Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Annihilator wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

I think access routes or pipes if you want to call them need to be natural. So in that case, I would guess a natural direct route or pipe from Alpha to Gamma could and would occur.

I would not force all traffic to Gamma islands through Beta islands.

The routes currently in game are so predictable, I would hate to see this be repeated.

there are deployable inter-island teleporting devices, that enable you to jump between islands that have no permanent connections. They just need to be close enough to each other.

basing connections upon that would make different "main" routes for Trading and Combat forces wink

Very true.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Gremrod wrote:
Caribdis wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

I would say at least 40 or 50 gamma islands.

You should only be able to access them from beta 2 islands.

No direct access from any alpha.

I think access routes or pipes if you want to call them need to be natural. So in that case, I would guess a natural direct route or pipe from Alpha to Gamma could and would occur.

I would not force all traffic to Gamma islands through Beta islands.

The routes currently in game are so predictable, I would hate to see this be repeated.

As Anni said inter island TP is one way however I do not think that someone should be able to get to a gamma island at all from ANY alpha.

It all goes back to Risk vs Reward. Why would someone bother to do much of anything significant with terraforming or pbs when they are just a teleport away from every alpha based corp that wants to go roam about? Having to go through beta 2 to get to a gamma island means that an attacker has to risk their force to even attempt to damage some pbs structure. No access from alpha also means that a corp that wishes to "own" a gamma island must either risk doing all of their industry(mining and production) on gamma or run logistics to and from alpha for supplies. The gamma owner must take a RISK either way to enjoy the reward of terraforming and pbs.

Having gamma islands attached to alpha gives us nothing more then we have now with beta islands except you get to rearrange the dirt.....

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Having to go trough several islands to access a specific island would also improve the feeling of "big world" that we really dont have actually.

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Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Keep in mind, that these are going to be frontier Islands, with no outposts to dock up and change fits on, or to store goods in, no markets to buy charges or wall segments. No safe harbors. No place to set your home to if you die.

There isn't going to be anyone 'living' out on gamma until they get an outpost built.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Arga wrote:

Keep in mind, that these are going to be frontier Islands, with no outposts to dock up and change fits on, or to store goods in, no markets to buy charges or wall segments. No safe harbors. No place to set your home to if you die.

There isn't going to be anyone 'living' out on gamma until they get an outpost built.

Thats the risk!

Think about how the real frontiersman did it-- Conestoga Wagons!!!!!!! Well in our case we can call them Conestoga Scarabs!

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Caribdis wrote:

As Anni said inter island TP is one way however I do not think that someone should be able to get to a gamma island at all from ANY alpha.

It all goes back to Risk vs Reward. Why would someone bother to do much of anything significant with terraforming or pbs when they are just a teleport away from every alpha based corp that wants to go roam about? Having to go through beta 2 to get to a gamma island means that an attacker has to risk their force to even attempt to damage some pbs structure. No access from alpha also means that a corp that wishes to "own" a gamma island must either risk doing all of their industry(mining and production) on gamma or run logistics to and from alpha for supplies. The gamma owner must take a RISK either way to enjoy the reward of terraforming and pbs.

Having gamma islands attached to alpha gives us nothing more then we have now with beta islands except you get to rearrange the dirt.....

I assume that Gamma islands are not the lands of milk and honey.... why should they NOT be a connection to alpha, when you need to go the the third gamma island away from alpha, to get what is only availiable there?

The risk of Gamma seems to be the lack of docking possibilities and lack of infrastructure and well... the lack of static minin spots that you can just build a wall around.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Annihilator wrote:
Caribdis wrote:

As Anni said inter island TP is one way however I do not think that someone should be able to get to a gamma island at all from ANY alpha.

It all goes back to Risk vs Reward. Why would someone bother to do much of anything significant with terraforming or pbs when they are just a teleport away from every alpha based corp that wants to go roam about? Having to go through beta 2 to get to a gamma island means that an attacker has to risk their force to even attempt to damage some pbs structure. No access from alpha also means that a corp that wishes to "own" a gamma island must either risk doing all of their industry(mining and production) on gamma or run logistics to and from alpha for supplies. The gamma owner must take a RISK either way to enjoy the reward of terraforming and pbs.

