Topic: SAP Visability

You are spot on with taking out island wide visibility of SAP timers as it was too easy to just hop on and off islands and ninja saps.

However you took it too far.  I waited to post this to see if my suspicions were accurate and now I think it is a good time to present the facts.

At the time of this post the last 37 SAPS have come and gone without one aggressor being successful and all but one are at 100% stability.  Or we could say that nobody cares anymore.  This is sad because when the visibility was high, it created PVP on multiple scales.  Someone would jump on an island and say " hey station x has an x SAP up!"  guys would form and go see if they could get a fight or at least pick off some can that had a bit of value.

Now nobody goes out to even see what is up.  Suggestion/adjustment:  You have all islands broken into sectors or "counties", perhaps the SAP timer becomes visible when you enter a sector of an island where an outpost has an active SAP.  This will allow more opportunity for engagements and bring back a measure of action from the SAP mechanic.  On the few stations where you can enter an island and be in the sector of the outpost, make it 1000 km off the teleport before any information can be seen.

TL/DR: you borked the PVP by over adjusting SAP visibility.

Re: SAP Visability

Like there was no PVP before I2.0. If you want a SAP, take care to scan. Gate arkhes won't cut it anymore.

Re: SAP Visability

Mark Zima wrote:

Like there was no PVP before I2.0. If you want a SAP, take care to scan. Gate arkhes won't cut it anymore.

Don't want the SAP tbh, just want a fight that doesn't have to be scheduled 12 hrs in advanced because I spent 2 hrs scanning 8 outposts and the only one that fits is 12 hrs out.....

SAP to PVP is borked, look at your news/intrusion events.  Facts are clear by all the little green up arrows!

Re: SAP Visability

The issue isn't with visibility it's no one can be bothered to waste the the energy and time to get an outpost when they can just ally someone else and use theirs.

Beta is full of reward but it takes more time and effort to live on beta or even so much as to form an organised attack against someone on beta that a lot don't bother. We see a lot of PVP (Less than we used to) going on but not a lot of intrusions. The system was designed to have very few outpost at 100% and very soon they'll ALL be 100%..

Anything the devs have to say as to why? They're devoting 100% of their time to the PBS system but look at outpost. If corps can hold outpost this easily because there is no reason to take over them are we even going to see a soul on the new PBS islands? Are we even going to SEE the pvpers any more as they're so far away.

Re: SAP Visability

Mark Zima wrote:

Like there was no PVP before I2.0. If you want a SAP, take care to scan. Gate arkhes won't cut it anymore.

+1~!

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Re: SAP Visability

Mark Zima wrote:

Like there was no PVP before I2.0. If you want a SAP, take care to scan. Gate arkhes won't cut it anymore.

I agree with Zima on this one.

This change took the lazy out of intrusions. It should have been this way from the beginning.

Takeo-- If you were looking for PVP in the first place by wandering islands and not just bouncing around to see what easy SAPs were open so you could ninja the loot, you would find plenty of fights. If you are ACTIVELY looking for PVP you would be in and around the SAPs anyway at some point in your ROAM. Too bad so sad it is harder for you to loot undefended SAPs.

Inappropriate signature.

7 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2012-01-14 22:56:11)

Re: SAP Visability

1) It removed the "easy button" of just jumping onto an island and knowing everything that was up.
2) It removed the "easy button" for grabbing the SAP loot.
3) It removed the "easy button" for harassing an opponents outpost stablity.

You actually have to spend time and effort to interact with these now, even if you are the defender.  Scanning for the next intrusion time, getting near to each sap to see if it is active or not, regardless of defending or attacking. 

I applaud the DEVs for doing the right thing. Either defending or attacking, all you had to do was get onto the island to see what was happening, and know exactly where you had to be for it.  This is excellent, please change nothing about this! 

The only possible complaint i would have is an attacker still can complete the sap and shut down the process, but the defender has to hang around for an hour with no way of completing the intrusion without negatively impacting the stablity of the outpost.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: SAP Visability

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

1) It removed the "easy button" of just jumping onto an island and knowing everything that was up.
2) It removed the "easy button" for grabbing the SAP loot.
3) It removed the "easy button" for harassing an opponents outpost stablity.

