26

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

A really good way to balance the islands and the new resources that will be introduced is to make each Island type have 2 or 3 minerals that are tied to it by faction. And these new minerals are only found on the new gamma islands of their specific faction ( Green, Blue, Red, ) indy can be mixed to all.

What I mean by all of this is new PBS outpost and deployable structures should be made by players, the players will need to mine these new resources and these resources will go in to making faction buildings. This makes sense because all the different factions have different building skins.

The next step would be to add this to new T5 and above modules … could even add in new fragments only found on these islands.

Next step add this to new MK3 and or new model Mech construction.. you want that MK3 seth you need to go mine the mins on a red gamma island or trade with a player corp who lives on one, also they may want the stuff you have because they cant get it.

These things will make commerce between all factions and corps / alliances work well as well as bring in a lot of PVP.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

27 (edited by Tux 2012-02-22 22:40:44)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Gremrod wrote:

The is what is wrong:


Q: Do they has stuff we want?
A: No. We have all the same stuff because we can get the stuff we need without having to fight them for it.

Q: Does their island has stuff we don't have on our island?
A: No. We have all the same stuffs on our island.

Edit: This is what the game has now.

Q: So why do we fight?
A: Because we built all these combat mechs and need to use them for something.


This is what it needs.

Q: Can I get X resource on our island?
A: No. You have to get it from their island.

Q: How do we build a lot of X item? Because we need them for A. - Activity - B. Research - C. Production.
A: Hmm. I guess we go to war for that island over there since they have X resource we need.


All the gamma islands in the world mean nothing if the above is not fixed and done.

+1 and /agree I think this was broken from the start and could be fixed with gamma islands.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Tux wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

The is what is wrong:


Q: Do they has stuff we want?
A: No. We have all the same stuff because we can get the stuff we need without having to fight them for it.

Q: Does their island has stuff we don't have on our island?
A: No. We have all the same stuffs on our island.

Edit: This is what the game has now.

Q: So why do we fight?
A: Because we built all these combat mechs and need to use them for something.


This is what it needs.

Q: Can I get X resource on our island?
A: No. You have to get it from their island.

Q: How do we build a lot of X item? Because we need them for A. - Activity - B. Research - C. Production.
A: Hmm. I guess we go to war for that island over there since they have X resource we need.


All the gamma islands in the world mean nothing if the above is not fixed and done.

+1 and /agree I think this was broken from the start and could be fixed with gamma islands.

I wouldn't disagree with this, but I'd say its also a reason for having a decent number of Islands, one alliance locking down ALL of one resource isn't good. Player interaction isn't just PvP, this kind of system should foster competition but also cooperation, trade of these materials is a good thing too, so they need to be available enough to be be traded and not just kept in house, but restricted enough that buying it can be better than gathering it yourself. Its a tricky balance, but something that can maybe be achieved with a decent number of Islands, so if you're on a Green Island for example, the Red Islands are to far away to really defend your own extraction structures on them. But at the same time it would be hard to lock down all the green island resources to prevent smaller corps from extracting off a few of those Islands (Or destroying your extractors) and selling the materials on the market to enable them to buy what they want. Time to travel is a good way of limiting the sphere of influence of even the largest corps.

29 (edited by Gremrod 2012-02-22 23:23:51)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:
Tux wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

The is what is wrong:


Q: Do they has stuff we want?
A: No. We have all the same stuff because we can get the stuff we need without having to fight them for it.

Q: Does their island has stuff we don't have on our island?
A: No. We have all the same stuffs on our island.

Edit: This is what the game has now.

Q: So why do we fight?
A: Because we built all these combat mechs and need to use them for something.


This is what it needs.

Q: Can I get X resource on our island?
A: No. You have to get it from their island.

Q: How do we build a lot of X item? Because we need them for A. - Activity - B. Research - C. Production.
A: Hmm. I guess we go to war for that island over there since they have X resource we need.


All the gamma islands in the world mean nothing if the above is not fixed and done.

