Re: Walls decay over time

Again, your talking about the old ways, as if they are the only ways.

If an alpha corp decides they are ready to take an outpost, they'll need to bring a force adequate enough to take SAPs. Early warning is OK there, but it's not going to save the defenders if they don't have the resources to defend. Alpha corp will have to maintain the pressure until they own the outpost, and then they will have to mount a defense, probably against the previous owners.

No one was taking outposts, the attacks you describe and the mounted defense are all that were needed, because they really didn't care either way.

Your example about docking and turtling is only valid if the current owner doesn't want an outpost, or if nobody is actually trying to take it.

Nothing is going to change, in attitude about outposts, unless something changes.

Its about that pesky risk/reward again. Walls do not NOT NOT eliminate risk, they just reduce it.

If players feel that risk/reward is too low, you can either raise the reward or lower the risk. But there's limit to how much reward you can provide without over-balancing the game, so walls reduce risk.

We're just rehasing the same thing over and over.

I really do understand your viewpoint, but I also think that the outpost part of the game needs to evolve out of run and gun, less worrying about a sniper killing you when you exit your house, and more about bases to build an empire.

Re: Walls decay over time

Arga wrote:

needs to evolve out of run and gun, less worrying about a sniper killing you when you exit your house, and more about bases to build an empire.

Yeah but as i already said, some dont want the "age of empires" to replace "age of barbarians". They simply dont consider the game is more than mine>kill, cant get their head out of the full loot ffa pvp "deathmacth" type of gameplay, only with some grind for sustaining it.   I know for sure some other so called "sandboxes" who catered too much for the "free kill" crowd, now its a no mans land.

Dont get me wrong, ffa full loot im all for it. But with some "meaning" beyond that. Not just mindless roams, i kill your riveler, you kill my symbiont...   How could some play as "pirates" or "outlaws", if there is not a beginning of "civilized land"?

Dazamin you imply that Arga only wants to mine in peace? Im 100% sure you are wrong.  Imo, Arga just wants to play a level higher than the roaming tribes we got now. Cause your so loved pvp style began to steam, even before any wall was constructed.

What i think would help balance wall (that has already been suggested):

-No auto building up. Each wall has to be built entirely. So you add a time sink to the money sink. Only that would help greatly not spamming.

-Walls are easier to destroy, but the wall tile stay as long as the owner (with a new "area owning system linked to OP") dont want to destroy it, with a new window to handle all that (Devs at one point or another you'll have to create some UI to support PBS, heres a good chance to begin). The tile itself is costy(and also very long to deploy... again time sink good for lowering spam). The "building up" is more of a time sink, but not much money involved.

-When a wall is attacked, the owners are alerted (but not wich one is attacked, only the area where its attacked) The bigger your wall network, the harder to find the attacking point (without a good probe network to back it up).

-For the love of all gods, you should have introduced GATES at the very moment you introduced walls. With a system of ally/neutral/ennemies filtering. Walls without gates?? Does it ever existed in human civilization?

-TARGETABLE WALLS!!!  Why not?? Everything mobile or static should be targeted and shooted at. If a single castel wants to go to some beta island, lock a wall , then shoot it for 3 hours until it is destroyed, it should be possible.

I dont see any good reason not to do it. THAT would balance the "spam like a beast" kind of behaviors with walls. Bombs are just... unadapted. Cause you have to make them big and costy to balance them (prevent other "ab"uses). But that render them unpratical in roams, even big ones.

Re: Walls decay over time

Today's patch brought a slow wall decay of 3-5 HP with an 8 hour cycle. This means a wall will die in 17-28 days if unattended (ie. repaired with wall compiler modules).

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Changelog:2012-02-08

We felt this was necessary to avoid littering up islands too much over time.

Re: Walls decay over time

DEV Zoom wrote:

Today's patch brought a slow wall decay of 3-5 HP with an 8 hour cycle. This means a wall will die in 17-28 days if unattended (ie. repaired with wall compiler modules).

