Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:

As for the Island numbers, and sorry to compare to the 'other game' but I would say that the Eve devs making a huge game world to start with was one of the smartest things they did, you will have to search hard for anyone either then or now who feels the large game world is a negative part of the game. I'm not really sure what people think will happen with a lot of Islands? The vast majority of players will still form into groups that will occupy one or more Islands. Some will live in the middle of nowhere, some will live close to Alpha, PvP corps will live close to areas of population, some corps will go out and explore. Some Islands will be completely empty, but I don't see that as a major problem, if anything, it will add a nice sense of scale to the game, of large areas of unexplored land just waiting for some enterprising corp to set up there.

Very well put! I don't see the downside of a bigger world. It stimulates small corps because there's no room for them on beta. It's sad that small groups can't do their thing without joining a bigger group.

Arga wrote:

Devs can always add more land in, taking it away is more complicated. My suggestion is simply to release a small amount of gamma islands. 2 new items, and 2 major adjustments later, a more conservative approach may be less distruptive.

I however don't see a reason not to expand it gradually either. Just as long as it gets big eventually. smile

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Egil wrote:
Dazamin wrote:

As for the Island numbers, and sorry to compare to the 'other game' but I would say that the Eve devs making a huge game world to start with was one of the smartest things they did, you will have to search hard for anyone either then or now who feels the large game world is a negative part of the game. I'm not really sure what people think will happen with a lot of Islands? The vast majority of players will still form into groups that will occupy one or more Islands. Some will live in the middle of nowhere, some will live close to Alpha, PvP corps will live close to areas of population, some corps will go out and explore. Some Islands will be completely empty, but I don't see that as a major problem, if anything, it will add a nice sense of scale to the game, of large areas of unexplored land just waiting for some enterprising corp to set up there.

Very well put! I don't see the downside of a bigger world. It stimulates small corps because there's no room for them on beta. It's sad that small groups can't do their thing without joining a bigger group.

Arga wrote:

Devs can always add more land in, taking it away is more complicated. My suggestion is simply to release a small amount of gamma islands. 2 new items, and 2 major adjustments later, a more conservative approach may be less distruptive.

I however don't see a reason not to expand it gradually either. Just as long as it gets big eventually. smile

Would be interesting to see what happened if they did put something like 500 to 1000 gamma islands in at one time.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Gremrod wrote:

Would be interesting to see what happened if they did put something like 500 to 1000 gamma islands in at one time.

well as i said before... pll tend to do stupid things, and there is a reason not to overdo things. you want a thousand islands? we dont even have a thousand players, even more we dont even have close to a thousand players that would be intrested in gamma or terraforming.

but this sounds nice. you just need to walk 4 hours to get to that carebare corp that build themself a outpost on the most remote isle just to kill their 2 lonly miners. then you can walk 4 hous back. sure this will be worth the fun. because you did a great job. you showed then that there is someone else besides them in that gameworld. they should realy be thankfull.

sometimes i realy ask my self if ppl think before they post... and sometimes i ask myself if they have the ability to think at all (sry pls dont take that personal)

54 (edited by Celebro 2012-02-24 18:00:41)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

There are around 5400 solar systems in eve It was not even crowded and added 2500 wormhole systems with an average of 3 connect to it. What happened after wormholes? More players came to explore/colonize or farm.

Make a large enough space and people will fill it, make 100 gamma islands see how it goes.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Kaldenines wrote:

Edit: I am amazed you can't see that what you are suggesting would, if not kill the game, make it so there is so little competition between players (in pvp or on the maket) that it would esentially become a single player game.

I'm not suggesting players wall themselves in, you've presented that as one of the possiblities players will choose to use terraforming for.

What I'm saying is that the terraforming mechanic shouldn't explicitly STOP anyone from terraforming terrain to be impassable.

As a side note, the multiplayer in MMO doesn't mean group play, solo play is just as valid a pursuit in an MMO. You can't force people to play together just because the genre of the game as multiplayer in it; same thing if a group chooses to try to isloate themselves.

If a group of friends chooses to take umbrage at this other group's attempt at isolation, then they can do something about it in the game, since this is a FFA PVP environment. If there's PBS on the other side of that 2 hours of terraforming, then you'll either get a fight when you get through, or cause a ton of damage.