+1 and /agree I think this was broken from the start and could be fixed with gamma islands.

I wouldn't disagree with this, but I'd say its also a reason for having a decent number of Islands, one alliance locking down ALL of one resource isn't good. Player interaction isn't just PvP, this kind of system should foster competition but also cooperation, trade of these materials is a good thing too, so they need to be available enough to be be traded and not just kept in house, but restricted enough that buying it can be better than gathering it yourself. Its a tricky balance, but something that can maybe be achieved with a decent number of Islands, so if you're on a Green Island for example, the Red Islands are to far away to really defend your own extraction structures on them. But at the same time it would be hard to lock down all the green island resources to prevent smaller corps from extracting off a few of those Islands (Or destroying your extractors) and selling the materials on the market to enable them to buy what they want. Time to travel is a good way of limiting the sphere of influence of even the largest corps.

My points are not limited to just PVP. It is just one example. This all ties back to the fact that every island is the same.

I agree a lot of gamma islands would solve part of this issue. But a balance of resources are needed too.

That is even going the other way and making resources a little unbalanced.

Our current real world machines run or based on crude oil. While crude oil can be found all over the world. We also know there is one specific area of the world that has major amounts of it.

Now with that said. I don't think there should be one or two gamma islands that we call the middle east. But we need something to be different to push the war machine, the market, player trade, etc....

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Locking any resources to specific islands (and, by extension, specific groups of people) is a shortcut to disaster.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

and by that you mean it wouldnt be easy mode

Mark Zima wrote:

Locking any resources to specific islands (and, by extension, specific groups of people) is a shortcut to disaster.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Mark Zima wrote:

Locking any resources to specific islands (and, by extension, specific groups of people) is a shortcut to disaster.

I agree that is why I don't think they should be locked, but rather limited in amount rather then just nonexistent.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Gremrod wrote:
Mark Zima wrote:

Locking any resources to specific islands (and, by extension, specific groups of people) is a shortcut to disaster.

I agree that is why I don't think they should be locked, but rather limited in amount rather then just nonexistent.

I don't think that not having any of a particular resource in one area is a major problem tbh, providing that the resource is a) not overly concentrated in one area to avoid one group being able to lock off supply and b) The area with none of resource A has Resource B which is similarly limited to certain places. In fact I'd say that without some sort of system that at the very least unevenly distributes resources across the game world, a properly functioning market and any kind of meaningful empire building, etc is very difficult to achieve

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

No pool closures.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Yes!

Make lots!

I have always felt that dozens of island would have been better, although time consuming for Devs. but better.

Now with walls and whatever, players and corps would be able to get 'lost' if there were many places.

Sort of remind me of EVE back in the day when you may not see someone else from another group for a few days or weeks.

It would for sure bring lots of Alpha dudes out, imo

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Teleguy wrote:

It would for sure bring lots of Alpha dudes out, imo


This is a big deal, I think Gamma with terraforming, etc is going to be by far the most important part of this games success, which means the majority of players should be able to experience Gamma in some way. A few Gammas locked off like current inhabited Betas are, would exclude too many players imo.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Arga wrote:
Dazamin wrote:

Also having a 'good' Island, will to some extent paint a big target on your corp, everyone wants to bring the big guy down.

Yes. If your the King, being the King is good.

If your the little guy trying to fight the king, that's not so much fun.

1.: there is no king
2.: if there is a self proclaimed king with a larger e-pen then you have it still can have fun fight him. we did that long enough and it was fun. (no names given lol )

back to topic:
yes there should be a fifference in the islands. there should be some materials that are scatterd over the silands. and of cource you will need most of them. but there should be not a "better" island. there just ahve to be stuff that is avalibe here and other stuff that is avalible somewere else. so no island is better. so a single island will not to the job.

on the other hand this also has a downside. you just expect things to turn out the way you will like it. that ppl, corps, and alliances will trade or fight over it. i will predict another outcome. the STsyndic outcome. there will be at least one or maybe even two alliances that will try to get all that they need for themselfs. so they will make big powerblocks so that they can have all they want. and this will be bad for the game. as we have seen before.

