Topic: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

patchlog wrote:

'''Change:''' Reduced the bonus of the Recycling extension from 3% to 2% per extension level.

wtf?

because you boosted again the beta outpost efficiency by another level in a recent patch, and production of goods not capped at 100% material efficiency, you nerf this even more??

or is that patchlog missing something?

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Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

It is missing the reset and refund of changed extension tbh.

The ones saying "impossible" shall not disturb the ones already doing it

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

The extension was reset and refunded? Good good. Only a rank 1 anyway..

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

No, it wasn´t, that´s why it´s missing...

The ones saying "impossible" shall not disturb the ones already doing it

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to start complaining!!!!!!!


Seriously:

People have been asking for more of a difference between beta and alpha.
People have been asking for more of an incentive to live on beta.
People have been asking for more reasons to own an outpost.

Devs delivered another step in the direction that the player base has asked for.

Inappropriate signature.

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

bah, i dont care abou that really -
i care a bit about the psychical effect:

having 50% recycling rate as maximum possible did already sound like "omg, recycling is useless", since a non-production guy doesnt know that you can build stuff for 60% or the materials that are actually in an item.
(what was a REAL recycling rate of 83% just extension and lvl3 recycling plant)

the introduction of lvl4 recycling plants made it possible to recycle with an real material efficiency above 100% !!!

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7 (edited by Alexander 2012-01-11 19:16:08)

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Recycling and production will never work well together when you have the two systems so they can overlap and PRODUCE materials..

+1 on the refund of the extension. ANY change like this should result in a refund.

8 (edited by Sundial 2012-01-11 19:40:46)

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Farming is already ridiculously lucrative as it is...

Just ask Ville, most of his MORTE corp miners turned into farmers.

This is a step in the right direction.


Scyylla wrote:

I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to start complaining!!!!!!!


Seriously:

People have been asking for more of a difference between beta and alpha.
People have been asking for more of an incentive to live on beta.
People have been asking for more reasons to own an outpost.

Devs delivered another step in the direction that the player base has asked for.

Another +1, but I still think recycling is unbalanced and I don't think this is the right way to go about fixing it.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

The recycling nerf is a punishment to alpha recyclers for beta recycling exploiters!  Cap recycling, don't punish alpha people.

10 (edited by Inda 2012-01-11 19:50:16)

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

+1 Joph

edit:
But after I thinking dont see any other solution for that :S.

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Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

recycle level 8 = 29% material ratio.
So for a new player recycling is a waste of time, something else not worth doing.

Stop all recruiting, And  screw alpha.  Lets just concentrate on beta, we can survive with the players we've got. mad

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Scyylla wrote:

I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to start complaining!!!!!!!


Seriously:

People have been asking for more of a difference between beta and alpha.
People have been asking for more of an incentive to live on beta.
People have been asking for more reasons to own an outpost.

Devs delivered another step in the direction that the player base has asked for.

and giving beta outposts more and more bonuses did help populating the beta islands all the time. Has always worked and will always work... /sarcasm

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

13 (edited by Grazskin 2012-01-11 20:01:52)

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

ya like recycling is a big game breaking issue.

omg, I quite lol

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Revert skill nerf, instead nerf L3/4 recycling facility so that exploits are not possible (if they were possible in the 1st place).

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Annihilator wrote:
patchlog wrote:

'''Change:''' Reduced the bonus of the Recycling extension from 3% to 2% per extension level.

wtf?

because you boosted again the beta outpost efficiency by another level in a recent patch, and production of goods not capped at 100% material efficiency, you nerf this even more??

or is that patchlog missing something?

So ...Previously Recycling extension at 10, in a lvl 4 facility = over 100% material efficiency? Bullshit.

I have Recycle 8 and use a lvl 4 facility, with no relationship bonus and I get 46%. Even at Recycle 10 I would have 52%. Factor in a possible 4.0 standing with the relevant corporation and at best I would be in the 70% area ... How do you get it over 100% Anni?

Please show me the math, seriously.

And +1 to Beta incentives that don't kill Alpha living.  If losing 8 or 9% of your recycling ability is a game breaker for a producer/manufacturer, you're either in the wrong profession or wrong game.

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Atticus wrote:

So ...Previously Recycling extension at 10, in a lvl 4 facility = over 100% material efficiency? Bullshit.

I have Recycle 8 and use a lvl 4 facility, with no relationship bonus and I get 46%. Even at Recycle 10 I would have 52%. Factor in a possible 4.0 standing with the relevant corporation and at best I would be in the 70% area ... How do you get it over 100% Anni?

Please show me the math, seriously.