Having gamma islands attached to alpha gives us nothing more then we have now with beta islands except you get to rearrange the dirt.....

I assume that Gamma islands are not the lands of milk and honey.... why should they NOT be a connection to alpha, when you need to go the the third gamma island away from alpha, to get what is only availiable there?

The risk of Gamma seems to be the lack of docking possibilities and lack of infrastructure and well... the lack of static minin spots that you can just build a wall around.

The only reason that one would want them connected to alpha was so all the alpha bears could play with the new features... Bad reason. It encourages the same crap we have now with beta islands. At the slightest threat just pull a single jump away to alpha.... Without isolating gamma there is no reason to stay there and develop it when any random player can just make a single jump to safety or the residents of said gammas don't have to actually occupy the island to defend it... Just call them beta 3 islands.......

108 (edited by Sundial 2012-03-01 01:36:39)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Caribdis wrote:
Annihilator wrote:
Caribdis wrote:

As Anni said inter island TP is one way however I do not think that someone should be able to get to a gamma island at all from ANY alpha.

It all goes back to Risk vs Reward. Why would someone bother to do much of anything significant with terraforming or pbs when they are just a teleport away from every alpha based corp that wants to go roam about? Having to go through beta 2 to get to a gamma island means that an attacker has to risk their force to even attempt to damage some pbs structure. No access from alpha also means that a corp that wishes to "own" a gamma island must either risk doing all of their industry(mining and production) on gamma or run logistics to and from alpha for supplies. The gamma owner must take a RISK either way to enjoy the reward of terraforming and pbs.

Having gamma islands attached to alpha gives us nothing more then we have now with beta islands except you get to rearrange the dirt.....

I assume that Gamma islands are not the lands of milk and honey.... why should they NOT be a connection to alpha, when you need to go the the third gamma island away from alpha, to get what is only availiable there?

The risk of Gamma seems to be the lack of docking possibilities and lack of infrastructure and well... the lack of static minin spots that you can just build a wall around.

The only reason that one would want them connected to alpha was so all the alpha bears could play with the new features... Bad reason. It encourages the same crap we have now with beta islands. At the slightest threat just pull a single jump away to alpha.... Without isolating gamma there is no reason to stay there and develop it when any random player can just make a single jump to safety or the residents of said gammas don't have to actually occupy the island to defend it... Just call them beta 3 islands.......

QFT, thats pretty much everything that is wrong with the game currently combined with the fact the game world is so small people can mount effective offensives from alpha in complete safety.

There shouldn't be a connection to alpha so living there is not a complete and utter joke.

I don't want gamma islands to feel like beta islands with terraforming, I wan't them to feel like the wild freakin west...

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

109 (edited by Gremrod 2012-03-01 01:42:08)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Caribdis wrote:
Annihilator wrote:
Caribdis wrote:

As Anni said inter island TP is one way however I do not think that someone should be able to get to a gamma island at all from ANY alpha.

It all goes back to Risk vs Reward. Why would someone bother to do much of anything significant with terraforming or pbs when they are just a teleport away from every alpha based corp that wants to go roam about? Having to go through beta 2 to get to a gamma island means that an attacker has to risk their force to even attempt to damage some pbs structure. No access from alpha also means that a corp that wishes to "own" a gamma island must either risk doing all of their industry(mining and production) on gamma or run logistics to and from alpha for supplies. The gamma owner must take a RISK either way to enjoy the reward of terraforming and pbs.

Having gamma islands attached to alpha gives us nothing more then we have now with beta islands except you get to rearrange the dirt.....

I assume that Gamma islands are not the lands of milk and honey.... why should they NOT be a connection to alpha, when you need to go the the third gamma island away from alpha, to get what is only availiable there?

The risk of Gamma seems to be the lack of docking possibilities and lack of infrastructure and well... the lack of static minin spots that you can just build a wall around.

