Re: Walls: not as advertised

Edison wrote:

Walls prohibit roaming.  They lock down small islands to an even smaller space.  They make Beta TOO safe for TOO much reward.


Walls INHIBIT roaming, big difference.

Walls don't lock anything down, players do.

Ask TOG how TOO safe beta is with walls.

This thread however, isn't about the deployed value of walls, its about the difference between a one-time investment versus an ongoing investment.

@Zoom

Your on the right track, looking at making it more a NIC sink then a time sink. I can see your dilmea also, in refunding the walls, but part of the fun of walls is putting them down and learning from the mistakes, and building them again. Refunding the wall units to inventory would generate more fun in placement, taking the new mechanic into account (including the repair units considered).

Either way, someone is not going to be happy, that's how change works.

52 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2012-02-09 19:48:21)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Supremacy wrote:

Only one entity will not agree to this.  They would do this simply for griefing purposes.  5 out of 6 beta islands good enough?


:::Lupus does a quick count of the posts in this thread:::

Hum, I'm only seeing one island's group of players advocating it...

PS: You have no business assigning motives to ppl's post to try and benefit your case.  I don't speak for Hokk, I don't even speak for M2S.  I'm just another player, trying to be objective about game balance because I want a healthy Perp.  Maybe you should try the same.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Walls: not as advertised

This isn't corp dialog guys.

Bad Zoom, bad.

Either the walls get refunded on the basis that the changed game mechanic warrents it, or it doesn't. Who it pisses off shoudn't be an issue.

54 (edited by toxic 2012-02-09 19:55:57)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

might want to think about refunding all the ammo to take them down too, i shot a wall wich was decaying anyways!?!?!
fuuu RAAAAAGGGEEE!! fuuu

55 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-02-09 21:43:26)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Arga wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Now further consider that since the implementation of the walls, the market has traded more than 100 M Epriton, which is worth 1Bn at a conservative estimate. (for those unfamiliar with the Epriton market, during a similar period previous to that approx 10 M Epriton was traded). This shows that these wall-corps have also gained massively from the reduced risk, so asking for a NIC refund seem kind of odd...

This had nothing to do with walls Lucius. That's all I can say though.

Edit: Add in the amount for wall growth charges, and you will get to the Billions numbers.

Okay, adding charges (715m NIC) and compiler modules (54m NIC) reaches grand total of 2.33Bn, which still on a server-wide scale is not that bad. Especially given all the epriton that was sold since...

56 (edited by Celebro 2012-02-09 22:04:04)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Lucius Marcellus wrote:
Arga wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Now further consider that since the implementation of the walls, the market has traded more than 100 M Epriton, which is worth 1Bn at a conservative estimate. (for those unfamiliar with the Epriton market, during a similar period previous to that approx 10 M Epriton was traded). This shows that these wall-corps have also gained massively from the reduced risk, so asking for a NIC refund seem kind of odd...

This had nothing to do with walls Lucius. That's all I can say though.

Edit: Add in the amount for wall growth charges, and you will get to the Billions numbers.

Okay, adding charges (715m NIC) and compiler modules (54m NIC) reaches grand total of 2.33Bn, which still on a server-wide scale is not that bad. Especially given all the epriton that was sold since...


Good point Lucius a lot of Epriton trade since walls where introduced, no one seems to complain about all the NIC they made mining in safety.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Reset game. Let's start over... cool

Re: Walls: not as advertised

There no dircet corellatin between nic spent on walls and profit from epi.

I can say, I spent money on walls, but didn't sell a single unit of epi.

Speculation that the same people that sold epi are the same ones that built walls is only that, and certainly nothing the devs should base a decision about cost reimburesment on.

Id call it a troll, but I don't think you meant it as one.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Celebro wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:
Arga wrote:

This had nothing to do with walls Lucius. That's all I can say though.

Edit: Add in the amount for wall growth charges, and you will get to the Billions numbers.

Okay, adding charges (715m NIC) and compiler modules (54m NIC) reaches grand total of 2.33Bn, which still on a server-wide scale is not that bad. Especially given all the epriton that was sold since...


Good point Lucius a lot of Epriton trade since walls where introduced, no one seems to complain about all the NIC they made mining in safety.

Don't kid yourself.  The ENTIRE Epi market was trashed by one player who did not mine one Epi since the walls as he was using the walls as soon as they came out.  He sold 1.5 bill worth of his epi as a lul to see if he could fill all buy orders.  None of the epi sold in volume over the last week has ANYTHING to do with current mining conditions or walls.  Devs can check seller to verify but they don't need too, I watched him do it!  Enough about epi.