And +1 to Beta incentives that don't kill Alpha living.  If losing 8 or 9% of your recycling ability is a game breaker for a producer/manufacturer, you're either in the wrong profession or wrong game.


I think he was talking of 100% efficiency relative to the cost to manufacture the item rather than the 'book value' which can also be modified by production extensions.

Say the item's book value is 100 Epri (what you see on the info tab).

Add in production skills and you can reduce it's cost to 80 Epri.

Now recycle it at say 90% of book value and you get 90 Epri back.

Spend 80 of those making a new one, keep 10 as profit. [All numbers made up and argument might be lies, just an explanation]

I assume that was what Annihilator was referring to.

If this exploit was the case then clearly the bonuses provided by the beta facility are too extreme. Now if the amount of bonus the beta gives relative to the alpha was ok, then shift the whole scale, but nerfing a single Extension seems a bit of a blunt way to remove an exploit or rebalance recycling, and to then not refund the points seems doubly harsh.

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

^^^ if that is indeed the case, and the issue comes from having the outpost recycling service to 4, then yes, the appropriate response is to reduce the outpost upgrade bonus, and not the recycling skill itself.  Diminshing returns - lvl 2 outpost should still deliver at the old rates, but lvl3 from lvl 2 increase gives a lower percentage return than lvl 1 to lvl 2, and even lower going from lvl 3 to lvl 4. This should be able to be done easily by the devs, and not a general nerf to everyone everywhere.

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Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Facility levels for recycling needs to be revamped. From the second a new player start the best place to be is Alpha 2.

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

The whole island expansion as a whole needs to be balanced we have been screaming this in the Past.  Lvl 2 facilities all at one place?  Oh bigger ore fields readily available outside the terminal?  More ore fields?  Oh very nice very nice.  So why should anyone live on an alpha 1?  Oh trade hub right... >.>;  Now the same applies to the Beta- 1 Islands, there needs to be a rehashed visit to the ore situation...

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Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

I don't have an issue with Beta Terminals having a better recycling efficiency than Alpha.
I don't have an issue with reducing the bonus of a skill to avoid a potentially exploitable situation.

However, I do have an issue with Ninja Nerfing, more so when Dev's don't fully explain the reasoning behind such actions. Ninja Nerfing, generates distrust of Devs, or particular Devs responsible for that area of the game. Failure to communicate the reasons behind a nerf and the need to ninja nerf comes across as "we are Dev's we will do what we want to do.... deal with it"

I also have an issue with not resetting and reimbursing the EP and the standoffish attitude the Dev team have taken on this issue. The Skill has been reduced by 1/3 of its effective value. As a result the Ratio between effective Value and EP cost has changed to the point where I believe the skill is too expensive for the bonus it gives.

In response to this I believe one of the following actions are required:
Either the skill should be reset and EP reimbursed so people can re-assess the skill and assign EP accordingly - However I can see that this course of action brings about it's own issues cause it sets a precident and raises the question "what is a significant nerf?"

The alternative and compromise is that the skills complexity gets reduced (say complexity 2) to reflect its reduction in effectiveness and the difference in EP gets reimbursed. I feel this is a more acceptable and transferable precedent which acknowledges the change in the ratio between benefit and cost. The precedent also affects buffs to skills in the future and players can expect that the complexity for buffed skills will get increased and will have their level reduced to match how much EP they had previously spent on the skill.

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Toggie tears=best tears

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Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Alpha producers are too fat. It's time to lose it.

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Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

Scyylla wrote:

Toggie tears=best tears

+1

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Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

lol at the tough guys talking about tears and beta incentives. Show me how reducing ALL of recycling incentives people to move to Beta. The skill is reduced everywhere, right? I didn't see the part where it was reduced from 3% to 2% but only when on Alpha. Show me the math!

At the end of the day it affects all and all will readjust ...except the EP I wasted getting to level 8. I was juuuust about to bump that to 9 so I guess it's good where it's at.

I will take a reset though, and perhaps an EP cost decrease to go with it. Yay!

Sparking to other games

Re: Recycling patch 2012-01-11

As with all changes if the rich don't get richer they complain.
If the poor get relatively poorer than the rich, they complain.

It's interesting to see who's complaining and who is offer solutions. tongue

For recycling to ever work a cap needs to be placed on both. No more than a 50% reduction in production costs and no more than a 50% yield from recycling. Train the extension to 10 and get a good yield on alpha and the best yield on beta but capped at 50% meaning you could train the extension to 8 instead of 10. Or train it to 10 in case your outpost drops below 70% or whatever level you quire for maintaining recycling.