26 (edited by Alexandra 2012-02-09 14:37:55)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Walls cost 50K.
12 charges 60K.
Total wall cost 110K to rush a wall to level 12.

12 charges are needed to reach max level (12) with 255 HP.

Walls with 255 HP will take from 17 days to 28 days to decay to 0 HP.

However this is a mad sink of time. Once every 2 weeks EVERY wall must have 2-3 charges pumped into it.

Devs need to see this is madness. Maintenance is now a massive time sink as well as a small NIC sink.

I AM NOT A GM™

27 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-02-09 14:54:01)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Though the wall-issue in itself is something I'm not too concerned, refunding the falls sets a very bad precedent for the future. As a previous poster mentions, features change, sometimes faster than you expected, but that is an integral part of a game. Some corps will be reluctant to admitting it, but the walls have also meant that Epriton mining has been far easier than usual, surely balancing out with the investment to some extent.

Further, perhaps DEVs will release a maintenance facility for the walls soon?

Also, something that entertains me is how almost all beta corps says NIC is trivial, and then after losing a minor amount in investment on walls (on corp scale) starts to whine vehemently on the forums.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Walls don't have an owner, so we can't simply reimburse those who ask for it. It would be only possible if we removed ALL deployed walls from every island, but I very much doubt everyone would agree with that.

Maintenance is now a massive time sink as well as a small NIC sink.

This is true, and we are currently working on an idea to reverse that ratio, making it more of a NIC sink and less of a time sink. The idea is a new deployable wall maintenance device, which will repair walls in a fixed radius. However the device can only repair a fixed amount of overall HP, so if there are many damaged walls in its effect radius, it will deplete its reserves faster and you will possibly need to deploy more of it to fully repair all the walls. The device will have a relatively short lifetime during which it performs its work, so it will only provide a lockable target for enemies for that time.

We will also make two other changes in the next patch affecting walls:
1. Interference emitter modules will have a LOS check for deployment.
2. Walls will only start to decay in their last few growth phases.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:

Walls don't have an owner, so we can't simply reimburse those who ask for it. It would be only possible if we removed ALL deployed walls from every island, but I very much doubt everyone would agree with that.

I would like all walls removed, refunded, and let us build with the new mechanic in mind.

As far as I am concerned, the walls sold to me have been removed, and new decaying walls have been put in their place.  I would (reluctantly) give you the 100's of game hours wasted as a free science mouse tester, to get the failed product removed and start over with the new mechanics in mind.

I don't know if I should be praising you for putting new items into the game, or laughing at your inability to see how things will be used before you place them within the game structure.  Perhaps grab some of us and ask us how we will use "x" before you place "x" in the game and then say OMG did you see what they did with "X", we need to hurry up and replace it with "Y" !  I have to lean with angry laugh on this one!

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:

2. Walls will only start to decay in their last few growth phases.

Means they will decay from 100% to 0% or from 100% to lets say 80%?

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Alexadar wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

2. Walls will only start to decay in their last few growth phases.

Means they will decay from 100% to 0% or from 100% to lets say 80%?

It means they will still decay from 100% to death, but this process will only start when they are "mature" enough.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:
Alexadar wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

2. Walls will only start to decay in their last few growth phases.

Means they will decay from 100% to 0% or from 100% to lets say 80%?

It means they will still decay from 100% to death, but this process will only start when they are "mature" enough.

Roger. Im sure its useless change.
I hope you will introduce good deployable repairer to compensate this silly decay.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:

The idea is a new deployable wall maintenance device, which will repair walls in a fixed radius. However the device can only repair a fixed amount of overall HP, so if there are many damaged walls in its effect radius, it will deplete its reserves faster and you will possibly need to deploy more of it to fully repair all the walls. The device will have a relatively short lifetime during which it performs its work, so it will only provide a lockable target for enemies for that time.
Could you make this another none-targetable structure like the walls that effects all wall units within Wm and will repair X amount of damage every Y hours until Z amount of repairs are done. More walls = faster drain like you said. This also doesn't run the risk of repairing walls while your attacker attacks them.

