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lol) Mongolia, do you know that rock-paper-scissors works only for semi-passive tanking? For specialized tanking its not working allways.
lol) Mongolia, do you know that rock-paper-scissors works only for semi-passive tanking? For specialized tanking its not working allways.
Alexadar, "specialized tanking", what is that?
My pre-nerfed Troiar and today the Tyrannos was/is not using specialized tanking. You get your skills high enough in the old-Troiar or today's Tyrannos, harnessing the logarithmic math, and you can tank anything. GENERAL tanking everything, anything, anytime.
Pit Fiend's Troiar Mk2 pre-nerf was not specialized, I just had the right skills higher than any other veteran and was able to tank 90% to 140% more dps because I had the right skills at 10's as opposed to the next best Troiar pilot having those skills at 8's. I was exploiting the Hungarian math, same as the Tyrannos pilots are doing now.
Improving two skills by 2 points should not double your tanking ability, period. Secondly, this further divides the gap between new and old veteran players, something I'm sure the Devs don't want to exasperate.
Improving two skills by 2 points should not double your tanking ability, period. Secondly, this further divides the gap between new and old veteran players, something I'm sure the Devs don't want to exasperate.
So if we improve two skills by 2 points, we double our tanking , and I'm betting that these are level 10 extensions.
That's not really balanced.
We talking about different things. In my world, specialized tanking is f.e. shield tanking with top extensions for absorption and energy systems, and with fitting what improve shield tanking as best as it can.
We talking about different things. In my world, specialized tanking is f.e. shield tanking with top extensions for absorption and energy systems, and with fitting what improve shield tanking as best as it can.
Alexadar, you are missing the point. Or maybe you are not missing the point, but rather you just want to deflect the issue.
There are plenty of "specializations" in Perpetuum. There is ECM/EWAR, damage, rep tanking, buffer tanking, stealth bots, shield tanking, etc. They all require a mix of extensions to work more effectively. Typically an extension gives a boost of 3% or 5% per level, so that a guy with a few more points is just slightly better than his lower extensioned opponent.
Also, because extensions cost more as you increase them you get the diminishing returns effect. This is the basis of the EP system that PO is based off. All extensions are supposed to work on the diminishing returns theory. Well all extensions except for 2 on the Tyrannos...
For ALL extensions in the game, if you were to go from level 8 to level 10 you will get a 6% to 10% boost per extension.
On the Tyrannos, taking the right two extensions from 8 to 10 should only boost performance by about +16%, but it doesn't, rather it boosts performance (or more specifically, tanking in the case of the Tyrannos) by +88.7%. THAT"S A HUGE BOOST for only two extension points.
I call that "increasing returns" and that is just wrong.
Not to mention, a Tyrannos with those 2 extensions at 8/8 is already able to tank a great deal. Getting those skills to 10/10 is just sick.
I summon Hunter's Wisdom to recalculate all equations and make answer
Type your calculations pls Mongolia
Type your calculations pls Mongolia
I've already sent the formula with examples to Dev Mancs and he has forwarded it to Dev Alf on Dec 15th and on Dec 23rd. I am waiting for a response back from one of them.
If I don't get one by the end of the 1st week of January, or if they say "working as intended" then I will make new thread with formulas and all.
They nerfed the broken troiar and the troiar is still very effective post-nerf. If they nerf the Tyrannos it still will be very effective, as opposed to being broken as it is today.
Your calculations are wrong then. 88% is lol.
Your calculations are wrong then. 88% is lol.
We will see soon enough...
Saving quote 
The most funny that i have no idea about what extensions you talking, because true (tm) tyr must have more than 2 right extensions.
The most funny that i have no idea about what extensions you talking, because true (tm) tyr must have more than 2 right extensions.
Wrong, there are ONLY 2 right extensions for the Tyrannos to level 10. It's even more important than the venerable Navigation-10. All other extensions for the Tyrannos can hover between 4 and 10 and it won't make much of a difference.