The only reason that one would want them connected to alpha was so all the alpha bears could play with the new features... Bad reason. It encourages the same crap we have now with beta islands. At the slightest threat just pull a single jump away to alpha.... Without isolating gamma there is no reason to stay there and develop it when any random player can just make a single jump to safety or the residents of said gammas don't have to actually occupy the island to defend it... Just call them beta 3 islands.......

Well I can agree with you too a certain point. Not all gamma islands should be connect to Alpha, but I will disagree that on the part about no Alpha connections to Gamma at all.

Just because someone can jump straight onto a Gamma islands doesn't mean you will be able to play with the features or content of a Gamma island 100% free and safe. So there is still a risk vs. reward there.

Just because a single or couple straight Alpha to Gamma island connections exist doesn't mean we will end up with the same problems now.

But you could be right. Maybe it would end up like it is now. I think the connections are something that could be added later if needed.

I am more concerned about there being a large amount of Gamma islands in general. And less worried about how they are connected to alpha or if they will be connected to alpha at all.

I have heard this comment many times from new players.

I opened the map and was wondering something.... Why is the world so small?

My answer 90% of the time is: "Good question!"

10% of the time: "Travel it with plates and no NAV 10 and you will find out how small it is... tongue"

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

110

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Making a rule that NO gamma can be connected to alpha is wrong.

It will make the game more interesting and the Island dynamics better if access to the gamma islands was more diverse. That is, some islands have alpha/beta access, some have beta only access, and others are only connected to other gamma islands.

The gamma connected to alpha is going to have an advantage of quick access to outposts and trading, at the expense of being easily raided; as well as having to worry about the beta routes.

The Beta access islands will be much more challenging, since they will be further off of the safe routes, but with a buffer zone that allows corps to engage raiders on beta before the can even get to the gamma.

Gamma access only, is going to be a real logistical challenge, but with full TF on both sides of the teleporter, it can allow for much more complicated defense structures that would span multiple islands.

Don't dismiss the risk and game play possiblity of having gamma connected to alpha out-right because of PVP elitisms. The more players that experience and exploit gamma the better the game will be. Its a PVP enable zone, just like beta, which is going to make it as dangerous as any other PVP enabled island.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Remote islands promote self-sufficiency and inhibit trade (in particular, raw material trade).
Makes no sense for a game that's built around virtual economy.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Raw material trade inhibition happens only when every material is dispatched evenly trough the whole world.

Make some ressource localisation and you have both long range haul/trade AND pvp incentives.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Mark Zima wrote:

Remote islands promote self-sufficiency and inhibit trade (in particular, raw material trade).
Makes no sense for a game that's built around virtual economy.

Counterpoint: Eve

Also, I don't think theres much choice but to have some connections from Alpha. One connection from each beta Island would just be perma camped, you need multiple routes to places.

114 (edited by Mark Zima 2012-03-01 16:17:44)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:
Mark Zima wrote:

Remote islands promote self-sufficiency and inhibit trade (in particular, raw material trade).
Makes no sense for a game that's built around virtual economy.

Counterpoint: Eve

Jumpfreighter is where? Rorquall is where? I knew someone would bring an irrelevant EVE comparison...

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Mark Zima wrote:
Dazamin wrote:
Mark Zima wrote:

Remote islands promote self-sufficiency and inhibit trade (in particular, raw material trade).
Makes no sense for a game that's built around virtual economy.

Counterpoint: Eve

Jumpfreighter is where? Rorquall is where? I knew someone would bring an irrelevant EVE comparison...

Inter-Island Teleport is where???

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Caribdis wrote:
Mark Zima wrote:
Dazamin wrote:

Counterpoint: Eve

Jumpfreighter is where? Rorquall is where? I knew someone would bring an irrelevant EVE comparison...

Inter-Island Teleport is where???

NYEWM. For their price, inter-islands are totally useless. 15mil to transport 2-3 scarabs one-way? The problem is volume and price per volume, not the time of one-way trip.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Mark Zima wrote:
Caribdis wrote:
Mark Zima wrote:

Jumpfreighter is where? Rorquall is where? I knew someone would bring an irrelevant EVE comparison...

