Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Mara what you say is nonsense. When engaged in a confrontation against other players, whatever the game is, you dont have to refrain from pushing the foe to its limits.

Its the game that need to create mechanisms to protect the loser from losing too much, not the attacker. Think of it when boxing, its the referee that stop the match before one take too much in the face. You cant expect the guy that took 20 punch in the nose to refrain from hitting the other one when he sees hes not lucid anymore. Its quite the contrary in fact, he start to give all what he got in reserve "to finish him"...

You may say "its just a game". Sure it is. Peoples want to win. Small pvp engagements; large scale battles; etc...
Understand what you want with "etc..." but you got the point.

Fair play is respect of the opponent, play by the rules, and accept defeat.....  certainly not refrain from pushing when you see the opponent is weakened.

PS: when your pirates where destroying all the ressources of small players not in powerful blocks, you didnt fear to make them ragequit. It would make you laugh in fact. So stop your mind spinning bullshit thx.

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

I think this game provides a lot of fun, has real great possibilities and some drawbacks that frustrate a lot of people that start playing this game.

First I think that this should never change to a game that pleases the masses, because it would need to loose everything I like, to do so, but I agree that it would be good to change some things.
If this would be an easy task to identify the problems and change them, I guess the DEVs would have either done allready, or explained why not.

For me this game has a constant problem of keeping the balance that is related to the kind of game we are playing. If Alpha corp has better living than beta corp, there would be no beta corp. If beta corp has way better living, there would be no chance for Alpha corp to get into position to enter beta some day. In the end I feel the Devs doing a good job here to try to keep the balance while changing things and constantly changing with the knowlegde that this will have some impact.

I see one major problem unsolved since start of the game, that  should be adressed and that is the reward for loosing a fight. You get no reward for loosing, which might be ok on first glance as we want to win, but in the end this means that it is reasonable to avoid every fight, you can not win. Or other way round you get not a reward for loosing a fight but for running away when victory is not sure. This point leeds always to the fast roams that enter island and are gone before enemy had time to react. This leeds to a lot of fights only taken place when one side could trick the other about there chance to win (lockin trap,...). This leeds to that many fights that do not happen, because the faster groups was convienced, that it is not good to fight for them now.
And I found nothing more frustrating than spending my online time with fights that took not place.

Ofc there are fights that took place because one side wanted to fight even if loosing, because after 2 hours running over empty island I prefer dying in uneven combat, before running away, but such fights are really rare, I don't expect that to happen more than once a week. Well even I'm not silly enough to constantly crashing his bots in fights that haven a predictable outcome in first second. This is for instance a reason why I don't like doing small scale Pvp against enemies that bring shielded green bots at the moment (which means all corps I know).

28 (edited by Mara Kaid Pirate of Nia 2012-03-06 09:25:52)

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Cobalt wrote:

Mara what you say is nonsense. When engaged in a confrontation against other players, whatever the game is, you dont have to refrain from pushing the foe to its limits.

Yes Cobalt, assuming you really came from FOOM you know exactly what you're talking about. We all know FOOM had a great time in the game, and had no problems with being camped. Come on, they are still on alpha waiting to come back. You're clearly an original member. Push em to the limits, foom will come back and fill up another set of targets we could have used.

People could have waited on foom,more targets let them grow, then enjoy the fights. Didn't happen.

29 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-03-06 13:38:13)

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Mara Kaid Pirate of Nia wrote:
Cobalt wrote:

Mara what you say is nonsense. When engaged in a confrontation against other players, whatever the game is, you dont have to refrain from pushing the foe to its limits.

Yes Cobalt, assuming you really came from FOOM you know exactly what you're talking about. We all know FOOM had a great time in the game, and had no problems with being camped. Come on, they are still on alpha waiting to come back. You're clearly an original member. Push em to the limits, foom will come back and fill up another set of targets we could have used.

People could have waited on foom,more targets let them grow, then enjoy the fights. Didn't happen.

The down side also of such a small game world .... we are so damn close theres no room for new young corps to get out into beta find their feet AND GROW lol .....

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Your ironical style just unsuccesfully try to hide the fact that you cannot contradict me with any valid argument. Its not the player job to know when to stop hitting, its the referee, in that case the devteam, that need to prevent what you call "griefing". I dont come from FOOM, but what is sure is that you dont know more than me what your talking about.

  Any action made by a player, or a group of players, within the ruleset edicted by the developers, is the responsibilty of said developer. If those actions end up with bad game experience or peoples leaving the game, not any of the acting player can be considered responsible of that. Only the peoples that dictate the rules. Try to contradict that...

