newbie risking their entire life's savings in every battle?  Maybe even make arena fighting a source of income while the EP build-- just not high income, so eventually the person wants to get into bigger and better stuff and has to progress.  The other, obvious way is to make income easier to attain so that the new person can affor dto lose bots/mechs-- but that can lead to inflation too early.

Don't stop the game experience at entry-level PvP-- but have an entry-level PvP.

OK, thanks then for the first suggestion: some way of giving fast PvP gratification to new players.

Any other constructive ideas out there?

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Nemo wrote:

OK, thanks then for the first suggestion: some way of giving fast PvP gratification to new players.

Any other constructive ideas out there?

The game issue with this is balance.

Currently there is little reward, other than the fight itself, for open world roaming PVP.

There is certainly a demand from players wanting to login, fight and log out.

However, this game also has a player driven economy.

Looking at the overall picture;

Instant gratification event has to have a potential for both loss and gain.

Players must lose equipment in order to stimulate the player economy. No loss PVP means players would not have to run missions, mine, or otherwise interact with the rest of Nia to earn NIC to replace losses.

The reward for instant combat should be less than that for open PVP, since open PVP requires more time and would presumably have no bot or module limitations; such as would be found in an arena type encounter.

And there's the problem. Since there are no fixed or calcuable reward structure for open PVP, its impossible to compute an arena award that would be less; that is, less than 0.

A small subset of players would still engage in an arena based event, with 0 reward, but in order to be succesful and provide 'instant' PVP, the arena would need a high level of participation (if you have to 'wait' an hour for a match, that's hardly instant).

So, we see the crux of the matter. Too much particaption in arena PVP will decimate roaming PVP, while too little participation will make arena PVP fail.

Solution: Arena type events can't be 'open'. Provide a fixed number of events on a monthly basis with suffcient rewards to entice a large participation; across mulitple timezones. However, this is not 'instant' PVP, but possibly a good compromise.

Note: I use the word "arena" as a catch-all word for match based PVP.

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

As someone who has little time at the moment for games i'd have to agree with Grem, time is an issue. More needs to be done in this game to make casual gameplay rewarding, right now its just not enjoyable if you cant give twenty hours a week to the game or have a corp that gives that time on your behalf.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

@ original question: why would you want to (srs question, but i suppose trolls are gonna troll this one)?
and 2: why do u think you can?

in fact if you're paying for a game, you shouldnt worry about supporting it in any other way tongue Or put otherwise: if you have to worry for that game, it's not worth the money tongue (sry dev team tongue obvious truth is obvious).

Yay 3 minutes of my life smile)

7 (edited by Nemo 2012-03-13 23:51:23)

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Triglav wrote:

@ original question: why would you want to (srs question, but i suppose trolls are gonna troll this one)?
and 2: why do u think you can?

in fact if you're paying for a game, you shouldnt worry about supporting it in any other way tongue Or put otherwise: if you have to worry for that game, it's not worth the money tongue (sry dev team tongue obvious truth is obvious).

Yay 3 minutes of my life smile)

I know what you mean and no, I am not going to troll-- I never do.

I entirely agree that the responsibility for a game's success or failure depends upon the company, and that being a paying customer means that I do not "owe" them anything.

On the other hand, the reason that I even play these games is to do so with other people.  I have zero interest in FPSes, for example.  And I realise that this is only my own perspective.

However, as I like the game and can foresee that it could get even more interesting (I find many things in games like this to amuse myself, since I tend to make inefficient hybrids), I would like to see it survive and grow.

As to why do I think I can-- I do not.  But I think that "we" can.  Many, many things have grown from a slight effort by a few, that ends up multiplying by thousands or millions.

Granted, this is just an online video game.  Go outside into the real world and buy some down-on-his/her-luck person a sandwich and you have accomplished more than an infinite amount of game "honours" will ever bring.

But I like the game and I'd like to see it grow.  That's really all. smile

But thanks for sharing those minutes of your life-- that, too, is a significant gift. wink

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

@Arga, thank you for weighing in.  From what I have seen by perusing these forums, you tend to have balanced and insightful comments.  Not saying  that I agree with 100% of them, but the point of discussion is that many heads can bring more wisdom to the table-- we hope.