Now i got what i mean. Its very good that i have such enemy.
Is this supposed to be top secret information? Or can we ask what two extensions you all are talking about?
If you don't mind, which 2 extensions are at this point too strong?
Again there is more than 2 extensions to train good shield-tanked tyr.
Those 2, what Mongolia means, are not enough.
he is talking about advanced robotics and energy management.
since both really do what the extensiondescription does, the result is a exponentially higher recharge accumulator recharge rate.
The recharge time for accumulator is one of the very few extensions ingame where no so called
"hungarian math"
is used. For those who dont know this term:
if you try to figure out your eg. Missile launcher cycletime after raising your cycletime extensions, you will notice that you got LESS per level of the extension then you would have expected from the extension description. Same goes for any robot bonus which tells you -5% cycletime per level.
Player during beta had a very hard time to figure out the math behind it, because the description is simply wrong. This is where the term "hungarian math" started to come up. The correct extension description would be
"increase rate of fire by x%"
If you make a grafical interpretation of your cycletime (y) per extensionlevel (x) you will get an arc that starts steep at lvl1 and flattens at lvl 10
if you make a grafical interpretaion of your DPS (y) based on cycletime extensionlevel (x) you will get a linear graph
where every extensionlevel is increasing your DPS by exactly the same amount!
you will find this with 95% of all extensionmechanics
now there is the accumulator recharge formula, calculated rate of recharge = accumulator size / recharge time
unlike the mentioned extensions above, the accumulator extensions will do exactly what they tell you:
accumulator expansion gives you 3% more accumulator per level (+5% per robotics if the robot has that bonus)
energy management gives you -3% of recharge time per level (-5% per robotics if the robot has that bonus)
the result for the recharge rate here is for the accumulator expansion rather dull: 3% per level.
the result for the recharge rate here for the energy management is well:
EM 0: 100/100 = 1
EM 8: 100/ 76 = 1,32 =32% better recharge
EM10: 100/ 70 = 1,43 =43% better recharge, 11% better then lvl8
now on tyrannos, castel or waspish lvl10 robotics:
EM 8 : 100/26 = 3,85 =185% better recharge, 153% more then on a non-recharge bonus bot
EM 10: 100/20 = 5 =400% better recharge, 357% more then on a non recharge bonus bot
and this is mostly because the accumulator recharge formula and extensions do not use so called "hungarian math"
but alexadar is also right when he tells that those two extensions are not the only ones necessary to make a good shield tank tyrannos, because its worth crap if you cannot fit anything on it.
clearly it's not just 2 extensions to pilot a tyrannos properly, however certain 2 extensions make the tyrannos go over the top by what mongolia says.
What else you can say, except that "tyranos is awesome"
but alexadar is also right when he tells that those two extensions are not the only ones necessary to make a good shield tank tyrannos, because its worth crap if you cannot fit anything on it.
No you guys are missing the point. I know those 2 skills are not the ONLY thing necessary, but it's HUGE bonus.
My pre-nerfed t4 fit Troiar Mk2 -> if you took EVERY EXTENSION in the game at level 10 (minus Energy Management and Robotics) my Troiar Mk2 could tank -> 2 mechs
My pre-nerfed t4 fit Troiar Mk2 -> if you took ONLY Energy Management and Robotics level 10 (minus every other shield boosting extension) my Troiar Mk2 could tank -> 9 mechs
Those 2 extensions together give 4.5x more tanking power than all the other 300 extensions combined!
THAT is what is broken.
Annihilator wrote:but alexadar is also right when he tells that those two extensions are not the only ones necessary to make a good shield tank tyrannos, because its worth crap if you cannot fit anything on it.
No you guys are missing the point. I know those 2 skills are not the ONLY thing necessary, but it's HUGE bonus.