Zoom,
You are going to get a vote of "no removal of walls" from those that did not use the toy you gave us to the full, and a vote of "refund and remove walls" from those that took YOUR tool and used it to the full.  Question is, who do you give the shaft too?  Do you disappoint a group that can put theirs back in less than two days or do you disappoint the groups that spent 7 days using the tool and then have those items decay to nothing in one month?

+1 reset to no walls, re-offer them under your new current mechanic and let people rethink, re-spend, and re-deploy the new product.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

I never said that entity was you.




Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Supremacy wrote:

Only one entity will not agree to this.  They would do this simply for griefing purposes.  5 out of 6 beta islands good enough?


:::Lupus does a quick count of the posts in this thread:::

Hum, I'm only seeing one island's group of players advocating it...

PS: You have no business assigning motives to ppl's post to try and benefit your case.  I don't speak for Hokk, I don't even speak for M2S.  I'm just another player, trying to be objective about game balance because I want a healthy Perp.  Maybe you should try the same.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Hello Dev Zoom,
Many thanks for speaking in this thread and the ideas put forward. While I do not speak completely for TOG, I agree that we need to spin from a time consuming to a nic consuming objective to wall maintenance. We do not have a issue with the wall maintenance and in fact were surprised it wasn't there at the start so Corps could plan for such a thing.

As feedback, in future when introducing a new game mechanic you announce the entire mechanic even parts of it that are coming(tm). This will prevent these types of threads in the future. A little communication can go a long way.

I believe you and the other Devs understand the concern the players have with the sudden change. So thanks for that. So from my perspective -

1. Vote No to removal of walls. We are adapting to the metric with a full understanding of what is needed and what we have learned over the last week or so. We maybe broke but we do not want the time wasted planning and building to be in vane. I'd rather grind nic than grind wall repair lol big_smile
2. Tweaking of the way walls are repaired, happy with what ever idea you have to change from time sink to nic sink.

@anyone that states Walls have stopped roaming/PvP. You serious? You must not be on Beta, because we have had more fun in the past week in TOG Corp then for months before hand. It has brought our Corp together like I have not seen in a long time with a goal and enabled us to have more PvP then ever before. Roams arrive daily, we have seen new ways of how the others are getting through the walls, how they are adapting to the changes. When Beta comes to it, we are pretty new and all admit to being noobs. But we are learning and we will try and make it now and bring more PvP to the server than just our roams in the past. To those complaining, what have you done to improve PvP in the past week other than troll in the forums?

Cheers

Duma

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Takeo Prime wrote:

Zoom,
You are going to get a vote of "no removal of walls" from those that did not use the toy you gave us to the full, and a vote of "refund and remove walls" from those that took YOUR tool and used it to the full.  Question is, who do you give the shaft too?  Do you disappoint a group that can put theirs back in less than two days or do you disappoint the groups that spent 7 days using the tool and then have those items decay to nothing in one month?

+1 reset to no walls, re-offer them under your new current mechanic and let people rethink, re-spend, and re-deploy the new product.


So, how much did you spend on walls???

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Dazamin wrote:
Takeo Prime wrote:

Zoom,
You are going to get a vote of "no removal of walls" from those that did not use the toy you gave us to the full, and a vote of "refund and remove walls" from those that took YOUR tool and used it to the full.  Question is, who do you give the shaft too?  Do you disappoint a group that can put theirs back in less than two days or do you disappoint the groups that spent 7 days using the tool and then have those items decay to nothing in one month?

+1 reset to no walls, re-offer them under your new current mechanic and let people rethink, re-spend, and re-deploy the new product.


So, how much did you spend on walls???

I feel a troll coming on, but I will bite.  Personally I spent 120mill, our corp about 800 mill (estimate) and an alliance at least 2.3 Bill will both Kent and Dom.  This is not to even include the plasma bombs used to remove sloppy walls, spamming walls so Hokk residence couldn't block our road every day, and the 7 solid days of industrial work with the product that could have been spent earning wealth instead of spending it.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Duma wrote:

@anyone that states Walls have stopped roaming/PvP. You serious? You must not be on Beta, because we have had more fun in the past week in TOG Corp then for months before hand. It has brought our Corp together like I have not seen in a long time with a goal and enabled us to have more PvP then ever before. Roams arrive daily, we have seen new ways of how the others are getting through the walls, how they are adapting to the changes. When Beta comes to it, we are pretty new and all admit to being noobs. But we are learning and we will try and make it now and bring more PvP to the server than just our roams in the past. To those complaining, what have you done to improve PvP in the past week other than troll in the forums?

Cheers

Duma


This is the example I wanted to use, thanks for posting, about corps moving out to beta. I don't think TOG is the only one either.