You actually have to spend time and effort to interact with these now, even if you are the defender.  Scanning for the next intrusion time, getting near to each sap to see if it is active or not, regardless of defending or attacking. 

I applaud the DEVs for doing the right thing. Either defending or attacking, all you had to do was get onto the island to see what was happening, and know exactly where you had to be for it.  This is excellent, please change nothing about this! 

The only possible complaint i would have is an attacker still can complete the sap and shut down the process, but the defender has to hang around for an hour with no way of completing the intrusion without negatively impacting the stablity of the outpost.



+1

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Re: SAP Visability

WoW.

So outposts that were really easy to take and keep at 100% stability and are now even easier to keep that way because neither the defender nor the attacker knows when the SAP time is up, and this is OK with you lot?

And I thought this was a PvP game.

The fact is, if an attacker wanted to take a SAP (and further ones) in order to take ownership of the outpost, they are going to do it regardless of the SAP visibility range or the loot from the SAP can. In order to create PvP purely for the SAP loot, both the attacker and the defender need to know when the SAP is up. Yes, the mechanic is to use an intrusion scanner and find out when the SAP is due, but rarely is an attacker and a defender going to align for PvP on one SAP just for loot.

You roam for two hours, scan some outposts, might find one SAP (undefended) and take the loot, but all other SAP timers are outside your playing time. You never found a fight. Why bother scanning for SAPs?

Heres an idea:

Develop a beacon that would give you the SAP times of all stations on an island, but needed to be placed 2000m away from any teleport or station, requires three players to deploy it and flags them with the usual PvP flag. That way searching for SAP times creates PvP, and the SAP searcher gets the SAP times of the whole island in one hit. Less time roaming for no reward, might spur a fight and you gain the timers to potentially steal or fight for a SAP or two.

Just a thought.

10 (edited by 0110011100001111001010001 2012-01-15 23:34:16)

Re: SAP Visability

KilsWitcH wrote:

WoW.

So outposts that were really easy to take and keep at 100% stability and are now even easier to keep that way because neither the defender nor the attacker knows when the SAP time is up, and this is OK with you lot?

And I thought this was a PvP game.

The fact is, if an attacker wanted to take a SAP (and further ones) in order to take ownership of the outpost, they are going to do it regardless of the SAP visibility range or the loot from the SAP can. In order to create PvP purely for the SAP loot, both the attacker and the defender need to know when the SAP is up. Yes, the mechanic is to use an intrusion scanner and find out when the SAP is due, but rarely is an attacker and a defender going to align for PvP on one SAP just for loot.

You roam for two hours, scan some outposts, might find one SAP (undefended) and take the loot, but all other SAP timers are outside your playing time. You never found a fight. Why bother scanning for SAPs?

Heres an idea:

Develop a beacon that would give you the SAP times of all stations on an island, but needed to be placed 2000m away from any teleport or station, requires three players to deploy it and flags them with the usual PvP flag. That way searching for SAP times creates PvP, and the SAP searcher gets the SAP times of the whole island in one hit. Less time roaming for no reward, might spur a fight and you gain the timers to potentially steal or fight for a SAP or two.

Just a thought.

I know that the DEV really will see right through this post, for what it really is meant to be.

Not to confuse anyone, KilsWitcH's post, not mine. yikes

Just Sayin
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Re: SAP Visability

I know that the DEV really will see right through this post, for what it really is meant to be.

Not to confuse anyone, KilsWitcH's post, not mine. yikes

No idea what you're on about. Does the world revolve around you?

Re: SAP Visability

Just a few thoughts.


A. Kill is dead on that PVP has now become ill, It was ill before I2.0, I2.0 was a booster shot that is now wearing off. If the "easy mode" sap intrusion event was too easy why were people atleast poping threw the Teles. M2S hit South Iset atleast 3 times a week and Morte was playing on Dom often. 1000m is crap I understand that some of the OPs have saps in the same zone as the external TP, I was living in one for 2 weeks at Koykili, Hell you can see the specimen of Koykili from the internal TP. If you want that OP then you have chosen to deal with that possible threat.