I quite understand the pseudo-economy of the game.  You are quite correct; both in this one and EVE it is driven almost solely by destruction.  I would like to see more creative drives, but that tends simply to mean maintenance for structures and the like, if they are not options for destruction themselves.

Perhaps the arenas could charge an entry fee and buy modules or bots from the manufacturing community.  Or, perhaps, the balance in the relative importance of PvP as almost the sole money sink could be otherwise diluted.

The trouble is that, with endlessly renewing resources, there is inevitable inflation and markets will collapse unless there is also consumption.  Is there something else that would entertain players of a "whole world" simulation, that could also consume resources?  Perhaps lots of resources?

Granted, that would have to be developed, but I am brainstorming alternatives.  The obvious, easier one is to corral a bunch of people into playing the game that want to go out and blow up their mechs. And who, somehow, can afford to.

Incidentally, if you check my OP, I was hoping that the arena would stimulate players into getting more into open-world PvP, not detract from it.  It was to be targeted at newer, low-EP, less experienced people.  Perhaps seeing that really, all you lose is the bot, would prompt them to get into PvP more as they got an income going.

Or how about this: is there a way that we could get the equivalent of EVE's "Red versus Blue" corps going?  Low pressure, rapid-turnaround, relatively inexpensive PvP, where your corp and your alliance's future does not depend on it?  The regions where that occurs show a bonanza for the economy.  Hundreds of ships are destroyed every day, and even hundreds of light bots in this game adds up to a resource sink that would create demand.

That, too, needs people, though.

9 (edited by Burial 2012-03-14 05:31:38)

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Arga wrote:
Nemo wrote:

OK, thanks then for the first suggestion: some way of giving fast PvP gratification to new players.

Any other constructive ideas out there?

The game issue with this is balance.

Currently there is little reward, other than the fight itself, for open world roaming PVP.

There is certainly a demand from players wanting to login, fight and log out.

However, this game also has a player driven economy.

Looking at the overall picture;

Instant gratification event has to have a potential for both loss and gain.

Players must lose equipment in order to stimulate the player economy. No loss PVP means players would not have to run missions, mine, or otherwise interact with the rest of Nia to earn NIC to replace losses.

The reward for instant combat should be less than that for open PVP, since open PVP requires more time and would presumably have no bot or module limitations; such as would be found in an arena type encounter.

And there's the problem. Since there are no fixed or calcuable reward structure for open PVP, its impossible to compute an arena award that would be less; that is, less than 0.

A small subset of players would still engage in an arena based event, with 0 reward, but in order to be succesful and provide 'instant' PVP, the arena would need a high level of participation (if you have to 'wait' an hour for a match, that's hardly instant).

So, we see the crux of the matter. Too much particaption in arena PVP will decimate roaming PVP, while too little participation will make arena PVP fail.

Solution: Arena type events can't be 'open'. Provide a fixed number of events on a monthly basis with suffcient rewards to entice a large participation; across mulitple timezones. However, this is not 'instant' PVP, but possibly a good compromise.

Note: I use the word "arena" as a catch-all word for match based PVP.

I have thought about the issue you wrote that people would just stop doing what they are doing and play the arena all the time. While I dont agree with it, I could still see a simple fix for it. I am pretty sure you have seen my instant-action arena thread, so I wont go into that here. What could be done to fix the issue of people not participating in game is to make it a requirement in order to play the game.

People would do missions as they are doing them right now, but as a reward they could take Combat Training Tokens instead of the other tokens. These tokens could then be spend in the arena-combat game("Combat Training Simulation" from now on) on equipment, bots and so on. Absolutely nothing would come out from the "combat training simulation" in terms of items or equipment while still making people participate in the normal game. I am no economy expert but I think it wouldnt affect the economy negatively at all.
Players could not play the game indefinitely since they will run out of tokens. Instead of being logged out or playing other games, they could be logged in, which is obviously a big pluss to the game.