We will also make two other changes in the next patch affecting walls:
1. Interference emitter modules will have a LOS check for deployment.
This won't stop them being used to knock down walls but it will limit where they can be used.
2. Walls will only start to decay in their last few growth phases.
This goes without saying..

I AM NOT A GM™

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:

Walls don't have an owner, so we can't simply reimburse those who ask for it. It would be only possible if we removed ALL deployed walls from every island, but I very much doubt everyone would agree with that.

Maintenance is now a massive time sink as well as a small NIC sink.

This is true, and we are currently working on an idea to reverse that ratio, making it more of a NIC sink and less of a time sink. The idea is a new deployable wall maintenance device, which will repair walls in a fixed radius. However the device can only repair a fixed amount of overall HP, so if there are many damaged walls in its effect radius, it will deplete its reserves faster and you will possibly need to deploy more of it to fully repair all the walls. The device will have a relatively short lifetime during which it performs its work, so it will only provide a lockable target for enemies for that time.

We will also make two other changes in the next patch affecting walls:
1. Interference emitter modules will have a LOS check for deployment.
2. Walls will only start to decay in their last few growth phases.

So your idea was crap, a huge NIC sink, and a total waste of time, so you are asking those that investing in your wall testing to spend more Nic on another one of your unproven "fixes" and to have faith that this new system, even though costing more resources, will fix your first fail......Please don't tell me that in rl you are involved in customer relations or product development!

Fail, fail, fail....pull the crap product from the map and start over.  This is the only way to remotely save face....again!

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Alexandra wrote:

Could you make this another none-targetable structure like the walls that effects all wall units within Wm and will repair X amount of damage every Y hours until Z amount of repairs are done. More walls = faster drain like you said. This also doesn't run the risk of repairing walls while your attacker attacks them.

The idea is to make reasonably short and plannable maintenance runs possible, where you simply go around your walls and drop the maintenance devices. I think your idea would be less clean, since it would be harder to figure out when you need to replace the repair structures, because the result would take a much longer time to be visible. Also we don't really want to give them a "buffer over a long time" function, that would be a bit overpowered again and we'd be basically back at square one.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Outpost Aura at 100% repairs walls =?  (Stolen Idea from TOG member)

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

37

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:

Walls don't have an owner, so we can't simply reimburse those who ask for it. It would be only possible if we removed ALL deployed walls from every island, but I very much doubt everyone would agree with that.

Maintenance is now a massive time sink as well as a small NIC sink.

This is true, and we are currently working on an idea to reverse that ratio, making it more of a NIC sink and less of a time sink. The idea is a new deployable wall maintenance device, which will repair walls in a fixed radius. However the device can only repair a fixed amount of overall HP, so if there are many damaged walls in its effect radius, it will deplete its reserves faster and you will possibly need to deploy more of it to fully repair all the walls. The device will have a relatively short lifetime during which it performs its work, so it will only provide a lockable target for enemies for that time.

We will also make two other changes in the next patch affecting walls:
1. Interference emitter modules will have a LOS check for deployment.
2. Walls will only start to decay in their last few growth phases.


Look at the market records and reverse all the market transactions related to the 3 wall items ... you have the power to do this as we can look at our own market transaction history. Also i can assure you us residents of Kent and Dom will take you up on your offer remove all our walls and give us our NIC back. you don't believe me ? ask any 62nd or WAR member.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

38 (edited by Allak Hazaam 2012-02-09 17:48:44)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

The probes now have an accumulator that once drained disables them and is re-enabled once energy is transfered. Could the repair modules be active for longer than currently planned but after X amount of repair cycles / X amount of repaired AP its accumulator is drained and gets disabled. The player can either deploy a new one or reactivate the old one by transferring energy to reactivate it and start it repairing again until its accumulator is drained again or its timer expires.

P.S. Thanks Dev Zoom for being active in this thread and engaging in the conversations

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:
Alexandra wrote:

Could you make this another none-targetable structure like the walls that effects all wall units within Wm and will repair X amount of damage every Y hours until Z amount of repairs are done. More walls = faster drain like you said. This also doesn't run the risk of repairing walls while your attacker attacks them.

