Topic: New devblog: Wall changes

Inbetween the PBS series we take a quick sidetrack to review the balance of walls:

http://blog.perpetuum-online.com/posts/ … l-changes/

2 (edited by Arga 2012-03-06 20:13:08)

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Outpost on beta don't need to be defended. How does limting the wall distance benefit outpost owners?


Edit:

It's important to note that currently deployed walls won't be affected in any way

Accept of course, it only takes 1 hole to negate the whole wall, which can't be replaced.

A band of 1-3k is too small.

The terrain on beta islands differs greatly, but in most cases, the terrain does not allow you to create choke points within that distance. Also, you image does not take into account the SAP's at each location, which all fall within the 3k boundry and further reduce wall placement options.

1-5k distance is more appropriate.

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

I hope this doesn't interfere with lemons arena

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
Max yellow max all skills lvl 10 min max for the win

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Lemons arena lol, you'll believe any propoganda!

I vote remove the ability to build walls until they are included as part of a wall thought out PBS system!

5 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2012-03-06 23:33:02)

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

+1. DEVs, a vast improvement!

Do not bend on the upper limit, 3 km is more than sufficient ( hell, i would be happy with 2.5 km), anything more and you end up with at least 50% or an island being walled, and inbetween all the OP as well.  If each OP had a 5km radius, every op on every island would be able to wall off terrain inbetween the OPs.

3KM is more than enough to give OP defense, while still leaving terrain open inbetween OPs.

EDIT:  I would, however, advocate removal of walls outside the said zones, which would allow for the OP owner to properly evaluate what they need to do where.  At the same time, if destroyed they cannot be replaced.  Just means more wall destruction ops, which are dull, boring and expensive.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Do not bend to pressure to set the limit at 3k, its not suffcient (Hell, I would be happy with 6k).

5K is just about enough to give area defense, while still leaving terrain open inbetween OP's.

Edit: I would, however, advocate returning the NIC to any players that built walls outside this range, which would allow the OP owners to recoup some of their investment while you evaluate what your going to change next. At the same time, the more walls the devs blow up, the less NIC and time I would have to spend doing it, because I find this game boring unless I get my way.

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Arga -
1. you can repair those walls still
2. eventually you can patch up holes with... plants big_smile

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Arga wrote:

5K is just about enough to give area defense, while still leaving terrain open inbetween OP's.

HA!

Phail sarcasm is phail. try some facts and figures

EDIT: Oh, some facts and figures here.

Show us a single island where the 2 nearest outpots are further apart than 10 km?  Yes, 10, not 5, because if each outpost has a 5 km radius, the distance between the 2 has to be greater than 10 km for your statement to be true.  Hell, look at the example they used, Hokk island, at 3 km the zones for Abu and Nauwy OPs slightly overlap!

Arga, if you are not willing to defend your assets on beta, you have no business being there.  Walls should not do it for you.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

I think an overall number cap on wall placement makes more sense than a range cap. Make every unit count in your overall strategic placement.

Sparking to other games

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

i have to agree with arga here. look at the most maps. the oupost owners will have little to no benefit from a 3k range. there is still plenty of space left tha you can not wall of. but also you still will have a benefit. with 3k it will be more or less as it was without walls because the 3k will mostly not benefit you in the imprtant ways.
i think that 5k is a good number.

of cource it will be a difference between beta1 and beta2 islands.
beta 1 islands have more outposts and with that less area were you can not wall.
on beta 2 there is much more free room...

anyway look at the maps and see for yourself what will be in a 3km radius it will be not a lot of usefull things.