And directly to your point, what you call isloation, others call defense. Why should anyone get to chose which definetion of impassable terrain is correct?

56 (edited by Sundial 2012-02-24 18:36:43)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Some people want to move as far away as possible and live on their own slice of land.
Some people want constant conflict
Some people want to live in complete safety
Some people want to live in large concentrations of players for commerce
Some people want to just roam from place to place trading goods / hunting down rare things.

A bigger game world just means you won't be able to roam everything in a few hours, effecitvely lowering any one groups control over what happens in it.

In this games history we have typically seen large entitites control the entire game world more than just a couple times. I personally think this is a bad thing. Players need to be able to go build up somewhere without the approval of whoever controls the entire game or live in relative isolation if they wish.

PvP will still happen fine just like it does in EVE. I think it would be a mistake though to add 1000 islands. Double/tripple the gameworld would be a fine start.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Arga wrote:

I'm not suggesting players wall themselves in, you've presented that as one of the possiblities players will choose to use terraforming for.

I know what a crazy thought right, who would ever wall themselves in???? The issue is about overall gameplay, this is after all a game. Walls led to some of the most boring gameplay I have ever been a part of. I have no problem with walls, terraforming or whatever else assisting active players to defend themselves, but walls don't work like that and neither will unlimited terraforming, the purpose is to discourage other players from even visiting that Island by making it a giant pain in the ***, so the people behind the wall / hill can get on with their own private game of perpetuum.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Celebro wrote:

There are around 5400 solar systems in eve It was not even crowded and added 2500 wormhole systems with an average of 3 connect to it. What happened after wormholes? More players came to explore/colonize or farm.

Make a large enough space and people will fill it, make 100 gamma islands see how it goes.

I'm really not opposed to having a ton of land dropped in the game. The idea of a caravan of carebears heading out Thunderdome style into the wastes, driving for literally 12 hours straight, and setting up a home would be fantastic.

And I can also see small pvp corps heading out in this way too, building up and becoming empires.

The snag is the time frame. If everyone scatters into the void, the world will feel very empty (unlike TF/wall defense where you know where they are and can't get them) for a long time before players start coming back together.

Unless of course, the gamma islands have no Epitron on them. In which case, you can go as far as you want, you'll always need to come back to beta.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Syrissa wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

Would be interesting to see what happened if they did put something like 500 to 1000 gamma islands in at one time.

well as i said before... pll tend to do stupid things, and there is a reason not to overdo things. you want a thousand islands? we dont even have a thousand players, even more we dont even have close to a thousand players that would be intrested in gamma or terraforming.

but this sounds nice. you just need to walk 4 hours to get to that carebare corp that build themself a outpost on the most remote isle just to kill their 2 lonly miners. then you can walk 4 hous back. sure this will be worth the fun. because you did a great job. you showed then that there is someone else besides them in that gameworld. they should realy be thankfull.

sometimes i realy ask my self if ppl think before they post... and sometimes i ask myself if they have the ability to think at all (sry pls dont take that personal)

Well like Celebro said about EVE. 5K+ systems and the pop was low. Some people said it was weeks before they saw anyone else in game. And we know how that turned out, pretty damn good.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:
Arga wrote:

I'm not suggesting players wall themselves in, you've presented that as one of the possiblities players will choose to use terraforming for.

I know what a crazy thought right, who would ever wall themselves in???? The issue is about overall gameplay, this is after all a game. Walls led to some of the most boring gameplay I have ever been a part of. I have no problem with walls, terraforming or whatever else assisting active players to defend themselves, but walls don't work like that and neither will unlimited terraforming, the purpose is to discourage other players from even visiting that Island by making it a giant pain in the ***, so the people behind the wall / hill can get on with their own private game of perpetuum.

I have to disagree. Walls have presented me with some of the best gameplay I've had in Perp.

And , without question, if a corp gets established on a gamma Island it should absolutely be a Giant pain in the *** to visit that island. It has to be. When a corp has destructable assests like PBS, they simply can't be targets for small roaming groups. That's idiotic. Unless those PBS are cheap throw away items with little stratgetic value.