Reimbursement is all or nothing apparently, which makes the decision much more difficult for the devs to make. Trying to balance walls is objectively a good compromise, if they can do it.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Well said. 

I can speak for my friends and say that one fight we had in your base was among the top three in a long long time.  I hope your guys enjoyed the experience.

That maze made my head spin, lol


Duma wrote:

Hello Dev Zoom,
Many thanks for speaking in this thread and the ideas put forward. While I do not speak completely for TOG, I agree that we need to spin from a time consuming to a nic consuming objective to wall maintenance. We do not have a issue with the wall maintenance and in fact were surprised it wasn't there at the start so Corps could plan for such a thing.

As feedback, in future when introducing a new game mechanic you announce the entire mechanic even parts of it that are coming(tm). This will prevent these types of threads in the future. A little communication can go a long way.

I believe you and the other Devs understand the concern the players have with the sudden change. So thanks for that. So from my perspective -

1. Vote No to removal of walls. We are adapting to the metric with a full understanding of what is needed and what we have learned over the last week or so. We maybe broke but we do not want the time wasted planning and building to be in vane. I'd rather grind nic than grind wall repair lol big_smile
2. Tweaking of the way walls are repaired, happy with what ever idea you have to change from time sink to nic sink.

@anyone that states Walls have stopped roaming/PvP. You serious? You must not be on Beta, because we have had more fun in the past week in TOG Corp then for months before hand. It has brought our Corp together like I have not seen in a long time with a goal and enabled us to have more PvP then ever before. Roams arrive daily, we have seen new ways of how the others are getting through the walls, how they are adapting to the changes. When Beta comes to it, we are pretty new and all admit to being noobs. But we are learning and we will try and make it now and bring more PvP to the server than just our roams in the past. To those complaining, what have you done to improve PvP in the past week other than troll in the forums?

Cheers

Duma

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Supremacy wrote:

Well said. 

That maze made my head spin, lol

You can thank my twisted brain mechanics for the mazes big_smile

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

So looking at the global market graph, approximately 31600 wall structures has been sold, which means 1.56 Bn worth of walls in terms of NIC overall. Hence, anyone stating that they've spent several billion within a single corp should try to audit themselves...

Now further consider that since the implementation of the walls, the market has traded more than 100 M Epriton, which is worth 1Bn at a conservative estimate. (for those unfamiliar with the Epriton market, during a similar period previous to that approx 10 M Epriton was traded). This shows that these wall-corps have also gained massively from the reduced risk, so asking for a NIC refund seem kind of odd...


Right and wrong with the epi.... most Beta plays sold off personal stock to fuel the wall building madness.

Anonymous: lobo is the only hero left in this god foresaken game / :also, Lobo is god among men
http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=agent-his … mp;month=7 Best month 104 to 1 k/d

Re: Walls: not as advertised

and others just made a fortune while sitting around one night going "Hey, lets place a dtector here here and here with walls and probes nothings getting close to us. 30 riveler mk2s anyone? big_smile

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Re: Walls: not as advertised

Ville wrote:

and others just made a fortune while sitting around one night going "Hey, lets place a dtector here here and here with walls and probes nothings getting close to us. 30 riveler mk2s anyone? big_smile

^^ [Sacarsm] This obviously didn't happen, who would in their right minds turn beta into an alpha -3 island [/sacarsm]

RIP PERPETUUM

70 (edited by Arga 2012-02-10 21:03:25)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

I can just imagine an enemy detector bot pilot Pooping himself out of frustration if they saw 30 MK II rivelers smile


Edit: A single purple MK II can fill a scarab in an hour, so your talking about a scarab load every 2 minutes.

Edit Edit: Can you imagine having to safe log 30 MK II's and losing about 3.5 Billion nic of Epi in the field container. That alone would be an epic win for any force, even if they didnt' kill a single bot.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

I want you to goto the Epi global market click 1 year span, and look at the amount traded and look for a nice blip smile

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

72 (edited by Takeo Prime 2012-02-11 00:57:27)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Ville wrote:

I want you to goto the Epi global market click 1 year span, and look at the amount traded and look for a nice blip smile

explained above. Anyone that thinks epi mining was a huge score during the 7 days walls were up is a fool.

those were filled sell order from epi mined without walls.  Those that mine the stuff have store houses.  I have 2 scarab loads of it and none of it was mined during the wall issue.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Hm....I see Kent lost well over 800 mill of NIC...sucks to be you.

Just Sayin
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Re: Walls: not as advertised

800 Mill is what, 2 hours of Epi mining?

Re: Walls: not as advertised

So why all the QQ?

Just Sayin
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