Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Annihilator wrote:

and then locking and shooting them enabled...

I think they need to be lockable and shootable otherwise we will have cases of heavy mech gangs being stuck behind a hedge lol

+1
-Confucius

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Annihilator wrote:

imho, plants should simply grow everywhere MUCH FASTER.


I believe that this is a good idea.


Annihilator wrote:

and then locking and shooting them enabled...

The possibility of locking and shooting plants that are harvested for industrial purposes is not a good idea. The main reasons why I am against it are:

- Some players will deliberately destroy all the plants on the islands, especially on the alpha-islands, so it would be a big shortage in the market.

- This may be a form of griefing, for example, a player A harvest a plant, player B will be right there and destroy the plant, and it can work as much as he wants without any consequences.

Many years I was present in online games and convinced myself that there is always a small number of people who are willing to take every opportunity to make any harm to others, especially if the other party has no possibility for protection.

I hope that developers will carefully weigh all the pros and cons of introducing the idea of an incubator for all plants.

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Kaz, I think your line of reasoning is sound and valid for natural plants, however since players have control over where and how incubators are used, there needs to be a counter. Also, from a PVP perspective, it does give more targets to shoot at (even if they don't shoot back).

Also, while you can't currently target plants, PVP players are able to target other players (or NPCs) and then 'hide' behind plants and destroy them. It wouldn't surprise me to know this type of thing was already happening on a small scale. But in this case, its about making the incubators lockable, and not naturally occuring plants.

Bombs will be much more effcient at clearing plants anyway, time wise, at the cost of additional NIC.

29 (edited by Kaldenines 2012-01-26 01:52:27)

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Kazimir Casus wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

imho, plants should simply grow everywhere MUCH FASTER.


I believe that this is a good idea.


Annihilator wrote:

and then locking and shooting them enabled...

The possibility of locking and shooting plants that are harvested for industrial purposes is not a good idea. The main reasons why I am against it are:

- Some players will deliberately destroy all the plants on the islands, especially on the alpha-islands, so it would be a big shortage in the market.

- This may be a form of griefing, for example, a player A harvest a plant, player B will be right there and destroy the plant, and it can work as much as he wants without any consequences.

Many years I was present in online games and convinced myself that there is always a small number of people who are willing to take every opportunity to make any harm to others, especially if the other party has no possibility for protection.

I hope that developers will carefully weigh all the pros and cons of introducing the idea of an incubator for all plants.


There are ways around this problem.  For starter you could limit both the planting and the shooting mechanics to beta.  Secondly you could make plant growth rate on the island increase as the total number of plants decreases.  Perhaps not the most biologically believable scenario but it would make clearing the plants from an entire island futile while still allowing people to clear them near outposts etc.

Currently there is no way through a solid wall of plants unless you have either a harvester, a lockable target on the other side or a bot to blow up.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Normal static plants not targetable, player made plants yes. Also they may grow at diferents rates or have diferents stats like max cycles,since is like a wild plant vs an artificial made/sowed plant

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Rutuli wrote:

Normal static plants not targetable, player made plants yes. Also they may grow at diferents rates or have diferents stats like max cycles,since is like a wild plant vs an artificial made/sowed plant

You can already shoot down "normal" plants.  You just need something shootable behind them.  Not being able to simply shoot at tiles on the ground never made sense to me :S

+1
-Confucius

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Rutuli wrote:

Normal static plants not targetable, player made plants yes. Also they may grow at diferents rates or have diferents stats like max cycles,since is like a wild plant vs an artificial made/sowed plant

there will be no difference between player planted plants or naturall growing ones. You just seed them (at least i hope so)

personally, im not against this feature. knowthing that there is always a path that no plants can grow.
All islands we got atm are manually terraformed and prepared to leave pathes open for roaming spawns, mission locations and static spawns. Why do you think does it take so long to implement missions?...

though - there is one aspect that i really dont like:

with plants beeing something rather rare, and player seeded spots are probably easy to identify, this system is pro-grief. pro destroy someones hour long effort in a few seconds while he is offline.
Long and expensive building process, short time for destruction

I'd rather see plants growing MUCH faster, covering most of the islands with a dense forrest.
The server can track player movements  to create pathes where plants do not grow as fast.