B. 50-60% is the magic # on OP stability once you get it to there you can basicly just not worry about your saps unless someone gets you under 50 and you have to worry about docking intruders. This is the real underlying problem, I'm not risking my solo bot to come scan your OP to check for a sap that could be 12 hours away and if im caught im -1 headslot for the stupid geoscanner. Unlock the OPs and make docking be a NIC thing. If I'm red to your OP i can pay 1 mill each time i dock yellow =500k. Just my 2cents on that. I would risk going to your OP to scan if I have the chance to re-fit and fight my way out.

C. Who ever says living on Beta is hard..... roll I lived there solo at Koykili for about 2 weeks and only died to NPCS in those 2 weeks (NUB PVER)

TL/DR
OPs shouldn't be locked but be pay to enter and SAPS shouldn't be so masked maybe not island wide but 1000m is crap.

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13 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2012-01-16 18:49:50)

Re: SAP Visability

Lobo wrote:

Just a few thoughts.


A. Kill is dead on that PVP has now become ill, It was ill before I2.0, I2.0 was a booster shot that is now wearing off. If the "easy mode" sap intrusion event was too easy why were people atleast poping threw the Teles. M2S hit South Iset atleast 3 times a week and Morte was playing on Dom often. 1000m is crap I understand that some of the OPs have saps in the same zone as the external TP, I was living in one for 2 weeks at Koykili, Hell you can see the specimen of Koykili from the internal TP. If you want that OP then you have chosen to deal with that possible threat.

B. 50-60% is the magic # on OP stability once you get it to there you can basicly just not worry about your saps unless someone gets you under 50 and you have to worry about docking intruders. This is the real underlying problem, I'm not risking my solo bot to come scan your OP to check for a sap that could be 12 hours away and if im caught im -1 headslot for the stupid geoscanner. Unlock the OPs and make docking be a NIC thing. If I'm red to your OP i can pay 1 mill each time i dock yellow =500k. Just my 2cents on that. I would risk going to your OP to scan if I have the chance to re-fit and fight my way out.

C. Who ever says living on Beta is hard..... roll I lived there solo at Koykili for about 2 weeks and only died to NPCS in those 2 weeks (NUB PVER)

TL/DR
OPs shouldn't be locked but be pay to enter and SAPS shouldn't be so masked maybe not island wide but 1000m is crap.

-1

A) Little if any hard core pvp was occuring around the SAPs.  What was occuring were ppl having easy mode detection of active SAPs, and on off hours for the controlling entity, ninja SAP can grabbing.  Which, from what I understand, was something 62nd was getting very pro with, and the millions that they made off of can loot.  Looking at the KB, the drop in pvp coincided with CIR leaving the game, and there has been consistant pvp since, some of the days with very heavy activity, including mechs and heavy mechs (thanks CHAOS for some juicy kills there)

B) the magic number is not 50-60 percent, the magic number is 70+ to get the lvl III upgrades, and anyone fortuneately able to maintain the 100% stablity, the complex upgrades.  Note, you said not going to risk your solo bot to find out what the timers are - but there we are again with the concept of risk vs reward, and sounds to me you want the reward without the risk.  As far as locking out ppl from an outpost, that's the whole idea, control of the territory, and once a stablity level is reached, the ablity to determine who docks there.  If it matters to you so much to be able to dock at a location, then work for it. 

C) Living on beta is not hard with the proper support and cooperation of those occupying the island, but it is very risky.  With higher risk comes higher rewards, and just because someone finds a location not frequented during the TZ they are active does not mean that there is no or little potential risk.

The problem here is that an easy button was removed for multiple people that was beneficial to them due to their game play style.  Now it has been removed and there are croc tears galore.  Once an OP is controlled, no one that the controlling entity has blocked should be able to enter.  And all of us, including some of those complaining now, begged the DEVs to add that feature for months, and now we have it.