3k will make walls nearly as useless as probes. then as it has been said before probes only work with walls that protect them. and probes around a 3k radius at your outpost will not realy help you. and they are way to expensive to be droped around just to be shot.

the other thing is that all the walls on the map that are outside that radius will be very useless in a very short ammount of time. then a wall only werks when its closed. and we have enough ppl in this game that will poke qute a few holes in there once that patch comes out. with that all the walls will be mostly useless. so will have been the nic and the effort that were spend there. for these ppl it will be a slap in the face.

if you want that change then remove all walls and reimbuse all spend nic... well but will not change the effort... that was for nothing... ^^

11

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Syrissa wrote:

if you want that change then remove all walls and reimbuse all spend nic... well but will not change the effort... that was for nothing... ^^

I  asked for this several times already starting with the first wall nerf.

this has gone from bad to terrible .. . . not much else to say sad

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Get back to WoT Tux please.

Remove the walls, no refunds and man up the rest of you lol

13 (edited by Syrissa 2012-03-08 15:37:53)

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Jelan wrote:

Get back to WoT Tux please.

Remove the walls, no refunds and man up the rest of you lol

well i have to agree more and more with lemon. maybe you should change your avatar to a troll. you relay going more and more in that way.

you may have not got the meaning of a sandbox. and you may be pissed because your old easy kills tactics are no longer working.

and one last thing jelan, there is not only your way. cry lowder the devs may hear you. there is not only your "brute force we smash it all" way. there are other things ppl can do. but when they do then you cry. sad enough that the devs react to that.
we dont have to go to alpha if you dont like the way we play. but if you dont like the way we play we dont force you to come our way. you are just stuborn and i havent seen any real reason from you or your m2s friends besides "it kills my pvp".

try to use your head insted of crying. it may help. but i know. kids nowadays dont like to use their heads while playing games.

14 (edited by Tux 2012-03-08 17:06:50)

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Jelan wrote:

Get back to WoT Tux please.

Remove the walls, no refunds and man up the rest of you lol

Speak of what you know ...

I dont waste time with games like that

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

I predicted all these nerfs as soon as the walls came out, the simple fact is that the devs didnt implement these very well and rushed out something because of people whining.

The walls are useless now and were OP before.  When you have something that broken you admit your mistakes, remove it and re-introduce when its better thought out, if you two cant figure that out then more pity you if you cant understand what i'm saying

I liked the idea of walls but they should have been attached to the PBS patch as a whole package

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Jelan wrote:

I predicted all these nerfs as soon as the walls came out, the simple fact is that the devs didnt implement these very well and rushed out something because of people whining.

The walls are useless now and were OP before.  When you have something that broken you admit your mistakes, remove it and re-introduce when its better thought out, if you two cant figure that out then more pity you if you cant understand what i'm saying

I liked the idea of walls but they should have been attached to the PBS patch as a whole package

I agree with with Jelan here - anyone with half a brain would have seen that firstly probes, then walls were overpowered to begin with. Both were launched with no real limits, and even in a sandbox game there must be limits to what players are allowed to do, otherwise players will eventually break the game.

Arga: you've argued incessantly for walls to remain as originally launched. Would you still be for them if a corp with the numbers, the NIC and the willpower filled every possible landspace with wall, five deep around your beta outpost? That's an extreme, I know, but it was also a possibility. Unlimited walls led to unlimited wall spam, and there has never been a bright side to that. Those of you who wasted time and NIC on placing the walls as you did, well, I've no sympathy. You should have seen the nerfs coming the way the rest of us did, and planned accordingly.

Walls as they are now, and as they will be after the patch, are not useless, but at last they will be limited. There's still plenty of space within that belt to design chokes and mazes to slow down intruders - all it takes is imagination.  It may take some effort and planning, but that's as it should be. In any sandbox game - be it Perp or EVE - nothing worth doing should be easy. Everything should be a struggle, because it's the struggles that you win that you'll tell other people about, and it's those stories that attract others to the game, and this game is badly in need of a population explosion right now.

On that note: for all those moaning about their precious walls, just think how many more you would have to replace if this game had a few hundred more active PvPers, looking to get to your SAPs.

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Arga: you've argued incessantly for walls to remain as originally launched. Would you still be for them if a corp with the numbers, the NIC and the willpower filled every possible landspace with wall, five deep around your beta outpost? That's an extreme, I know, but it was also a possibility. Unlimited walls led to unlimited wall spam, and there has never been a bright side to that. Those of you who wasted time and NIC on placing the walls as you did, well, I've no sympathy. You should have seen the nerfs coming the way the rest of us did, and planned accordingly.

I was out on Kentagura when Hokk, lead by a few M2S memebers, came over and rewalled the island in, just as you suggested. 62/War cleared the outpost and highways, then proceeded over to Hokk to wall them in too. This went back and forth until Hokk finally stopped the wall wars, and concentrated on the SAPs. And, even with all the walls on Kent, they still were able to take those SAPs. Because ... again, I'll repeat - Walls don't defened anything, players do. And they just kept attacking in off time zones, when 62/WAR didn't have the numbers to counter a 20+ attack.

You should have seen the nerfs coming the way the rest of us did, and planned accordingly.

This is a terrible arguement, and it's circular. If we assume that the first wall nerf happened because of the massive number of walls on Kent, that means if they followed your advice, and did nothing with walls, then the devs wouldn't have added in decay, and if Alsbale didn't wall in mining ops, then the upcoming range change would also not be added.

This is telling players to NOT explore the limits of the game, because its obvious those limits are not meant to be reached. Please limit your use of the sand to the approved and expected limits.

Emergence gameplay is what sand-boxy games are all about. Walls created a paradigm shift in how small scale PVP needed to be conducted, but instead of adjusting, they made a plea to the develepers to revert it back to the previous play style.

With the banding, the devs are making an attempt to redirect the emergent play, but the issue is primarly that it swings the balance too far back to the 'pre-wall' play style; which is exactly what a subset of players want.

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

With my preeminent foresight I predict that PBS will be introduced with flaws that the smart people know will be nerfed. I condemn any person who uses those flawed PBS mechanics, because they should know better, like me.  I'll let you know what those flawed mechanics are later, after the fact, to show how awesome my foresight is.

Sparking to other games

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

All I could read in that comment Rex was "how awesome my foreskin is." fuuu

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Re: New devblog: Wall changes

With my preeminent foresight i predict that there will be lots of whining and ragequitting with that expansion.

and a good bunch of "i have told you so" posts.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

I've pre-written 3 different "I told you so" messages and will sell them to the highest bidders.

22

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Well I will tell you right now what is going to happen with PBS as Rex mentioned. There are a few groups of players out there who will not use them for the first 3 months all they will do is destroy every last one of them. what this will do is will push  the Devs to make the PBS stronger and stronger until that attacking group of players get it the way they want to use it for defense. Then once all the buffs are added that attacking group of players will start deploying their own PBS’s pushing all the limits that the others never thought of and making the PBS system need a nerf because the limits were pushed too far.

I just want to break something .. gimme PBS !!!

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

Tux wrote:

Well I will tell you right now what is going to happen with PBS as Rex mentioned. There are a few groups of players out there who will not use them for the first 3 months all they will do is destroy every last one of them. what this will do is will push  the Devs to make the PBS stronger and stronger until that attacking group of players get it the way they want to use it for defense. Then once all the buffs are added that attacking group of players will start deploying their own PBS’s pushing all the limits that the others never thought of and making the PBS system need a nerf because the limits were pushed too far.

I just want to break something .. gimme PBS !!!

+1 I'll ride on that one TUX lets go knock over someones castle as soon as it looks like a mound of sand. smile

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
Max yellow max all skills lvl 10 min max for the win

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

@Tux

That's a perfectly reasonable plan.

25 (edited by Gremrod 2012-03-09 18:18:19)

Re: New devblog: Wall changes

This PBS system needs a lot of....... testing, testing, testing. On a test server! Not the live prod server.

The test needs to have about 4 or 5 differently configured PBS networks, maybe more. And then it needs to be attacked with different squads of different sizes.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23