Persistant Player-driven terraforming would be:
- removing plants from an area (bombs?, Aoe Weapons)
- placing walls and concrete groundplates to restrict regrow
- seeding an area wit incubators to get their desired plants there.
-...

griefing would be less easy:
- plants grow back rather fast, so you have to repeat it every day to have a reasonable impact
- persistant removing plants nees you to bring bulldozer equip and concrete.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Annihilator wrote:

I'd rather see plants growing MUCH faster, covering most of the islands with a dense forrest.
The server can track player movements  to create pathes where plants do not grow as fast.

I like it. Naturally seed the whole island and plants don't grow on the paths most trodden or excavated. Combine with a mechanic to remove non-harvestable plants and have certain areas where the plants that grow don't impede your bot and I think Nia will be a really interesting place to roam and fight.

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Anni-- Having heavily travelled areas not allow plant growth is nice but what does that do for miners and npc farmers?

Miners:

Often strip a distant field every couple weeks. This allows the ore to regen. They don't travel that path often so plants will grow and potentially block access to it.

NPCers:

LOS issues with plants will just kill blue and yellow pilots. It is bad enough that a grain of sand gets in the way. All the extra natural plant growth is going to seriously impact all but green pilots.... Less people killing npc=less NIC and less people researching/selling kernels.

Bombs could be the answer but I certainly won't spend millions of NIC to clear an area to shoot npcs for an hour or to get to a mining spot every couple weeks.

The answer is to simply make it so you can shoot plants without having an alt sit behind one and turning on both toon's pvp flag. Boost player grown plant HP a bit so it takes longer to kill them and make the incubators dirt cheap. 

Will shooting plants have some griefing? It sure will. Will there be a few people who walk up to you when you are harvesting and shoot your plants? Yep. Just remember that they already walk up and harvest the plant you are on, strip the tile that you are mining and come and tag the npcs you are already farming. The mechanics are already there and being used for "griefing".

Inappropriate signature.

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Scyylla wrote:

Anni-- Having heavily travelled areas not allow plant growth is nice but what does that do for miners and npc farmers?

Miners:

Often strip a distant field every couple weeks. This allows the ore to regen. They don't travel that path often so plants will grow and potentially block access to it.

Indus can use the plant remover. To find deposits, remember my countless requests for dynamic ore spawns and artifacting like geoscanning mechanic

Scyylla wrote:

NPCers:

LOS issues with plants will just kill blue and yellow pilots. It is bad enough that a grain of sand gets in the way. All the extra natural plant growth is going to seriously impact all but green pilots.... Less people killing npc=less NIC and less people researching/selling kernels.

Bombs could be the answer but I certainly won't spend millions of NIC to clear an area to shoot npcs for an hour or to get to a mining spot every couple weeks.

I think plants would have much more impact on green player, since they will waste potential more ammo and time on getting rid of that. although, im for more roaming npcs then static ones. lootdrops, NIC sources and such can be rebalanced rather easy (mission rewards for example, for meanifull missions, eg. "defend position"

Scyylla wrote:

The answer is to simply make it so you can shoot plants without having an alt sit behind one and turning on both toon's pvp flag. Boost player grown plant HP a bit so it takes longer to kill them and make the incubators dirt cheap. 

Will shooting plants have some griefing? It sure will. Will there be a few people who walk up to you when you are harvesting and shoot your plants? Yep. Just remember that they already walk up and harvest the plant you are on, strip the tile that you are mining and come and tag the npcs you are already farming. The mechanics are already there and being used for "griefing".

about the griefing: my concern is the time and effort factor. please try to get the content of my post

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

I'm with Scyylla on the griefing aspect.

First, these shouldn't just be 'seeded', they should be incubators, and the incubators can be targeted.

Currently on alpha, plants near outposts get harvested quickly, because transport from further out is more work. Putting incubators down near alpha outposts is basically a gift to the community, some will choose to harvest them, while others will choose to shoot them. Use them in remote areas, or don't use them at all, and just use the naturally occuring plants. Alpha is particularily aggrevating when you get griefed, because you can't do anything about it, except to move onto something else. That's alpha life.

The cost of these incubators... well, they should be player made first of all, that aside incubator should be cheap enough that really only the 'time' factor becomes relevant, and 1U size. Getting 50 cycles of Tiran isn't like getting 50 cycles of Norgalis (on alpha), and if it costs almost as much to shoot it, as it does to buy another one ...