TL;DR: NO bots or mods go in, NO bots or mods come out. Everything is fed entirely by Combat Training Tokens that could be obtained by doing missions and so on. That in turn means that the players could not simply just play the game without doing anything in the game since they would just run out of tokens.

// I like the idea of EVE styled Red vs Blue corps a lot. If anyone else is interested and wants to talk about it, then contact me in-game please.

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Nemo I like some of your ideas, I think something like a Red vs. Blue might be interesting to a fair amount of people myself included.

I always thought there was far too much of a stigma in PPO with most players about losing their bots.  If the fight was not completely onesided then it was not worth fighting seemed to be the mantra for most of the corps and fc's which really sucked the wind right out of the game for me some nights.  When I took a bot out for a roam I wrote it off in my mind right away, my only goal was to have some fun and blow some stuff up before it met it's eventual demise.

I haven't been ingame recently but what I personally always thought would be more fun was more t1 squads mixed with t4 and making sure your corp had 10+ t1 replacements fitted and ready to go so losing their bot was not a painful thing.

Keep the expensive pricy mechs mainly for pve, or for rich person pvp.  The key is promoting more action, and being less hung up on the epeen of "I blew up your bot therefore you are the worst player to have ever played this game, even though you engaged me in a suboptimal situation".

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Burial wrote:

I have thought about the issue you wrote that people would just stop doing what they are doing and play the arena all the time. While I dont agree with it.

actually, I'm not saying that people will just stop, I'm saying in order to make an 'arena' work, there has to be a certain level of server participation. Many players would HAVE to stop.

While all the different ways the arena could be set up are interesting, in the end, players only have just so much time to play the game, and with both arena and world pvp , as well as PVE available, they will have to choose where to spend that time.

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Here are some suggestions good or bad you decide.

They could add complexes in the game. Like an indoor dungeon that corps could fight for control over. Maybe have special items you can buy in the complex, or better mining, or whatever. This is just a few suggestions, but let there be a point in having control of entering it. Have it be fought over like how a terminal is fought over, but with less time.  Whatever corp owns it can enter it for that set time period. Other suggestions better then mine could probally be made. I am good with ideas just not implementing them.


If anyone is good with making webpages, there could be a ranking system where 2 people could choose a mech or bot class and dual. Have some  other people witness it then have the people involved in the dual post there win and loss in the ranking system. This would be sort of like the arena, but player made. You would have a win loss ratio in the system.  This could be done any time in the game without there being an arena. Someone could call someone out in chat.  Like I challenge you to a dual in the assualt bot of your choice. 

There needs to be more variety to missions, and not always the same ones all the time. If you don't have a mining character then doing the same best pay mission all the time really gets stale after a while. 

There should be only 1 alpha island with all  main race Terminals on it.  Maybe make it a little bit larger then the other islands to accomodate the people that would be playing on it. This would also promote newer players playing together no matter the race they play. This would lead to easier grouping for people starting out.

Each beta island should have a point to it like one island have the best mining a certain ore, or best npc spwans etc. This or have it change up every so often.

These are just a few suggestions like them or hate them there they are. If I think of any more I will post.

13 (edited by Burial 2012-03-14 16:27:59)

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Zarash wrote:

Here are some suggestions good or bad you decide.
...

If anyone is good with making webpages, there could be a ranking system where 2 people could choose a mech or bot class and dual. Have some  other people witness it then have the people involved in the dual post there win and loss in the ranking system. This would be sort of like the arena, but player made. You would have a win loss ratio in the system.  This could be done any time in the game without there being an arena. Someone could call someone out in chat.  Like I challenge you to a dual in the assualt bot of your choice.

...

I have already thought of that and made a thread: http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … iscussion/

I am still looking for other helpers but already am doing the plans of doing it alone since not much interest has shown up.

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

I have no experience with it so I would not be of any help.

15 (edited by Everx 2012-03-14 20:04:02)

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

How about have Islands that are Light bot only, or Mech etc.  That way you know going on that island your only going to find "X" style of bot.  Does not stop the blob vs 3, but at least in terms of bots you know your only going to run into one type.  Then have some sort of King of Hill or SAP going so loot could be generated to get people fighting and caring for these islands.