Risk VS Reward - you want the reward of the loot can or the outpost, you have to take the risk to:
1) Scan for the timer
2) Determine what is active when the timer comes up

And all the complaining about this boils down to people that still want to be able to jump onto an island and know immediately what is active and where, and to be able to dock up at the appropriate OP to make it as easy and risk free as possible for them, with no diminishment of the risk to the defender.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: SAP Visability

Well everyone that wanted to have a stable outpost and never get a gang coming around to take away their precious can got what they wanted.

The SAP to 1000 killed the PVP that the devs put into the game to create PVP.  Nobody really wants anyone's outpost atm, so you have only killed small skirmishes over a 50 mill can.  You over nerfed it.

Now if we want PVP we will have to come assault an outpost to get a fight then be called the evil guys that are trying to push others from the game.  What do you want, small skirmishes over a loot can, or someone camping you in to get a fight.  i think all the posters about "new adjustment is great" don't really want PVP and want pick up their 50 mill paycheck in a can that nobody else knew about.  BROKEN!

Re: SAP Visability

I enjoy roaming, and would often report SAP timers to the alliance when I saw them, but that has become very rare since the change to 1000m was implemented.

I think a large number of the 'known about' sap events are from people spotting them while they are up, and a lot less are from the geoscanner. By reducing the range to 1000m you have effectively removed the passive spotting from the game, people will generally avoid going close to the outposts while roaming to avoid being spotted by a bot with a signal detector undocking/scanning/redocking which is very common on the beta islands.

So by removing the 'incidental' SAPs all that are left are the pre-planned ones, so either "lets do some roaming tonight - i'll log on in the afternoon and find us some SAPs" or the 'We hate XYZ corp,  lets hit every SAP they have'.

Hence the number of contested SAPs has gone down, the stability has gone up and the intrusions have more or less stopped.

Re: SAP Visability

Both Takeo and McCeeJ's arguements are spurious.  Looking at the data from the perp-kill board, which does not always show all the kills since it is player posted, you have the following data:

date    Total
January 16th    38
January 15th    20
January 14th    38
January 13th    33
January 12th    26
    Total kills for subsequent 5 days =155
   
January 11th    9        DAY OF THE MECHANIC CHANGE
   
date    Total
January 10th    15
January 9th    14
January 8th    28
January 7th    33
January 6th    19
    Total kills for previous 5 days =109


Based on the data, there has been MORE pvp since the change in SAP visablity.  Data Analysis, do you do it tumterkucfer!

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: SAP Visability

That could be well within the standard deviation(I havn't done the math on that), there's no evidence that there is more getting killed now, there is just no significant differences.

18 (edited by Lobo 2012-01-20 13:37:57)

Re: SAP Visability

Lupus not going to turn this in to a personal attack as you would like but twisting the killboards in to outposts being assaulted have some relations but not as much as you are weighing on. And what normally happens to the population after a patch? wow thats such a deep connection.

OP said it that saps aren't being ninja'd or contested like they were when it was Island wide. I agree 100% and like MrCeeJ said I also used to go solo scout islands in the off chance that I might A. get easy mode loot or B. Find targets for my corp who play in a later timezone. The mechanic of makeing the defender DEFEND for an hour is there for a reason. I'm not asking to know what sap is up in 3 hours I want to know if a sap is up with out going in detection range of a station. If i want to know when it will be I have no qualms scanning it I did that for 2 weeks on Dom during christmas and new years.

As for 50% being the magic # yeah it is auras don't matter here I'm not contesting that your taking a station for an aura but don't be ignorant and change the subject at hand solo players don't want to come scan a station that is A. Guarded B. can't be docked and C. Has no quick escape routes, that said 50% is the magic # as it grants docking rights. I'm not arguing the point that guarding your station is your right. You said it yourself that living solo on certain islands in certain timezones is easy, but dangerous. Should not the solo player get his reward for risking his solo hide?

Hopefully PBS will solve this ignorance.