so this is basicly a double edged sword. dont try to cut yourself. you may have a reverse efect even if you have the best intentions. humans like to do idiotic things just because its to their "benefit" or fits their ego.

dont get me wrong i like the idea of ilands with different resources and maybe other things that will bring pros and cons. but i think you have to be carefull with that.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Syrissa wrote:
Arga wrote:
Dazamin wrote:

Also having a 'good' Island, will to some extent paint a big target on your corp, everyone wants to bring the big guy down.

Yes. If your the King, being the King is good.

If your the little guy trying to fight the king, that's not so much fun.

1.: there is no king
2.: if there is a self proclaimed king with a larger e-pen then you have it still can have fun fight him. we did that long enough and it was fun. (no names given lol )

back to topic:
yes there should be a fifference in the islands. there should be some materials that are scatterd over the silands. and of cource you will need most of them. but there should be not a "better" island. there just ahve to be stuff that is avalibe here and other stuff that is avalible somewere else. so no island is better. so a single island will not to the job.

on the other hand this also has a downside. you just expect things to turn out the way you will like it. that ppl, corps, and alliances will trade or fight over it. i will predict another outcome. the STsyndic outcome. there will be at least one or maybe even two alliances that will try to get all that they need for themselfs. so they will make big powerblocks so that they can have all they want. and this will be bad for the game. as we have seen before.

so this is basicly a double edged sword. dont try to cut yourself. you may have a reverse efect even if you have the best intentions. humans like to do idiotic things just because its to their "benefit" or fits their ego.

dont get me wrong i like the idea of ilands with different resources and maybe other things that will bring pros and cons. but i think you have to be carefull with that.

Oh I agree you have to be careful, but under the current system, you can get everything you need for yourselves from one Island anyway. Powerblocks are something that happens in games like this, but by their nature have to be concentrated in a single area for mutual defence, etc. This is why I suggested two things, firstly expanding the game world to make power projection more difficult, and secondly regional variations in material types. This way the power block in region A cannot get all the material B & C they need, which encourages trade in materials A,B & C. I guess a third thing would be to make sure the resource is spread around the region enough that locking off all supply would be very difficult indeed.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Dazamin wrote:

Oh I agree you have to be careful, but under the current system, you can get everything you need for yourselves from one Island anyway.

The Titan/Epitron split means you can't get everything from one Island.

The difference in this, as to what your suggesting, is that titan isn't on ANY beta island. If there were even (1) beta Island with titan, that would make it the obvious 'best' Island, and as Syrissa pointed out, Syndic and his alliance would have taken that Island and held it until they got bored with the game, and never had to step foot into the rest of the world. They would have been 'totally' self-sufficient.

I think they should do it again, by putting Gamma-X material on gamma island, but no epitron.

There is now a 3 way triangle of trade, between Alpha, Beta, and Gamma.

Gamma owners now have to keep an outpost on beta too, for epitron access and a gateway to alpha for titan, or form an alliance/partnership for trade.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

We are still in the dark with regards to how the whole impenetrable fortress issue is gonna be delt with on gamma.  Are just gonna be able to build impassible cliffs/plateaus and live in isolation? 

But yes, much more space is needed imo.

+1
-Confucius

41

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

So far in this game I have not seen any one Corp have only one faction of Mechs. This being said if the Devs put one or two types of recourses on the gammas  that can only be found on those gamma islands these recourses will be needed by all corps. 

Red Gamma | mineral Rx and mineral Ry
Green Gamma | mineral Gx and mineral Gy
Blue Gamma | Mineral Bx and mineral By

This allocation of recourses will make it so corps will need to go to different gammas for their Mech fleet construction. Or they will need to trade for it on the open market. It will benefit corps to trade the recourses they have access to, to other corps that hold recourses they do not have access to. I am going to be optimistic and say that some will fight their way to getting access to those recourses and others will be diplomatic and set up trade agreements. I do not think any group will have the capacity (players and playtime .. all TZ’s ) to lock down 6+ gamma islands. Maybe in the future this will not be the case, at that time there should be more islands deployed to increase the area of the game (fish dont grow in small tanks!!). 