Perpetuum is not an RTS game like Starcraft. I don't picture PBS being something you build in a few minutes, then the other side comes over and trys to knock them out. If I and my corp have to spend a week gathering mats, NIC, Terraforming, and building PBS, but a roaming band of XX enemys can come over and blow it up in an hour during my off timezone. I'm not going to even bother building it. NOTHING can provide enough value to give a ROI if it can be destroyed in a fraction of the time it takes to build.

I don't care what Eve does with moon bases or rainbow unicorns.

If gamma is supposed to be for player built strutures, and those strutures have any amount of time and effort requirements, then the builders have to have some way to effectively defend them.

Now, if they implement the same SAP style defense, where pbs's aren't destructable until they are at 0%, then that's also an acceptable trade-off, since no single visit can result in destruction; the build time to destruction time is more balanced.

Which puts this in a position of, if corps can't TF freely, then they may as well not even include the raise/lower features, and just put in the smooth and level features which are needed for preparing the ground for PBS.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

You might not care what Eve does with POSes, but actually I think it applies just as well here. Timers, etc were put into Eve for precisely the reasons you are talking about. A PBS or any other structure should not be destroyable without you having a chance to defend it. I still hope the devs here will move from a completely random system to some kind of system where the players have some control over the timing, and for PBS I can't see anyway round having a multi stage destruction system. But again it comes down to the difference between a) Active players defending with assistance from defences they built, or b) Building big walls round everything and expecting the game to defend your assets for you.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:

a) Active players defending with assistance from defences they built, or b) Building big walls round everything and expecting the game to defend your assets for you.

I keep saying this, and I promise this is the last time. Walls and even TF can't defend anything, they can only slow attackers down.

If I put in the time and NIC to build big walls, its only fair the attackers have to spend NIC to blow them down; but they didn't stop anything, they just cost the attackers something (time/NIC) to counter my time and NIC.

If I TF a huge moat, it will take days to make a 360 degree moat, but the attacks only has to spend the time to make 1 tile bridge across it. If I'm not on the wall shooting you while you do it, the moat, the hours it took to build, and the nic for the charges was all wasted.

If I spend all that time, manpower, and NIC to moat off an epitron spot, it's just going to roam away; so there's no reason for me to use it, or for anyone to waste time attacking it.

63 (edited by Arga 2012-02-24 22:49:16)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Hmm.

So, we have the pathfinding capabilities...

But, just to look at both sides of the coin with Kal.

How would the system determine you've created an impassable terrain?

Slope capability is different for all bots, plus route detection needs a start and end point.

If there are no features on your island yet, and you create a 359 degree impassable slope for light bots around the external teleporter, but there's 1 tile open for all bots, that wouldn't be impassable yet.

When the TF goes to change that last tile, at what point does it become impassable, and impassable to where? If the slope stops hmechs, but not mechs or lights, its not impassable yet. If it only allows lights, thats still not impassable.  What if you then block it with a wall, that would make it impassable, but not using TF.

It also gets tricky because the route needs two sides. If I was on the TP side of the terrain, and closed it off, the route detection between my bot and the TP would still be OK, but it would cut off the rest of the Island.

Maybe if there was 1 point, in the middle of the Island, that was used as a test? But .. if you were on the 'inside' of the TP, that check would be OK. There will be more than 1 TP, so you could be cut off from 2 TP's from the current location, but still have access to a 3rd, would that be impassable?

Tl;dr - How would impassable checks work?

Edit: Moved to http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/62169/#p62169 since this about number of islands, and not about TF

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Give us more than 3 gamma islands, i would like to see at least 12 of them.
Make it so small corps can go out and find their little pice of land they can call home.
Players that like and want PvP will always manage to find ways to do it.

Also i would like to see some faction only ores that only can be found on the island of that faction.
And make it so PBS/new bots of different factions needs materials from that faction island.
This would make territory fighting more interesting and prosper trading.

make the game population grow into the world, not the world expand by the population!!

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Grond wrote:

Give us more than 3 gamma islands, i would like to see at least 12 of them.
Make it so small corps can go out and find their little pice of land they can call home.
Players that like and want PvP will always manage to find ways to do it.

Also i would like to see some faction only ores that only can be found on the island of that faction.
And make it so PBS/new bots of different factions needs materials from that faction island.
This would make territory fighting more interesting and prosper trading.

make the game population grow into the world, not the world expand by the population!!

this is the truth. imho min 8-12 new gamma islands

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:
Grond wrote:

Give us more than 3 gamma islands, i would like to see at least 12 of them.
Make it so small corps can go out and find their little pice of land they can call home.
Players that like and want PvP will always manage to find ways to do it.