Inter-Island Teleport is where???

NYEWM. For their price, inter-islands are totally useless. 15mil to transport 2-3 scarabs one-way? The problem is volume and price per volume, not the time of one-way trip.

Its 10 mil now, but its still not worth it.

Trading raw materials over distance won't be worth it anywhere anytime soon until we have the tools to do so.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

118 (edited by Dazamin 2012-03-01 17:21:17)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Yeah I accept the issues with hauling atm, just making the point that a large gameworld in itself does not stop the formation of trading hubs, etc. I actually think with all these PBS modules that will need to be moved everywhere, this might not be a bad time for a bigger bot than the scarab smile

EDIT: perhaps the easier solution would be a reduction in the size of raw mats & commodities? Can anyone more industrially minded than me tell me why I am wrong and that this in fact is a terrible idea smile

119 (edited by Sundial 2012-03-01 17:44:07)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:

Yeah I accept the issues with hauling atm, just making the point that a large gameworld in itself does not stop the formation of trading hubs, etc. I actually think with all these PBS modules that will need to be moved everywhere, this might not be a bad time for a bigger bot than the scarab smile

EDIT: perhaps the easier solution would be a reduction in the size of raw mats & commodities? Can anyone more industrially minded than me tell me why I am wrong and that this in fact is a terrible idea smile

Commodities in this game are only like 75% the volume of the actual ore as you may have discovered, which is why no one even bothers trading them really.

I think a good start would be reducing them down to 25% or lower.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

120

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

An interesting question is if PBS outposts will have anything seeded to them. I don't think this is likely, which means all walls, bombs, ect will need to be hauled in; and incidentally, all plasma will need to be hauled out for sale. This alone will greatly reduce the occurances of isolationism.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

if they had anyting seeded by npcs, it would be a fail, dont you think?

I think the interesting question is how Trading with neutral player will be handled. One of the basics for survival of a player built settlement will be its hidden location. How will you put up trading offers on the Market without revealing your location?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Annihilator wrote:

if they had anyting seeded by npcs, it would be a fail, dont you think?

Yes

Annihilator wrote:

I think the interesting question is how Trading with neutral player will be handled. One of the basics for survival of a player built settlement will be its hidden location. How will you put up trading offers on the Market without revealing your location?

If you run a PBS outpost and want it to stay hidden it is a very straight forward approach. You have to haul your stuff back to alpha to sell on the market.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

123

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Annihilator wrote:

if they had anyting seeded by npcs, it would be a fail, dont you think?

I think the interesting question is how Trading with neutral player will be handled. One of the basics for survival of a player built settlement will be its hidden location. How will you put up trading offers on the Market without revealing your location?

Either you'll build a second outpost for trading near the TP, or you'll put buy orders up on your sister corp's beta outpost or alpha.

There's so much eve cross-over mentaility here, where players are thinking 'Gamma will be like living in a worm-hole, or living in 0.0 space".

This is a land based game, some corps may station in specific locations, but they'll still be an inter-dependance on all the Island types. How corps or alliances choose to deal with that dependancy will be up to them.

How the islands inter-connect, how many are generated, and what resources are available on those islands will be the deciding factors in how trade develops.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

1) PBS & Outposts are not necessarily the same thing, I've not seen anything to make me think there will be outposts on Gamma (If someone else has, please share).

2) People aren't going to want neutrals on their Island, unless theres a HUGE advantage to it. Its not an Eve crossover thing, its how this game is.

125

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:

1) PBS & Outposts are not necessarily the same thing, I've not seen anything to make me think there will be outposts on Gamma (If someone else has, please share).

2) People aren't going to want neutrals on their Island, unless theres a HUGE advantage to it. Its not an Eve crossover thing, its how this game is.


You'll need to build an outpost to dock and refine at, outposts will be PBS's, but not all PBS's will be outposts.

The cross-over is in the view of the relationship between islands, alpha, beta, gamma, as being parallels to high, low , and no sec space.