The reason for deploying lots of gamma islands is because it will make it very difficult and or impossible for one player corp or alliance to control all of the gamma islands of one faction and cut off the supply chain for that recourse that is located on that island. With 6 to 9 new gammas of each faction it will be to say the least a “challenge” for any one group to control.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

42 (edited by Arga 2012-02-24 00:05:25)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

@Kal

Because anyone can terraform, it's impossible to create any landscape that can't 'evenutally' be made passable again.

If the fortress has no players defending it, a lone symbiot can lower the drawbridge.

Conceptually, a smaller fortified force should be able to repell a larger attacking force, which is exactly what defenses are supposed to provide. If TF, walls, and any other deployables don't provide any defensive benefit, then they have failed in that purpose.

The only way to live in isolation, is if the rest of the server allows them to.

Power to the players!

Edit: @ Tux - Devs can always add more land in, taking it away is more complicated. My suggestion is simply to release a small amount of gamma islands. 2 new items, and 2 major adjustments later, a more conservative approach may be less distruptive.

43

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Arga wrote:

Edit: @ Tux - Devs can always add more land in, taking it away is more complicated. My suggestion is simply to release a small amount of gamma islands. 2 new items, and 2 major adjustments later, a more conservative approach may be less distruptive.

I'm hoping they get it right to start out with because the failure of the recent patches has left a bad taste in many a mouth. giving us 2 new gammas of each color is not the right thing to do, because if they have any hopes of the game expanding they need the infrastructure in place to do so. this is just like the old cap on the server limit where only so many people could be logged in at once.

there needs to be a big change and Gamma/TF should be it. two steppin will just annoy people. if they need testers they need to let players into a test server to test the content not test it on the live server.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

We got beta/alpha II's a year ago, roughly. So, yeah if they add in 3 new islands, then wait another 8 months to add more, that wouldn't work.

But, if they release (3), watch how the server distributes itself, then be able to procedurely generate 3 or 6 more islands to add in whenever (1 day, 1 weeks, a month later). that's seems better then to just spam the map with islands from the start.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Arga wrote:

@Kal

Conceptually, a smaller fortified force should be able to repell a larger attacking force, which is exactly what defenses are supposed to provide. If TF, walls, and any other deployables don't provide any defensive benefit, then they have failed in that purpose.


Edit: @ Tux - Devs can always add more land in, taking it away is more complicated. My suggestion is simply to release a small amount of gamma islands. 2 new items, and 2 major adjustments later, a more conservative approach may be less distruptive.

I agree with you about defences, however my own point of view on this is that defences should aid active defenders, not provide safety for players who don't want to / are unable to defend themselves (As groups, not as individuals).

As for the Island numbers, and sorry to compare to the 'other game' but I would say that the Eve devs making a huge game world to start with was one of the smartest things they did, you will have to search hard for anyone either then or now who feels the large game world is a negative part of the game. I'm not really sure what people think will happen with a lot of Islands? The vast majority of players will still form into groups that will occupy one or more Islands. Some will live in the middle of nowhere, some will live close to Alpha, PvP corps will live close to areas of population, some corps will go out and explore. Some Islands will be completely empty, but I don't see that as a major problem, if anything, it will add a nice sense of scale to the game, of large areas of unexplored land just waiting for some enterprising corp to set up there.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Arga wrote:

@Kal

Because anyone can terraform, it's impossible to create any landscape that can't 'evenutally' be made passable again.

If the fortress has no players defending it, a lone symbiot can lower the drawbridge.

So how long would you have to sit there, in a symbiont, locking up a pile of dirt just so you could get to an empty labyrinth on the other side?  Also, how many people would you expect to play a game like that?