Also i would like to see some faction only ores that only can be found on the island of that faction.
And make it so PBS/new bots of different factions needs materials from that faction island.
This would make territory fighting more interesting and prosper trading.

make the game population grow into the world, not the world expand by the population!!

this is the truth. imho min 8-12 new gamma islands


Quit thinking so small!!!!!!

67 (edited by Tux 2012-02-26 22:56:52)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:
Grond wrote:

Give us more than 3 gamma islands, i would like to see at least 12 of them.
Make it so small corps can go out and find their little pice of land they can call home.
Players that like and want PvP will always manage to find ways to do it.

Also i would like to see some faction only ores that only can be found on the island of that faction.
And make it so PBS/new bots of different factions needs materials from that faction island.
This would make territory fighting more interesting and prosper trading.

make the game population grow into the world, not the world expand by the population!!

this is the truth. imho min 8-12 new gamma islands


Quit thinking so small!!!!!!

/Agree .. think big if we keep getting held back this game will suffocate and die ... people need room to grow we need 30 + gamma islands not a measly 8-12... this game will never go anywhere if there isnt the space for people to not feel like sardines in a tin can.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

+ 1 for vast amount of (to be dicovered) Gamma Islands.

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Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

im not a fan of bigger is better, but maybe here it will work. still too big also is not good. but i agree that at least 2 more "layers" of islands around the now existing ones would be nice.

70 (edited by Gremrod 2012-02-27 18:31:10)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

When EVE launched they did not have only 20 systems and brought the rest later. They had 5k+ right from the start. This aloud for players to set out to build where they saw fit.

Yes people talk about not seeing other players for weeks. But they still played. All they had to do in the beginning was mine and build.

This let corps build empires in lawless regions etc. This to me seems to be a natural route to take. Let the players build and they will meet someplace in between to fight for areas etc.

Back to EVE. As the game grew, they fought for pipes with better access to high-sec. They fought for systems with moons that had better resources.


Give the players a world and they will fill it with their own content.

If you give players a small neighborhood where everyone knows everyone.  And they get the same utilities (Gas, water, electric), they will build walls around one another. They will become comfortable and will not choose to seek out anything new. Because there is nothing else new they need.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

+1 to lots of space.
It would also be nice if there were rare, scarce, distributed resources out there to be discovered.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Kaldenines wrote:

+1 to lots of space.
It would also be nice if there were rare, scarce, distributed resources out there to be discovered.

Repeating this, as its just as important as having lots of Islands. Differences in Islands are important, whether it be resources, NPCs or simply routes to Alpha.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

At this point, I'd be happy just to see the next blog post.

74 (edited by Sundial 2012-02-27 22:04:16)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

to reballance recources it should work a bit like this imo:

EDIT:
New super awesome recources (tm) should be gamma only and split between factional islands. Gamma should have titan, but no epriton. That way beta is not obslete and gamma is not independant.

I also agree gamma islands should have different / unique routes into alpha to make some more desireable. Let some people go really far out and let some people stay within a few teleports.

As for NPCs I would think they should be unique to the zones somewhat maybe crossing over a bit on borders. The game already does a good job here.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Gremrod wrote:

When EVE launched they did not have only 20 systems and brought the rest later. They had 5k+ right from the start. This aloud for players to set out to build where they saw fit.

Yes people talk about not seeing other players for weeks. But they still played. All they had to do in the beginning was mine and build.

This let corps build empires in lawless regions etc. This to me seems to be a natural route to take. Let the players build and they will meet someplace in between to fight for areas etc.

Back to EVE. As the game grew, they fought for pipes with better access to high-sec. They fought for systems with moons that had better resources.


Give the players a world and they will fill it with their own content.

If you give players a small neighborhood where everyone knows everyone.  And they get the same utilities (Gas, water, electric), they will build walls around one another. They will become comfortable and will not choose to seek out anything new. Because there is nothing else new they need.


+1, very well written smile
With a big world, with a lot of variety and diversity, exploration will be fun, the community will grow, and trade aswell as drama will come naturally.