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Changelog:2012-02-08

We felt this was necessary to avoid littering up islands too much over time.

Not a bad change however are you working on making it possible to lock and destroy them?

Inappropriate signature.

Re: Walls decay over time

Cobalt wrote:
Arga wrote:

needs to evolve out of run and gun, less worrying about a sniper killing you when you exit your house, and more about bases to build an empire.

Yeah but as i already said, some dont want the "age of empires" to replace "age of barbarians". They simply dont consider the game is more than mine>kill, cant get their head out of the full loot ffa pvp "deathmacth" type of gameplay, only with some grind for sustaining it.   I know for sure some other so called "sandboxes" who catered too much for the "free kill" crowd, now its a no mans land.

Dont get me wrong, ffa full loot im all for it. But with some "meaning" beyond that. Not just mindless roams, i kill your riveler, you kill my symbiont...   How could some play as "pirates" or "outlaws", if there is not a beginning of "civilized land"?

Dazamin you imply that Arga only wants to mine in peace? Im 100% sure you are wrong.  Imo, Arga just wants to play a level higher than the roaming tribes we got now. Cause your so loved pvp style began to steam, even before any wall was constructed.

What i think would help balance wall (that has already been suggested):

-No auto building up. Each wall has to be built entirely. So you add a time sink to the money sink. Only that would help greatly not spamming.

-Walls are easier to destroy, but the wall tile stay as long as the owner (with a new "area owning system linked to OP") dont want to destroy it, with a new window to handle all that (Devs at one point or another you'll have to create some UI to support PBS, heres a good chance to begin). The tile itself is costy(and also very long to deploy... again time sink good for lowering spam). The "building up" is more of a time sink, but not much money involved.

-When a wall is attacked, the owners are alerted (but not wich one is attacked, only the area where its attacked) The bigger your wall network, the harder to find the attacking point (without a good probe network to back it up).

-For the love of all gods, you should have introduced GATES at the very moment you introduced walls. With a system of ally/neutral/ennemies filtering. Walls without gates?? Does it ever existed in human civilization?

-TARGETABLE WALLS!!!  Why not?? Everything mobile or static should be targeted and shooted at. If a single castel wants to go to some beta island, lock a wall , then shoot it for 3 hours until it is destroyed, it should be possible.

I dont see any good reason not to do it. THAT would balance the "spam like a beast" kind of behaviors with walls. Bombs are just... unadapted. Cause you have to make them big and costy to balance them (prevent other "ab"uses). But that render them unpratical in roams, even big ones.

I agree with most of those ideas, I don't want walls removed, I just want balance sad

Re: Walls decay over time

DEV Zoom wrote:

Today's patch brought a slow wall decay of 3-5 HP with an 8 hour cycle. This means a wall will die in 17-28 days if unattended (ie. repaired with wall compiler modules).

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Changelog:2012-02-08

We felt this was necessary to avoid littering up islands too much over time.

as a wall builder & designer i like this change & welcome our new ninite overlords! tongue well done devs & thx smile

@ Cobalt: some good well thought out & articulated ideas. i agree with you mostly smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Walls decay over time

A step in the right direction, but I think a month decay time is going to do little to stop the clutter that is going on. The issue is that they are too cheap to build or too expensive to destroy. Changing either of those would balance walls imo.

Re: Walls decay over time

DEV Zoom wrote:

Today's patch brought a slow wall decay of 3-5 HP with an 8 hour cycle. This means a wall will die in 17-28 days if unattended (ie. repaired with wall compiler modules).

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Changelog:2012-02-08

We felt this was necessary to avoid littering up islands too much over time.

This also means that walls that aren't undergoing maintenance will be easier to destroy over time. After 8-16 days they are down to half in hp. Making one plasmabomb enough to bring them down.
Regular maintenance is necessary.
Good or bad? I don't know..

Re: Walls decay over time

Very bad change.