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Everx wrote:

How about have Islands that are Light bot only, or Mech etc.  That way you know going on that island your only going to find "X" style of bot.  Does not stop the blob vs 3, but at least in terms of bots you know your only going to run into one type.  Then have some sort of King of Hill or SAP going so loot could be generated to get people fighting and caring for these islands.

I don't mean to be too negative on the whole arena or as you propose, limited access island, but trying to artifically balance combat is something that's been talked about alot in the forums, and there's yet to be a concensus on anything workable; other then a straight-up pre-arranged tournement.

Players like to win. If there are ways for them to achieve an advantage, within the 'rules', most players will take it; and others will push outside the rules for any advantage. What this ends up doing, is requiring an ever stricter and more controlled environment as first 'obvious' tactics and then more seditious tactics surface, that provide unfair advantages; and make the play arena 'not fun'.

So, while the opening concept of a 'light bot' only island (for example) seems OK, the obvious 600,000 EP T4 fit light bot will unfairly dominate the area and provide little enjoyment for new players. Or a group of trial accounts zerging in plate fit arhkes to exploit explosion damage.

Of course, you can add rules about max EP, module fits, ect. which is the road of stricter controls, eventually leading to pre-arranged tournaments.

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Arga wrote:
Everx wrote:

How about have Islands that are Light bot only, or Mech etc.  That way you know going on that island your only going to find "X" style of bot.  Does not stop the blob vs 3, but at least in terms of bots you know your only going to run into one type.  Then have some sort of King of Hill or SAP going so loot could be generated to get people fighting and caring for these islands.

I don't mean to be too negative on the whole arena or as you propose, limited access island, but trying to artifically balance combat is something that's been talked about alot in the forums, and there's yet to be a concensus on anything workable; other then a straight-up pre-arranged tournement.

Players like to win. If there are ways for them to achieve an advantage, within the 'rules', most players will take it; and others will push outside the rules for any advantage. What this ends up doing, is requiring an ever stricter and more controlled environment as first 'obvious' tactics and then more seditious tactics surface, that provide unfair advantages; and make the play arena 'not fun'.

So, while the opening concept of a 'light bot' only island (for example) seems OK, the obvious 600,000 EP T4 fit light bot will unfairly dominate the area and provide little enjoyment for new players. Or a group of trial accounts zerging in plate fit arhkes to exploit explosion damage.

Of course, you can add rules about max EP, module fits, ect. which is the road of stricter controls, eventually leading to pre-arranged tournaments.

I agree with Arga on this one, but my main set back for arena type matches is they look too artificial not what I am particularly looking for in a sandbox mmo. I don't mind special occasions like 2-3 time a year tourneys, but too frequent is hard to balance.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

How about we stop advertising mwo on perpetuum online forums and buy 3 years worth of subs

that how we can support perp.

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Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Ville wrote:

How about we stop advertising mwo on perpetuum online forums and buy 3 years worth of subs

that how we can support perp.

+1

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: How can we support Perpetuum in 'The Year of the Mech'?

Everx wrote:

How about have Islands that are Light bot only, or Mech etc.  That way you know going on that island your only going to find "X" style of bot.  Does not stop the blob vs 3, but at least in terms of bots you know your only going to run into one type.  Then have some sort of King of Hill or SAP going so loot could be generated to get people fighting and caring for these islands.


I thought of this too by limiting certain teleporters to only small things or only big things to make travel alittle more intersting also logistics of a roam might be hard if your tackler can't come threw the same tp as the mechs.

But I have to agree with arga that this would just cause some people look for ways to break artifical limits somehow... If you played stEVE it was Wormhole stability and class of wormhole... Class 0 and 1 would only support battle cruisers now if I set up 3-5 pos in my class 1 with T3 battle cruisers then build a carrier at one of my pos what out side force of cruisers will come and kill me? No one, Fact is my Carrier is still in a class 1 WH, lol its funny, but I could resub today and have 3 toons inside a wh with the abablity to set up a pos in under a 1/2 hour.

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
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