My pre-nerfed t4 fit Troiar Mk2 -> if you took EVERY EXTENSION in the game at level 10 (minus Energy Management and Robotics) my Troiar Mk2 could tank -> 2 mechs
My pre-nerfed t4 fit Troiar Mk2 -> if you took ONLY Energy Management and Robotics level 10 (minus every other shield boosting extension) my Troiar Mk2 could tank -> 9 mechs
Those 2 extensions together give 4.5x more tanking power than all the other 300 extensions combined!
THAT is what is broken.
That same trojar mk2 tanking 9 mechs would fall to a single ictus and one light bot.
Was the trojar overpowered--yes
Did it need a mild nerf--yes
Should spending 2-4 months of EP for a single level more in a couple extensions be worth it--yes
Should level 10 in an extension make you unstoppable--No, but it should make a significant difference.
Should level 10 in an extension make you unstoppable--No, but it should make a significant difference.
Hmm, what a question -> how much bonus should an expensive level 10 extension give over a level 9 extension?
Scyylla says "significant", whatever that means.
Anyone else care to give an answer?
Mongolia, I suspect people who drive green have already worked out which skills are needed for this.
Prior to the troiar nerf I made a tackling troiar alt which is still v useful today. It uses the humble little troiar Mk1. I may soon use the same account to make a tackling/neuting tyranos alt (again MK1). The next thing on the list will be the gropho (these will come back in fashion once there are enough people playing the game).
For those defending the current shield mechanic, you are either trolls or just too lazy to think about it.
If you are not convinced just ask yourself how would you go about countering a shield tanked, neutralising tyranos. If the answer is:
A) a massive blob (it would be interesting to work out exactly how big)
B) a dedicated, shield tanked vagabond
or
C) a shield tanked, neutralising tyranos
then you know its not well balanced.
if the answer is:
D) a cool new fit/combo
please share it with us...
Anyone else care to give an answer?
Mongolia
You say "its broken"
Devs say "working as intended"
Why you still argue?
Why they bothered to nerf the Troiar and not the Tyrannos is beyond me. And don't tell me that the troiar mk2 was unkillable pre-nerf because it wasn't. At least mine (Pit Fiend) was VERY hard to kill but other people who did not know which skills to skill up to what level were piloting easily killable Troiar Mk2s.
Totally agree, and I suppose we all know why only the Trojar went into nerf.
It may just be, that the DEV´s intentional or unintentional biased of who they are / were listing to.
In the words of a DEV:
"It's always unfortunate when the loudest players or the "big dogs" are right, because that immediately starts the conspiracy theories. "
In my opinion, the "theories" have been proven right, to many times.
I think I've said it in other threads, but imo, you can balance best, when extensions and modules work on a principle of diminishing returns, so, for skills, bonuses are applied based on your base level, eg a 3% bonus is 3% of your base level, which means the bonus is exactly the same for each level, but in % terms it decreases as you add another level to the skill. At the moment you have increasing skill cost per level which is fine, but its offset somewhat by the exponential increases some skills give. Maybe if that was done, the % per level of skills would need to be adjusted to take account of the lower bonus it was now giving, but I don't really see a problem with that.
The counter argument to this, is that you've put a lot of EP into that skill, so you should have a 'significant' advantage. I don't disagree that their should be an advantage, but the primary concern has to be overall balance. To be healthy the game must pull new players in, and encourage them to stay. So you have to both allow new players to compete, whilst still giving them something to look at as a long term goal in terms of skills, etc. So skills have to be useful without giving game breaking advantages. I think my suggestion is one way of doing that, there may well be others too.
Specifically on the issue of the Tyrannos / Ictus Shield tank, it seems to me that there is a problem, on the basis of the rock, paper, scissors nature of combat balancing in the game, with racial ammos only doing certain kinds of damage, etc. Assuming that system is staying, then surely the blue bots should get some kind of ammo that is more effective against shields? Since the fact that you do kinetic damage is irrelevant to the preferred tank of most Green bots.
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