Arga wrote:

Conceptually, a smaller fortified force should be able to repell a larger attacking force, which is exactly what defenses are supposed to provide. If TF, walls, and any other deployables don't provide any defensive benefit, then they have failed in that purpose.

How could terraforming possibly not provide an advantage for the defender?

Arga wrote:

The only way to live in isolation, is if the rest of the server allows them to.

Why would they not?  What would they possibly have to gain from having their drawbridging symbiont move piles of dirt which would be put back in place while they sleep?

+1
-Confucius

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Kaldenines wrote:
Arga wrote:

@Kal

Because anyone can terraform, it's impossible to create any landscape that can't 'evenutally' be made passable again.

If the fortress has no players defending it, a lone symbiot can lower the drawbridge.

So how long would you have to sit there, in a symbiont, locking up a pile of dirt just so you could get to an empty labyrinth on the other side?  Also, how many people would you expect to play a game like that?

You have to sit there as long as the person who terraformed it the first time. If it's empty, then why bother trying to get through it in the first place.

Kaldenines wrote:
Arga wrote:

Conceptually, a smaller fortified force should be able to repell a larger attacking force, which is exactly what defenses are supposed to provide. If TF, walls, and any other deployables don't provide any defensive benefit, then they have failed in that purpose.

How could terraforming possibly not provide an advantage for the defender?

When the game mechanics prevent it from doing so, because someone posts in the forums that terraforming shouldn't be able to build fortresses.

Kaldenines wrote:
Arga wrote:

The only way to live in isolation, is if the rest of the server allows them to.

Why would they not?  What would they possibly have to gain from having their drawbridging symbiont move piles of dirt which would be put back in place while they sleep?

Then they live in peace, and the rest of the server does its thing without them. By your definition, they're islotated and irrelevant anyway.

48 (edited by Kaldenines 2012-02-24 15:17:06)

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

You have to sit there as long as the person who terraformed it the first time. If it's empty, then why bother trying to get through it in the first place.

MMO = massively multiplayer online game
If it's empty, and walled off.  Then there is no point trying to get in.  Given that it will take you - as long as the first person can be bothered - to get in, by the time you get in, it will be empty or there will be an overwhelming force sitting on the other side.  Again this is all perfectly fine if you never want to see any pvp on your island.  As a side effect it would create a very exciting earth shooting mechanic in addition to the current wall shooting mechanic.

When the game mechanics prevent it from doing so, because someone posts in the forums that terraforming shouldn't be able to build fortresses.

Which "game mechanics" exactly are you talking about here?

Then they live in peace, and the rest of the server does its thing without them. By your definition, they're islotated and irrelevant anyway.

No, they are isolated from pvp competition, they are not isolated from the market as you can transfer resources through a solid wall using a can.  You know that very well so don't play dumb.

Edit: I am amazed you can't see that what you are suggesting would, if not kill the game, make it so there is so little competition between players (in pvp or on the maket) that it would esentially become a single player game.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

i dont think that 3 new islands will do the job.
only 3 new islands would mean that only 3 corps/alliances will have the fun, or they will not have the fun because others want that too. and besides they will be pvp islands i dont think it will be a good idea that the ppl have to fight over the few islands first to get settled there. these new toys should be avalible in enough quantity so that everybody can have their share.

Re: Gamma Islands - Make lots of them pls

Syrissa wrote:

i dont think that 3 new islands will do the job.
only 3 new islands would mean that only 3 corps/alliances will have the fun, or they will not have the fun because others want that too. and besides they will be pvp islands i dont think it will be a good idea that the ppl have to fight over the few islands first to get settled there. these new toys should be avalible in enough quantity so that everybody can have their share.


Pretty much this. Of course larger corps will have an advantage, they will have their pick of the Islands, be able to defend and exploit them better, etc, etc. But having small groups / Individuals effectively locked out of any meaningful gameplay on gamma Islands would be a real shame.