Re: Walls decay over time

So... Thanks for path. Our members are waiting when you return the money. We bought the wall, but not this. You can take your "walls" back. We going to spend money for something more useful.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: Walls decay over time

Its missing the information how much hitpoints a wall has at each of its grow stages.

255 (Max) / 12 Stages = 21.5 HP per stage (doesnt sound right)

so if you place a wall and boost 6 times, you get one with ~150 HP. That makes it last 1 plasmabomb
It will take at least two days until its fully grown up (if it skips one cycle)

after that, it will take at least 4.5 days until its back down to this HP count, thats still resists 1 plasmabomb.

so assuming the HP amount of Walls is linear growing, an effective wall can last at least a week without maintainence.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

62 (edited by Kanogi 2012-02-08 18:16:33)

Re: Walls decay over time

The walls wasnt hard to destroy u could do it solo and now its even easier to kill them.

There is a easy and cheap way to kill them, u just need to use ur brain.

But from what i have seen on the forums latetly some ppl thend to lack vision and brain power yarr

And i want my money back!

[05:36:51] <Lemon> i hate you... just so you know

[15:05:49] <Ville> I have to admit, that was pretty fu**ing pimp ^^
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Re: Walls decay over time

This was actually a double wall nerf, you missed this:

Weapon damage resistance in walls and plants is now calculated after the sum of all damage types, and not per damage type.

Re: Walls decay over time

I hope PBS comes soon.

This modification is just another change, we'll roll with it and adjust. The real problem is that walls were actually fun to build. Now they will be an ongoing nuisance. Sure, it achieves the goal of reducing walls 6000m from outpost, but it will also stop players from building them 1100m from the outpost. Just like gate camping now, someone is going to need to use an hour or two of thier game time to run a symbiot up and down even a short wall systems repairing them, we were already running up and down inspecting them.

Manpower is at a premium in this game, by requiring corps to spend it on mind-numbing things like wall maintenance will likely result in walls being unused for strategic defense; and all the loss of all the fun that goes with that.

In any case, outposts will now be harder to defend and/or maintain again.

Re: Walls decay over time

NPCs are 'jumping' walls now so you can't shoot walls down anymore unless there is another player on the other side.

Positive changes, there was a need for some decay, considering walls have been out only for less than 2 weeks and the wall spam is just too much imagine what it would look like in a few months. This way defenders will have to think where to build walls and if you don't want to maintain them don't have so many.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Walls decay over time

Celebro wrote:

so you can't shoot walls down anymore unless there is another player on the other side.

^
This is wrong yarr

[05:36:51] <Lemon> i hate you... just so you know

[15:05:49] <Ville> I have to admit, that was pretty fu**ing pimp ^^
                           http://www.perp-kill.net/related/749

Re: Walls decay over time

I disagree.

Outpost defense walls are now make-work to maintain, and do nothing for securing an Island, because there's nothing to defend; outposts aren't attackable.

If you can't control and limit enemy traffic flow with walls, then there's no reason to use them for defense.

About the only use will be to create cover to be used tactically. Stragetic wall use is now too much of a time AND NIC sink to make it usefull.

I assume this is what the devs intended as an outcome of decay, and not just thinking that it will reduce 6000m long wall sections.

Re: Walls decay over time

Kanogi wrote:
Celebro wrote:

so you can't shoot walls down anymore unless there is another player on the other side.

^
This is wrong yarr


Well it happened to me trying to shoot walls and npcs jumped the wall so i couldn't shoot the wall anymore. Have you tried today because there has been a few changes?.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Walls decay over time

Celebro wrote:
Kanogi wrote:
Celebro wrote:

so you can't shoot walls down anymore unless there is another player on the other side.

^
This is wrong yarr


Well it happened to me trying to shoot walls and npcs jumped the wall so i couldn't shoot the wall anymore. Have you tried today because there has been a few changes?.


I know for a fact that u dont need a player or an NPC on the other side to kill a wall, and im not talking about bombs.

[05:36:51] <Lemon> i hate you... just so you know

[15:05:49] <Ville> I have to admit, that was pretty fu**ing pimp ^^
                           http://www.perp-kill.net/related/749

Re: Walls decay over time

@cobalt

With decay, I think the devs have shown why they didn't put in gates. Walls are now just for tactical use. Decay isn't relevant since they aren't meant to keep out the invading barbarians.

If the PBS system doesn't have some type of Empire building, as you call it, then that's an indication that Perp wants to just be a persistant World of Tank type of game, with small instant gratification encounters.

Unfortunetly, I don't think those 2 generes will mix well. Personally I'm not going to grind and build so players can just blow up bots in meaningless combat, so the player base will have to be more like Lupus, PVP players with indy alts producing for self-gratification.

Note to Devs: If you can tell me now which way your going, I may be able to save 3 or 4 months of wasted effort. Thanks.

Re: Walls decay over time

Arga wrote:

@cobalt

With decay, I think the devs have shown why they didn't put in gates. Walls are now just for tactical use. Decay isn't relevant since they aren't meant to keep out the invading barbarians.

If the PBS system doesn't have some type of Empire building, as you call it, then that's an indication that Perp wants to just be a persistant World of Tank type of game, with small instant gratification encounters.

Unfortunetly, I don't think those 2 generes will mix well. Personally I'm not going to grind and build so players can just blow up bots in meaningless combat, so the player base will have to be more like Lupus, PVP players with indy alts producing for self-gratification.

Note to Devs: If you can tell me now which way your going, I may be able to save 3 or 4 months of wasted effort. Thanks.

That's an incredibly arrogant statement to make. I don't know if you've noticed, but Perpetuum wasn't built solely for you.

Re: Walls decay over time

Yeah its always the same thing with "so called" sandboxes.  It turn into a deathmatch thingie because blood thirsty pvper are always the most vocals. Nobody cares about the ones that prefer CONSTRUCTION to DESTRUCTION. Too bad for everyone, im sure some (of the pvpers) would really like to enjoy some "godzilla time" in others built cities.

But once again we as a community lack the distant future vision about what the game will become. And like Arga id like to know what type of game AC wants to create for the future.

One last thing. Good luck implementing PBS with decay mechanics. IMO its a bad decision, you will exhaust harcore crowd and scare casuals/less hardcores.

tldr:  destruction always favored to creation.

Re: Walls decay over time

M Piquet wrote:

That's an incredibly arrogant statement to make. I don't know if you've noticed, but Perpetuum wasn't built solely for you.

If i was to make that kind of low level non constructive criticism on forum, i could have made it for monthes.

Funny that for once and as soon as  the less blood thirsty part of the community start to defend its point of view, it become arrogant and selfish.

Look at the forum. Its always been the other way around man. YOU are incredibly arrogant to judge your fellow player camarade about his feeling of the game.

74 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-02-08 22:41:00)

Re: Walls decay over time

Cobalt wrote:

Yeah its always the same thing with "so called" sandboxes.  It turn into a deathmatch thingie because blood thirsty pvper are always the most vocals. Nobody cares about the ones that prefer CONSTRUCTION to DESTRUCTION. Too bad for everyone, im sure some (of the pvpers) would really like to enjoy some "godzilla time" in others built cities.

But once again we as a community lack the distant future vision about what the game will become. And like Arga id like to know what type of game AC wants to create for the future.

One last thing. Good luck implementing PBS with decay mechanics. IMO its a bad decision, you will exhaust harcore crowd and scare casuals/less hardcores.

tldr:  destruction always favored to creation.

walls as they were would be fine BUT it was peoples need to build them en mass over every tiles that could be built on nearly.
The way walls were not being used to build a city.... they were being used to setting the game to WW1 style warfare.

And lets just remember how that ended. Not fun for a game.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Walls decay over time

Hahaha. We win! Good job AC! big_smile