Devs I'm not saying it was knee jerk as I guess that the proxy detectors were supposed to help this cause but we're unbalanced

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Re: SAP Visability

Island-wide SAP visibility makes SAP scanning unnecessary for attackers. One simple exploit - infiltrate an arkhe or sorta on enemy island, hide it somewhere, then just keep logged and check from time to time. In most cases you will know that intrusion was started right after the beginning, so all you need is to group-up your army and invade. With current defence mechanics that gives even more advantage to attackers than to defenders.

So if you want island-wide SAP visibility, add a feature that will allow OP-owners to see when and which SAP will start without the scanning.

Have a productive day, runner!
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20 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2012-01-20 16:33:20)

Re: SAP Visability

Lobo wrote:

Lupus not going to turn this in to a personal attack as you would like but twisting the killboards in to outposts being assaulted have some relations but not as much as you are weighing on. And what normally happens to the population after a patch? wow thats such a deep connection.

Actually, my presentation may have been a bit harsh, but tbh, many on these forums make assertations without presenting any data to support them, and frequently, the facts and data, if looked at, show the contrary.  No "twisting" is involved with the above, it's straightfoward and anyone has the capablity to verify it, making it "fact".

As far as "more activity after a patch", this statement is usually only true after a major patch, such as Intrusion 2.0.  As far as the smaller patches are concerned, it's harder to make such an assertation.  Now, after the subsequent patch, the one that added the prox probes, we saw a reduction, partially due to the disconnect issues, and also with the patch after that, which removed the prox probes.  Add to that the DDOS issue, and you actually will have seen a drop in activity.

The point being, making a global statement that removal of an "easy button" for SAP visiblity, and the current need to be withing 1000m of a SAP to determine if it is active, cannot be linked to pvp activity in general.  As far as serious attempts at reducing outpost stablity or taking over an outpost, currently, there are no campaigns underway.  In fact, there are too few corps even trying to own an outpost currently, and beyond getting one for your own corp and getting allies established on the island you currently occupy, no reason to even bother to trying to take over another island.

The only impact has been to make far more difficult for someone to ninja a can of loot, or to just screw around with an outpost's stablity just because you happen to be somewhere on an island when one went active. 

What the change in SAP visiblity has done is to make it so that someone has to take the risk of scanning an outpost and determining the SAP active to get the reward, regardless as of being the attacker or defender.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

21 (edited by Inda 2012-01-21 13:08:25)

Re: SAP Visability

change to 3000m from outpost nobody can whine

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: SAP Visability

Inda wrote:

change to 3000m from outpost nobody can whine

+1
IMO this fixes any SAP issues I see.

Re: SAP Visability

Detectors can see the open SAP from 2k+ already. So NO it's fine as it is now.

What would be good is for Intrusion window to reflect the actual SAP visibility distance.

Re: SAP Visability

Or yes what Mark Zima said.

But I wold like to see my outpost SAP -s when I dont in detector robot, then I can do in that 1 hour some constructive, competetnt thing at least farming, or mining betwwen the SAP is up.

In the old system I did it and my feelings was fine enough.

So if it changes to 3000 m from outpost I can do what I did before so that is good for defenders also.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: SAP Visability

Khader Khan wrote:

Fixed it for you

Scyylla wrote:

Hi! My name is Scyylla, I want everything to revolve around a blob! I want to be able to take 15 heavy mechs to every island and camp in people in off timezones. I am also scared to go near a beta island with out atleast 10 other accounts online and with in 500m of me. One day I will be as cool as Lobo, Pit Fiend, Kanogi, Immortal death and be able to solo kill a sequer with out *** in my pants.

Btw thanks for derailing a post not in CD tool

Devs feel free to tidy up this cess pool of trolling attempts.

This is such a propaganda war...
When the blobbing talk about not blobbing, even tho they have the largest allied force on the server.

OH but wait its all hush hush.   Were not really allied at all, we just kill each other without really killing each other.

I will say on the propaganda front you guys are for sure winning, just like PVP, you blob the forums just the same.

On a epic side note, of notes:

Saps and Sap visibility is just fine.  Balance for the attacker and the defenders. Both have to work to get the times and to see/ know what one is active.

Have a wonderful Day!

Just Sayin
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