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Cobalt wrote:

Your ironical style just unsuccesfully try to hide the fact that you cannot contradict me with any valid argument. Its not the player job to know when to stop hitting, its the referee, in that case the devteam, that need to prevent what you call "griefing". I dont come from FOOM, but what is sure is that you dont know more than me what your talking about.

  Any action made by a player, or a group of players, within the ruleset edicted by the developers, is the responsibilty of said developer. If those actions end up with bad game experience or peoples leaving the game, not any of the acting player can be considered responsible of that. Only the peoples that dictate the rules. Try to contradict that...

Sandbox design implies that players shape game experiences for themselves. And potentially ruin experiences of others. No ruleset can fix this without butchering the sandbox component, the freedom that we are after.

Freedom vs responsibility applies universally, in multiplayer videogames too.

/offtopic

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Lol Mark Zima , your speaking of the sandbox you WOULD LIKE to play. But not any of that sort exist already. I think of MO for example = griefer land. And many others are the same.

Im not talking of what we would like to see or what SHOULD happen if everyone played mature, im talking of what is happening now and there. No responsibility when no consequence, only freedom, to push the limits that is.

Its exactly the same with walls.  Some said "it was obvious that would be nerfed, you are dumb to push the limits"....  think twice now. Who is responsible? The guy who play by the rules and make something bad because the rule is poorly designed, or the rule designer?

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

There are two very basic problems with this game that stunt it's ability to grow:

1: Not enough players that join will keep playing beyond the trial.
2: Even if the player base was ten times larger there is not enough physical space to support them.

The game NEEDS Carebears. I know some people hate them for whatever reason but to have a strong basis for an economy you need people living on Alpha in safety doing solo content. The majority of economic activity in Eve Online comes from this part of the game - Mission runners lose ships and equipment and need to replace it or upgrade what they have. In exchange they inject money and other non-manufacturable resources into the economy which other players buy and turn into stuff to sell back to them.

Right now if you are an industrial player then it's very likely that you have to mine and gather 90% of your own resources to make anything. Buying off the market isn't viable because the supply for resources isn't there from random solo miners and the demand for your goods isn't there from random solo mission runners.

The above can be solved by somehow retaining more players and giving them things to do an Alpha. If you solve this though we have problem 2...

One person can farm a good spawn. There are maybe a dozen non-mission spawns per alpha island and competition for the best spawns is currently quite low (it's very rare that I go to my favoured spawn and find somebody else there). More players massively increases competition for these spawns. See also missions: Each mission has spawns that are public access. With an increased population large enough to support a decent economy we would see queues for mission spawns that would rival an Apple product launch. A sizeable population would also completely exhaust the existing alpha island ore and plant resources in no time. The amount of physical space available has to increase significantly to enable a larger population.

Gamma islands will not solve either of these problems. They will be lawless territories controlled by powerful corporations that can afford the structures. They are not going to attract Billy Mission Runner into the game and off of Alpha. It's adding end-game content when there is barely and early or mid-game content to speak of.

One final fact that CCP have learnt at last in Eve: If people do not want to PvP there is no incentive large enough to tempt them into non-consensual combat. You can't force people to leave Empire in Eve and you can't force people to leave Alpha here. This means that if Alpha gets boring people don't move to Beta - they move to a different game entirely.

34 (edited by Egil 2012-03-06 18:38:27)

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

The Major wrote:

Gamma islands will not solve either of these problems. They will be lawless territories controlled by powerful corporations that can afford the structures. They are not going to attract Billy Mission Runner into the game and off of Alpha. It's adding end-game content when there is barely and early or mid-game content to speak of.

When gamma-islands appear make the current beta-islands into alpha islands? hmm

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Egil wrote:
The Major wrote:

Gamma islands will not solve either of these problems. They will be lawless territories controlled by powerful corporations that can afford the structures. They are not going to attract Billy Mission Runner into the game and off of Alpha. It's adding end-game content when there is barely and early or mid-game content to speak of.

When gamma-islands appear make the current beta-islands into alpha islands? hmm

But then gamma will be just "one jump" from alpha which leads to so many of our current problems with beta.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Why not, when introducing gamma islands, introducing same type of islands, but without pvp and without player terraforming/PBS, only NPC ones?

Obviously, devs would have to develop the idea some of us had to permit NPBS and even NPC terraforming routines.  Now you got very interesting pve content in the way that each npc base is new and different, and that devs can adjust npc base/construction rate/spawn etc.. to the population and pve demand.  Pve is soooo boring in this game, even with good IA, the IA alone does nothing except more challenge, more bugs and more time to farm.

So who is for "epsilon" or whatever islands, where npcs roam freely, find spots to build their bases, terraform, construct, even mine stuff. With challenge. With good incentive (loot) to destroy a full settlement. Without PVP. Lorewise its credible. And i dont think its sooo much work on the IA side. That would attract many many new/old gamers back to the game.

Dont it surprise you that in this mmo, and its almost the only one where PVE "HL" or endgame whatever you call it, you can make it at 2 or 3 skilled players no more.  Sup obs? A vaga mk2 and a good dps and its done....

WHERE are the threat that need 20+ players to kill?  I dont think of big mobs, i think of big bases. PBS can easily become NPBS...

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Egil wrote:
The Major wrote:

Gamma islands will not solve either of these problems. They will be lawless territories controlled by powerful corporations that can afford the structures. They are not going to attract Billy Mission Runner into the game and off of Alpha. It's adding end-game content when there is barely and early or mid-game content to speak of.

When gamma-islands appear make the current beta-islands into alpha islands? hmm

I think you underestimate how much bigger the population needs to get to support a real economy.

We don't need double the number of islands. We need ten times the number of islands.

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Increase sizes, not numbers. We need continents, not islands.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
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http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

The Major wrote:
Egil wrote:
The Major wrote:

Gamma islands will not solve either of these problems. They will be lawless territories controlled by powerful corporations that can afford the structures. They are not going to attract Billy Mission Runner into the game and off of Alpha. It's adding end-game content when there is barely and early or mid-game content to speak of.

When gamma-islands appear make the current beta-islands into alpha islands? hmm

I think you underestimate how much bigger the population needs to get to support a real economy.

We don't need double the number of islands. We need ten times the number of islands.

I fully agree.

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

The issue i see with Gamma expansion is -> it wont offer anything for the carebear faction, nor improve the player retention at the beginner level.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Cobalt wrote:

Your ironical style just unsuccesfully try to hide the fact that you cannot contradict me with any valid argument. Its not the player job to know when to stop hitting, its the referee, in that case the devteam, that need to prevent what you call "griefing". I dont come from FOOM, but what is sure is that you dont know more than me what your talking about.

  Any action made by a player, or a group of players, within the ruleset edicted by the developers, is the responsibilty of said developer. If those actions end up with bad game experience or peoples leaving the game, not any of the acting player can be considered responsible of that. Only the peoples that dictate the rules. Try to contradict that...

They are constantly adjusting things to prevent griefing they do most of it through small tweaks that really only the greifer will notice.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Lemon wrote:
Cobalt wrote:

Your ironical style just unsuccesfully try to hide the fact that you cannot contradict me with any valid argument. Its not the player job to know when to stop hitting, its the referee, in that case the devteam, that need to prevent what you call "griefing". I dont come from FOOM, but what is sure is that you dont know more than me what your talking about.

  Any action made by a player, or a group of players, within the ruleset edicted by the developers, is the responsibilty of said developer. If those actions end up with bad game experience or peoples leaving the game, not any of the acting player can be considered responsible of that. Only the peoples that dictate the rules. Try to contradict that...

They are constantly adjusting things to prevent griefing they do most of it through small tweaks that really only the greifer will notice.

So you noticed? wink

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Egil wrote:
Lemon wrote:
Cobalt wrote:

Your ironical style just unsuccesfully try to hide the fact that you cannot contradict me with any valid argument. Its not the player job to know when to stop hitting, its the referee, in that case the devteam, that need to prevent what you call "griefing". I dont come from FOOM, but what is sure is that you dont know more than me what your talking about.

  Any action made by a player, or a group of players, within the ruleset edicted by the developers, is the responsibilty of said developer. If those actions end up with bad game experience or peoples leaving the game, not any of the acting player can be considered responsible of that. Only the peoples that dictate the rules. Try to contradict that...

They are constantly adjusting things to prevent griefing they do most of it through small tweaks that really only the greifer will notice.

So you noticed? wink

No comment

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

I hardly play anymore, but I'm keeping the account going ....


The Termis of Doom will be back .... once theres a affiliate program / refferal system going .... tongue

45 (edited by Ville 2012-03-08 15:01:28)

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Mara Kaid Pirate of Nia wrote:

Groups justified pushing others out in the game. They thought that they would become better through camping them in and consitently griefing them. Well, you get what you have now. Amazingly people hold to a *** idea that what they did was right in some way, but yet, look at what you have to fight now.

It's just simply stupid how groups justify their actions then wind up saying, 'well noone to fight now'

Take a gander at the killmail boards, it's a joke.

If people realized how they were disturbing the balance of the game when fighting, and taken a step back, perhaps it would have gone differently but that takes age and a bit of wisdom, neither of which I think people have.

WAR fuels the game, makes it interesting, at least war with interesting opponents! yarr

If there was some mechanic to fuel a huge influx of "alpha" dwellers and through that a continuing import of beta clans etc, that would work.