The idea is to make reasonably short and plannable maintenance runs possible, where you simply go around your walls and drop the maintenance devices. I think your idea would be less clean, since it would be harder to figure out when you need to replace the repair structures, because the result would take a much longer time to be visible. Also we don't really want to give them a "buffer over a long time" function, that would be a bit overpowered again and we'd be basically back at square one.

Again your plans are so confusing..."we don't like all the walls that have appeared so we are going to ninja in a decay patch...oh that is not good...ok we will give you a new way to maintain the decaying walls so you can keep them?"

PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS.  Either hate them, remove and reimburse, or live with your decision to put them in the game in the first place.

You have way to much to be working on (as your game board is way too small) too be finding a whole new way to fix the fix, from a rushed product.  Pull the product, revamp, reimburse, and develop content that makes me want to continue subbing to your game that is at best still in Beta or possibly Alpha stages but still cost me rl money to test for you.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Just add restriction: you can build a walls around your outpost with good stability, and remove decay. Thats all. No need to add new complicated modules, and decaying stuff...

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Binding anything to outpost/intrusion mechanics is not future-proof at all, so that's not the way.

Tux wrote:

Look at the market records and reverse all the market transactions related to the 3 wall items ... you have the power to do this as we can look at our own market transaction history. Also i can assure you us residents of Kent and Dom will take you up on your offer remove all our walls and give us our NIC back. you don't believe me ? ask any 62nd or WAR member.

With all due respect, you can't be serious. It's not that we don't believe you, it's the conspiracy theories that would emerge after that by all the other players in the game.

As said, yes, we can reimburse all purchased walls, but that means we have to remove each and every wall from all islands. The question is, will those who don't want their walls removed agree to it.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:

Binding anything to outpost/intrusion mechanics is not future-proof at all, so that's not the way.

Tux wrote:

Look at the market records and reverse all the market transactions related to the 3 wall items ... you have the power to do this as we can look at our own market transaction history. Also i can assure you us residents of Kent and Dom will take you up on your offer remove all our walls and give us our NIC back. you don't believe me ? ask any 62nd or WAR member.

With all due respect, you can't be serious. It's not that we don't believe you, it's the conspiracy theories that would emerge after that by all the other players in the game.

As said, yes, we can reimburse all purchased walls, but that means we have to remove each and every wall from all islands. The question is, will those who don't want their walls removed agree to it.

I think you can guess the answer yourself Zoom yarr

Re: Walls: not as advertised

i wonder why they need to decay (additional mechanic) + support structure (additonal mechanic) + ...

when the solution would have been:

- make then valid target,
- not self-growing and well...
- raise their resists another 5%.

the change in damage math was the least necessary thing. please remove different ammos per weapon type, this change shows that they are just for... for what exactly?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

44 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-02-09 18:44:24)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

So looking at the global market graph, approximately 31600 wall structures has been sold, which means 1.56 Bn worth of walls in terms of NIC overall. Hence, anyone stating that they've spent several billion within a single corp should try to audit themselves...

Now further consider that since the implementation of the walls, the market has traded more than 100 M Epriton, which is worth 1Bn at a conservative estimate. (for those unfamiliar with the Epriton market, during a similar period previous to that approx 10 M Epriton was traded). This shows that these wall-corps have also gained massively from the reduced risk, so asking for a NIC refund seem kind of odd...

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:

Binding anything to outpost/intrusion mechanics is not future-proof at all, so that's not the way.

Tux wrote:

Look at the market records and reverse all the market transactions related to the 3 wall items ... you have the power to do this as we can look at our own market transaction history. Also i can assure you us residents of Kent and Dom will take you up on your offer remove all our walls and give us our NIC back. you don't believe me ? ask any 62nd or WAR member.

With all due respect, you can't be serious. It's not that we don't believe you, it's the conspiracy theories that would emerge after that by all the other players in the game.

As said, yes, we can reimburse all purchased walls, but that means we have to remove each and every wall from all islands. The question is, will those who don't want their walls removed agree to it.