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is these are just 'supplements' to the naturally occuring supplies.

Rapid growth is nice, but not too rapid, or it changes into a 'beacon' type thing, where you have a scarab full of incubators and just keep dropping them without having to move.

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

It is very bad idea as hardly incubators will cost as expensively as noralgis. And players will land impassable jungle, as protection against uninvited visitors on the an beta island's.

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

You will fight through my jungle befor you destroy my wall!!! get ready snipers...lol

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Anni--

1- So now to mine you have to harvest your way to the field?? 5 minute walk turns into a two hour harvesting and hauling session so you can get to your spot. What happens to the poor guy that only has a combat toon? Is he supposed to jump in a laird and harvest a path to his npc spot?

2- Dynamic ore spawns isn't a bad idea however it is just an idea at this point. These incubators are going to be introduced soon(tm) and will be interacting with the current mechanics in the game not ideas being discussed by the players.

3- Impact to green bots???? Yes it would impact them and let them kill the npc by shooting over the plants. The npc would clear the way eventually and maybe, just maybe that green bot would have to move after a bit. The yellow and blue pilots will not be able to do anything until the plants are destroyed by the npc under the current mechanics.

4- Time and effort.... 5 minute walk. 3 minutes of clicking deploy. 5 minutes walking back to outpost.

5-

Annihilator wrote:

with plants beeing something rather rare, and player seeded spots are probably easy to identify, this system is pro-grief. pro destroy someones hour long effort in a few seconds while he is offline.
Long and expensive building process, short time for destruction

I can do the same thing by undocking my symbiont. No reason I shouldn't be able to shoot them on my combat toon too.

Inappropriate signature.

40 (edited by Rex Amelius 2012-01-27 03:09:43)

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

OMG what are all you people talking about?! Specialty plants that incentivize planting them, putting them on pathways and blocking missions, creating hedges and rain forests, drawing a big phat p3n1s?!?!?

Slow down and read this part again...


DEV Zoom wrote:

... the system only allows you to plant incubators with the same rules that control the natural growth of plants. This basically means that in practice you could only plant something where it's already growing...

...it's not intuitive where you can plant an incubator; other than watching for the same type of plants it's basically trial&error. And we can't show you the "fertile" places on the map...

I read that to mean that we may only be able to plant on pre-designated tiles (or tiles where plants would spread to naturally given time). I doubt the Devs will have pre-designated p3n1s and if they do you'll likely never find it because they are not telling us where they are plantable. We have to figure that out for ourselves probably in the same fashion as is done with Noralgis.

Tile not for harvestable purposes ...damn ...click ...again

Dev's, keep it simple. Designate the tiles. Tell us or don't tell us where. This should not be about creating fabulous garden (yet), it should be about providing a way to replenish harvested gardens. Simple. keep it simple for now.

DEV Zoom wrote:

The question is whether it would be a good feature with these restrictions or not.

Answer, YES ...for now.


edit: fixed the grammer, kept the rage

Sparking to other games

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

DEV Zoom wrote:

The problem with this is that it's not intuitive where you can plant an incubator; other than watching for the same type of plants it's basically trial&error. And we can't show you the "fertile" places on the map for you because that would basically tell you where you can harvest helioptris on the whole island.

The question is whether it would be a good feature with these restrictions or not.

OK, idea.

Perhaps introduce type of Geoscan Charge for Plantable tiles. So, the same fashion we search for ore with area scanners and tile scanners we could search for harvestable tiles to plant our goodies on. If different tiles will permit different types of plants then simply create multiple types of charges. The view could be the same as tile view for mining.

While at that, add a charge for Noralgis before I go insane from click click clicking

Sparking to other games

Re: Triandulus/Helio Incubators

Rex - too much interpretation:

Zooms post means that you wouldn't be able to plant eg. eplisque on any green islands, since its not naturally growing there.

there are also areas that are blocked from plant grow (in fact EVERY misison location has an invisible path painted from station to mission location, and same invisible path is preventing you from completely shutting down an island with plants or walls.

ontop of that, there are "rules" for plants to where they grow and where not (like elevation, ground texture, already present plants).

The system is a blacklist where plants NOT grow, not a whitelest where they do (regarding the p3n1s shape)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear