1 (edited by Takeo Prime 2012-02-09 02:40:00)

Topic: Walls: not as advertised

Well, quite a predicament we find ourselves in.
There has been a product advertised, supposedly tested, released to the market, purchased in mass, and now does not function as advertised.  These of course are the player placed wall incubators.

Looks like the company that supplied the item has a few choices:
1.    Grandfather (retain) performance of product already released, but hold new purchases of the product to new (decaying) standards.
2.    Do a mass recall; reimburse passed purchases, along with some compensation for time spent with the falsely advertised product.
3.    Offer other products in compensation for leading purchasers of product down a path that now requires not only their initial time, but additional time to maintain.
4.    Rethink a fix to the product that would not compromise the work and purchases that have already taken place.

We did not ask for the product that was released on the market.  We followed the instructions of use, even spending many, many game hours making the product work efficiently, only to be told that the product will now be changed to a performance level that makes the entire process a waste of time and resources.

To avoid a class action suit toward the manufacturer of the product, please let us know how you will be reimbursing those that put faith in your recent “wall” product, only to see it fall short of its advertised performance.

If you plan to offer a reimbursement for the product and the time spent using it, I typically make about 5 million/hr. while living on Beta and would expect the manufacturer of the product to remove any items that I may have purchased, and used while offering the appropriate compensation.

Please feel free to check your logs, send the money back for the product, pay 5 million per hour spent using the faulty items, and assure me that new products will be tested better before they are put on the market, and I will consider purchasing and using some of the products that your company may release in the future.  If we can’t come to an agreement on this issue, please note that time spent on the overall product that you offer is not worth the price you are asking, and I will have to spend my time not on using faulty items within your product, but spend time on forums and reviews warning others of the danger and defects that will occur with the overall product.  I look forward to your resolution.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

I totally agree with this statement. I dont know any company in the world that could sell a product advertised to do one thing have thousands upon thousands of units sold and then change its functionality with out either recalling the product altogether or offering refunds for all units sold.

Fool me once shame on me (probes)

Fool me twice shame on you (walls)

I will not be fooled a third time ...

I hope you enjoyed all free testing we have provided as you will be losing testers quickly with your current course of action.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

btw, I like the change, that is not my issue....Just for the record.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

I would like all of the NIC returned from the recent wall testing that was done. I say testing because when the walls were deployed they were advertised as permanent features that we as players could purchase and deploy out to the terrain. Now they are not permanent or persistent as they will destroy themselves after a short period of time. I can assure you if the “Defensive Wall Unit” was released as not persistent then I would have not purchased a single one as there would be no point in deploying them. I have spent hours upon hours designing and deploying these items, hours that are now gone because of the changes made to make these items degrade.   

And I quote

Defensive walls===
The first herald of persistent player-built structures is here! Defensive wall units can be deployed from your cargo onto the ground (beta islands only), and with time they will grow into full-fledged sturdy walls, mainly used for territorial defense.

A special wall compiler module is also available, to speed up the relatively slow "natural" growth of walls - if you have the NIC to spend on the required charges. There are some special rules for building walls too: 1 wall unit can have up to 3 neighbouring walls (diagonal doesn't count), and an area of 21 by 21 tiles can only contain a maximum of 95 wall units. Ah, the mysteries of Hungarian maths. 

I ask and urge you to refund all purchases made for:

Defensive Wall Unit
Wall Compiler Charges
Standard wall compiler module

As it stands without refunding the NIC spent on these items you are essentially deleting my NIC from the game without me even having a choice about it.

If I had the choice to deploy walls knowing they would degrade overtime then I would not have anything to complain about. But you told me at the time of purchase [one week ago] these items would last FOREVER unless destroyed by another player.

I can deal with people shooting and bombing my walls that’s expected. I can deal with the change. I cannot deal with and will not deal with being misled and tricked by developers.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

I bet you guys didn't think how your walls destroyed such a basic Perpetuum feature as "walking across the land". Can I haz reimbursement too? For not being able to travel some parts of the world.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Déjà vu

didn't this happen before with a skill getting nerfed? players paid for a skill with one lot of stats / values only to have it nerfed to the point the ep cost was higher than its benefit and those players who spent ep on that skill didn't get any form of reimbursement.

just to save some time I will give you the dev's most likely generic answer.

"I'm really sorry, but we're not making refunds due to the change, because the base functions of the item didn't changed. You use it like before the change... I hope you understand why we're not going to reimburse it."

7 (edited by Supremacy 2012-02-09 05:42:43)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Once again, Kent is used as a beta test island except this time we dont get our Nic back.

I dont mind the change as much as I mind not having the opportunity to plan based on the "new" mechanic.

I hope everyone enjoyed what we created in the last week.  I know I had fun planning and building etc., and it didnt stop PvP as we had many fights that were also fun.

The Mark Zimas of the world want easy mode PvE and easy mode PvP.  They want to hold outposts with three people and try and convince others that it is the way things should be. They want to roll up on your island and drive straight to your station and hold you hostage. 

The bottom line here is time and game currency were spent by a large group of people so the Devs could gauge the mechanic, then we get the shaft.

getting a little tired of it tbh

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Just to be clear here. I like the idea of wall upkeep. I believe that it makes sense that any structure that is made by players needs to be repaired and tended too rather than dumped and left. We will adapt.

What really ticks me off, is this should of been added when walls were introduced, not 7 days after the fact. That is just a serious slap in the face to the Perp players. A stealth patch as well fuuu I know most corps would of been way more considerate in how walls were placed and used if that was the case. But instead, they created a NIC sink that removed a huge amount of nic from the game and then threw in a change in mechanic a week later that basically screwed the majority of corps plans with the defensive walls.

It amazes me that the Devs did not realize that walls would not be over used. Used in ways they never thought of and the one way to prevent such huge amounts of walls being built would of been a upkeep cost..

In future Devs, please introduce new toys/tools to the sandbox feature complete, not a bit here and there.

Thanks

Duma

Re: Walls: not as advertised

To Mark Zima:
Mate, with all due respect, don't be angry with the players for using the tools provided by the DEV's. Be angry at the DEV's for not putting enough thought into the ramifications of the use of the tools they introduce into the game.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Mark Zima wrote:

I bet you guys didn't think how your walls destroyed such a basic Perpetuum feature as "walking across the land". Can I haz reimbursement too? For not being able to travel some parts of the world.

what's preventing you from walking across land?, i've been doing it, lots of people are doing it, there's more than one way to skin a cat. learn to adapt.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

And you guys went crazy building walls in every place you could think of & it didnt cross your mind "hmmm this wall spam is getting stupid i wonder if these will get nerfed. maybe ill stop for a bit & see what happens"

the day after it came out some were starting to say these will get the nerf bat.

ps. i want my money back & compensation for my time! tongue

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Wait, so 62nd/War now doesn't like how something turned out??   You were all stoked about the walls.  Did you not spend enough time on IRC telling them how you want your game made for your specific desires....:fuuu:

Did not CIR threaten to leave game or "testers" as you call it also.  They actually DID when they didn't get what they wanted.  Will you do the same?  Time will tell.  But most of us know the answer.  You will just get back into camping IRC and telling them how you want the game to be.  Unfortunately they've listened to you too much already.

Walls prohibit roaming.  They make Beta too safe for the Beta rewards.  I really dislike the walls then and now.  I really don't have much faith in the Devs seeing that they release Probes, and Walls and don't have the foresight to see that they will not be good for the long term success of the game, plus many other cascading /scratch my head moments.

They also shouldn't keep trying to placate the IRC campers telling them how to make their game, which ironically benefits one Corp's playstyle.

13 (edited by Sundial 2012-02-09 07:18:44)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Edison wrote:

Wait, so 62nd/War now doesn't like how something turned out??   You were all stoked about the walls.  Did you not spend enough time on IRC telling them how you want your game made for your specific desires....:fuuu:

Did not CIR threaten to leave game or "testers" as you call it also.  They actually DID when they didn't get what they wanted.  Will you do the same?  Time will tell.  But most of us know the answer.  You will just get back into camping IRC and telling them how you want the game to be.  Unfortunately they've listened to you too much already.

Walls prohibit roaming.  They make Beta too safe for the Beta rewards.  I really dislike the walls then and now.  I really don't have much faith in the Devs seeing that they release Probes, and Walls and don't have the foresight to see that they will not be good for the long term success of the game, plus many other cascading /scratch my head moments.

They also shouldn't keep trying to placate the IRC campers telling them how to make their game, which ironically benefits one Corp's playstyle.

Baseless accusation is baseless.

I am the ONLY guy from 62nd on the IRC who talks on a regular basis and I had mixed feelings about the walls:

a. They stop roaming
b. They make islands worth living on / investing in / defending
c. They should be reserved for gamma islands, or Beta 2 islands should be made into gamma islands.

You can ask anyone who frequents the IRC channel this. There is nothing wrong with making suggestions / concerns to the devs regardless of where it is, on the forums or IRC.

Take off the tinfoil hat, it won't get you anywhere.

Last of all

D. I think the people who built the walls deserved a refund. They played within the game mechanics provided but were suddenly yanked out like a carpet from under them.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Hey this CAN'T be perpetuum forums witout some tinfoil hats? big_smile

Shoot if you are gonna call a spade a spade, then do it for people like Jelan and the likes.... 

I still stand by this however:
Did not CIR threaten to leave game or "testers" as you call it also.  They actually DID when they didn't get what they wanted.  Will you do the same?  Time will tell.  But most of us know the answer.

Walls prohibit roaming.  They make Beta too safe for the Beta rewards.  I really dislike the walls then and now.  I really don't have much faith in the Devs seeing that they release Probes, and Walls and don't have the foresight to see that they will not be good for the long term success of the game, plus many other cascading /scratch my head moments.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Sundial wrote:

c. They should be reserved for gamma islands, or Beta 2 islands should be made into gamma islands.

^^ this. leave the beta 1 islands open for roaming pvp / area for newer players to get going in beta.

Let us not wallow in the valley of despair, I say to you today, my friends.
I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Nians shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."

Re: Walls: not as advertised

I don't fully understand the issue here. Is it a bug or a feature?
Walls are persistent as far as I was aware but require maintenance to keep them going.

Can someone explain (Rather than spamming the forums with QQ, rage and what looks like a night of tears from teamspeal) what happened? Did only old walls disappear?

Did all walls everywhere disappear and do you KNOW what happened to them? It's likely a bug with the wall growth mechanic. You know walls are considered a plant. You know plants die after they reach their final cycle HOWEVER the devs have made no official comment as to whether this has been a bug or a feature.

If it were a feature you should have noticed the walls degrading. If they're suddenly ALL disappearing that sounds like a bug. Bugs can be fixed.

Terrain layers can be replaced. Bugs happen. They do not have to compensate you for your walls and such but they can. It's not easy to but they can remove every single wall from the game, refund EVERY transaction related to walls and be back at the beginning.

Odd things can happen and the devs need to respond quickly to this issue. The first reported incident of this happening was around midnight Wednesday night and the devs were likely sleep. Now that the devs are waking up we'll see what they have to say.

I AM NOT A GM™

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Alexandra, none of us are complaining about the maintenance and we fully understand that it is needed. But how it was implemented into the game 7 days after fully persistent walls were added to the game. Walls did not decay prior to the "stealth" patch as per the release notes -

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Changelog:2012-02-08

Perhaps you should read the release notes to understand the issue before commenting on it?

The only issue we have is how it was added to the game without any warning. As such many corps did not plan around this new "feature" and thus wasted time and nic into it. It should of been stated when the walls were put in 7 days ago that this would occur ( yes we all thought it might occur but there wasn't any offical communication that stated this from the Devs or Blog ).

So to sum up -

1. 7 days ago we were given persistent walls in a new patch. New toys in the sandbox yah!
2. The Dev's basically said go wild as per the Dev blog -
Walls can be only deployed on beta islands outside a 1km distance from terminals and teleports to prevent unwanted pool closages, but other than that you’re pretty much free to build anything you want with them. (Somehow I feel I will regret saying this...)
3. walls were persistent structures, requiring no maintenance.
4. Corps went wild.
5. Stealth patch with no word from Devs explaining that this would occur is applied.
6. Corps have spend a huge amount of time and nic on wall structures, if they knew ahead of time that this was going to be the case there would of been a much better use of walls.

The issue is, 7 days ago when walls were added, all the Devs needed to say was "Go for it guys, but be aware in a short time walls will start to decay ( date to be decided ) and require maintenance".

All we ask is communication. Devs will do what they will, but hey a little respect of the player base would be nice. We will adapt, no issue. But just to do this without any communication is not good karma IMHO.

Cheers

Duma

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Devs took idea from guy who obviously troll.
Almost all major corps against patch.
Solution?
Revert patch

19 (edited by Jasdemi 2012-02-09 11:46:03)

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Alexadar wrote:

Devs took idea from guy who obviously troll.
Almost all major corps against patch.
Solution?
Revert patch

All carebears, who want safe beta with minimal effort and completely destroy pvp in this game are against this patch.
We're not in Hello Kitty Online here, pathetic carebears.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

-I bet the DEVs didn´t expect whole islands to be locked off from the outside world.
-I bet the DEVs didn´t expect the "small-scale-elite-PVP-groups" to build something that makes Helms Deep look like a tiki-hut.
-I bet the DEVs didn´t expect to reduce roams by 80% with giving the players something to protect probes with.

I always saw 62nd and WAR as the kind of schoolyard kiddies that bully everyone else. You harvested everyones tears when the recycling was beaten and noone got a refund and now you cry rivers and rivers of tears here because persistant walls still are persistant but need maintenance?

It´s hilarious!

Re: Walls: not as advertised

The issue is not in maintenance. Current walls was built without any thoughts of maintenance. Issue is in money what was spent for walls. I want money back for walls, and remove all wall what was planted by my corp.

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Alexadar wrote:

The issue is not in maintenance. Current walls was built without any thoughts of maintenance. Issue is in money what was spent for walls. I want money back for walls, and remove all wall what was planted by my corp.

QQ

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Does no one think that refunding everyone for walls (which still exist btw) would set a precedent that any time there was a game mechanic change people didn't like they could demand refunds for what they bought? Probes were reimbursed because they were removed, that is not the case with walls, they were patched / fixed / whatever you want to call it. Thats how games work, features change over time, they're adjusted and patched and fixed, that is a GOOD thing surely?

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Alexadar wrote:

The issue is not in maintenance. Current walls was built without any thoughts of maintenance. Issue is in money what was spent for walls. I want money back for walls, and remove all wall what was planted by my corp.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

QFT Explain to the guy who made a 5 row deep wall that the interior will now start to crumble cause you can't get to it.... fuuu

Anonymous: lobo is the only hero left in this god foresaken game / :also, Lobo is god among men
http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=agent-his … mp;month=7 Best month 104 to 1 k/d

Re: Walls: not as advertised

Lobo wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

The issue is not in maintenance. Current walls was built without any thoughts of maintenance. Issue is in money what was spent for walls. I want money back for walls, and remove all wall what was planted by my corp.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

QFT Explain to the guy who made a 5 row deep wall that the interior will now start to crumble cause you can't get to it.... fuuu

Range extenders. 50M range on the compilers.

I AM NOT A GM™