+1 take away all walls

We are playing chess and the rest of perp is playing checkers.   http://stringcan.com/wp-content/uploads … 80x305.jpg     
http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkore321/videos

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Of course there has been exaggeration regarding how much Nic was spent.

Walls prohibit roaming.  They lock down small islands to an even smaller space.  They make Beta TOO safe for TOO much reward.

I'm just not sure how you guys think that these mazes of walls are going to be good for the game?  Just because they are player built?  That is not a good enough reason.

With such low population, sometimes getting 4 or 5 people together to go roam and "TRY" to find fights can be tough, now it's basically worthless to do as you have to run through mazes, appoint bomb carriers.

Walls have made this game too linear, reduced the "real" size of islands, and are just not a "fun" mechanic in long term.

47 (edited by Arga 2012-02-09 19:22:06)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Now further consider that since the implementation of the walls, the market has traded more than 100 M Epriton, which is worth 1Bn at a conservative estimate. (for those unfamiliar with the Epriton market, during a similar period previous to that approx 10 M Epriton was traded). This shows that these wall-corps have also gained massively from the reduced risk, so asking for a NIC refund seem kind of odd...

This had nothing to do with walls Lucius. That's all I can say though.

Edit: Add in the amount for wall growth charges, and you will get to the Billions numbers.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

DEV Zoom wrote:

Binding anything to outpost/intrusion mechanics is not future-proof at all, so that's not the way.

Tux wrote:

Look at the market records and reverse all the market transactions related to the 3 wall items ... you have the power to do this as we can look at our own market transaction history. Also i can assure you us residents of Kent and Dom will take you up on your offer remove all our walls and give us our NIC back. you don't believe me ? ask any 62nd or WAR member.

With all due respect, you can't be serious. It's not that we don't believe you, it's the conspiracy theories that would emerge after that by all the other players in the game.

As said, yes, we can reimburse all purchased walls, but that means we have to remove each and every wall from all islands. The question is, will those who don't want their walls removed agree to it.

-1

Life is about consequences.
Persistant sandbox MMOs are about consequences.
Shortsightedness should not be rewarded

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Only one entity will not agree to this.  They would do this simply for griefing purposes.  5 out of 6 beta islands good enough?

DEV Zoom wrote:

Binding anything to outpost/intrusion mechanics is not future-proof at all, so that's not the way.

Tux wrote:

Look at the market records and reverse all the market transactions related to the 3 wall items ... you have the power to do this as we can look at our own market transaction history. Also i can assure you us residents of Kent and Dom will take you up on your offer remove all our walls and give us our NIC back. you don't believe me ? ask any 62nd or WAR member.

With all due respect, you can't be serious. It's not that we don't believe you, it's the conspiracy theories that would emerge after that by all the other players in the game.

As said, yes, we can reimburse all purchased walls, but that means we have to remove each and every wall from all islands. The question is, will those who don't want their walls removed agree to it.

50 (edited by Dazamin 2012-02-09 19:46:40)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Supremacy wrote:

Only one entity will not agree to this.  They would do this simply for griefing purposes.  5 out of 6 beta islands good enough?

DEV Zoom wrote:

Binding anything to outpost/intrusion mechanics is not future-proof at all, so that's not the way.

Tux wrote:

Look at the market records and reverse all the market transactions related to the 3 wall items ... you have the power to do this as we can look at our own market transaction history. Also i can assure you us residents of Kent and Dom will take you up on your offer remove all our walls and give us our NIC back. you don't believe me ? ask any 62nd or WAR member.

With all due respect, you can't be serious. It's not that we don't believe you, it's the conspiracy theories that would emerge after that by all the other players in the game.

As said, yes, we can reimburse all purchased walls, but that means we have to remove each and every wall from all islands. The question is, will those who don't want their walls removed agree to it.


lol...... In all seriousness, our walls are fine, why would we want to have them taken them down and rebuild them in exactly the same place?

Also reimburse all purchased walls? Does that include destroyed ones? If so, does the ammo, bombs and TPs used to do that get reimbursed too?