I'm sorry my B*llSh*t detector just went off.  This self righteous small gang and corp on corp pvp didn't stop your entire alliance from camping in Karapyth with the Use of 3 or more Corps attacking about 6 people.  62nd, War and the signal detecting wookienet corp. 

Your just as guilty of the same thing your accussing CIR and Choas of.  Everybody is guilty of the same sh*t.  We will ALL take advantage of an enemy when they are weak.  Speaking of that, 62nd is the crusaders of pyscological degarding, insulting, and downright idiotic comments of the killboards.  I have no respect for yours and your corp and I am glad to see Kentagura burn.  Get sh*t on. wink

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

46 (edited by Rex Amelius 2012-03-08 19:59:00)

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Ville wrote:
Mara Kaid Pirate of Nia wrote:

More or less ...Kill only what you can eat or all your prey will die and you will starve!

I'm sorry my B*llSh*t detector just went off.  This self righteous small gang and corp on corp pvp didn't stop your entire alliance from camping in Karapyth with the Use of 3 or more Corps attacking about 6 people.  62nd, War and the signal detecting wookienet corp.

In reference to Mara's general statement...
Call it self-righteous or call it and unfortunate symptom of a pathetically low player population. But don't call it bullshit. I've heard Mara make this general argument countless times on comms. It doesn't mean everyone agrees with it and applies it.

In reference to Ville's accusations of "the entire alliance" ...
I'm assuming that the 'Karapyth camping' you refer to occurred in the week or two before the introduction of walls. Perhaps I'm mistaken about which campaign you're referring, but I think it's the one where two guys, one from 62nd and one from WAR spent several days (maybe 10) rampaging accross Norhoop taking SAPS and preying on miners. Two guys did that with several accounts, way too many hours of free time, an alt corp and perhaps the occasional straggler from 62nd or WAR to aid them.

This game has way to few people playing it when two guys can make such and impact that it should take an alliance to make.

This game has way too few people playing it when we have to conserve our prey for the promise of future meals.

Sparking to other games

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

That's about the center to my argument. If you kill to many you starve. Guess those TOG-wings must be tasty, because that's what I'm seeing on the killboard.

We could have had some constant awesome prey to eat. FOOM, AET, more F-navy, other groups, but people pushed too hard, and because of joint factors between us pushing and the game mechanics, we have little left.

I do place the majority of it on the players, while Cobalt focused it on the developers.

Good thing is I meet lots of other players that understand this, so we as hunters aren't a small population after alll.

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

When i ear you guys speak of prey, meal and eat, it makes me laugh. What you think you some sort of ultimate predators at the top of the "food chain"? You just some nolives with too much time on their hands and certainly a big inferiority complex irl.

Give up your superior posture maybe youll enjoy more the game.

Maybe you starve just because many peoples realize the server is full of ***?  lol

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Cobalt wrote:

You guys take yourself very serious

Why yes, yes we do... There's a distinct mental process where I am wearing my uga-booga pants and hunting mask and big rubber black light saber. I stalk upon my prey and do self-narratives, till I find it then I pounce upon it and thrust.

After so many self-narratives it gets old neutral

Re: Ok someone has to say it.

Rex Amelius wrote:
Ville wrote:
Mara Kaid Pirate of Nia wrote:

More or less ...Kill only what you can eat or all your prey will die and you will starve!

I'm sorry my B*llSh*t detector just went off.  This self righteous small gang and corp on corp pvp didn't stop your entire alliance from camping in Karapyth with the Use of 3 or more Corps attacking about 6 people.  62nd, War and the signal detecting wookienet corp.

In reference to Mara's general statement...
Call it self-righteous or call it and unfortunate symptom of a pathetically low player population. But don't call it bullshit. I've heard Mara make this general argument countless times on comms. It doesn't mean everyone agrees with it and applies it.

In reference to Ville's accusations of "the entire alliance" ...
I'm assuming that the 'Karapyth camping' you refer to occurred in the week or two before the introduction of walls. Perhaps I'm mistaken about which campaign you're referring, but I think it's the one where two guys, one from 62nd and one from WAR spent several days (maybe 10) rampaging accross Norhoop taking SAPS and preying on miners. Two guys did that with several accounts, way too many hours of free time, an alt corp and perhaps the occasional straggler from 62nd or WAR to aid them.

This game has way to few people playing it when two guys can make such and impact that it should take an alliance to make.

This game has way too few people playing it when we have to conserve our prey for the promise of future meals.


umm... We killed Peanutbutter fine and the occasional idiot that tagged along, if thats what your refering to as "two" people, but I distinctly remember engaging fair numbers with your alliance, having a general decent fight and 4~6 heavys pouring through Kara 2 to reinforce.  Maybe your memory also got a decay with walls smile

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.