Topic: Confidence Gone

Well, Devs, you've made it abundantly clear that your clients (you know, the people paying your checks?) have no way to air their grievances over wrongs real or perceived.  Continually closing threads that question recent events, or non-events, dealing with violations of your own rules only leaves people with a sour taste in their mouth and a rapid dwindling of confidence.

I lurk on multiple boards for multiple corporations, and among most I am seeing thread after thread of people telling the corp that they're either leaving outright or unsubbing for unknown periods of time.

Yes, new releases are always going to affect the bottom line, but when the players witness a panicked quashing of a legitimate grievance each time it is brought to the forums at the same time potentially strong contenders are being released (re: Skyrim, SWTOR, or even patches on existing games; Eve Crucible) only sends them to greener pastures or back to the same barren brown bracken that they left, often for similarly bad decisions, and blatant disregard for similar EULA violations, by those Dev teams.

I'm not portending doom; but you lack a steady stream of incoming players due to limited/no outside advertising and word-of-mouth rapidly turning negative can certainly have deleterious affects on future growth.

These things exist in all games, yes, and they always send people away, but doing so when the playerbase is small and the game still young only compounds an already shaky situation.  Quashing discussion of such topics moreso.

Listen up Devs, your players are talking... and few of them are talking positively (well, except those power blocs which suddenly feel themselves unassailable after a perceived violation was not only allowed to remain but any contradictory opinions ruthlessly squashed).

<redacted> wrote:

Sad to see you go, but I totally understand. I wasn't going to try SWTOR but after what's just happened in Perpetuum I'm giving it a try. I've lost all confidence the the Perpetuum development team. They will now have th earn it back.

I'm seeing this on numerous corporate forums.

Perpetuum is still young, but your hard work has shown considerable promise for a bright future.  Don't drop the anvil on your foot quite so early in.

Re: Confidence Gone

Just to make it clear: no topics have been closed that made their point intelligently and have not been created purely for trolling or breaking forum rules.

Re: Confidence Gone

DEV Zoom wrote:

Just to make it clear: no topics have been closed that made their point intelligently and have not been created purely for trolling or breaking forum rules.

+1

There's a new ticket system DESIGNED for this....

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

4 (edited by Whorum Post Alt 2011-12-14 15:07:16)

Re: Confidence Gone

DEV Zoom wrote:

Just to make it clear: no topics have been closed that made their point intelligently and have not been created purely for trolling or breaking forum rules.

I count five on your front page alone.  Yes, some of them contained the typical trolls who will attend this thread similarly in short order, but for the most part expressed the general dissatisfaction of many over the openly admitted actions of a few which violate the clearly delineated rules.  Several others simply grumble about their dissatisfaction over current events and their place as the trammeled masses... but the trend is clear:  They're leaving faster than they're coming in, and certainly are not calling the merits of your work to the masses.

This game is not alone in that, granted.  Eve Online has for years overlooked blatant, egregious violations of its EULA and done little (read: nothing) to bring such violators to heel.  Nor, admittedly, can they after allowing them for so long that a measurable part of their playerbase exists solely due to those violations.

It only takes a single rotten apple to ruin the cider, and when you've only got a gallon of the stuff that apple has a huge impact.

Getting out here on the forums and listening, and discussing it out, across every thread to express the Dev side view of things, the actions (in a blanket sense) being taken now, and what you're going to do to restore the confidence of your waning subscriber base, can only help.  And right now regaining player confidence is paramount.

Closing things just because people are whining (and people will always whine, no matter what happens) only leads them, us, me to feel that the violations are being defended, and rationalized as appropriate by those committing them and crowing about it.

I, for one, happen to like Perpetuum.  Despite a felt lack of ... well, lack of direction, I genuinely enjoy the play.  I hope to see future expansions that give me a sense of growth and fulfillment I have yet to find.  But at the current rate I am scratching my head in confusion, and am more than a little concerned for the future.

Ville wrote:

There's a new ticket system DESIGNED for this....

To report it, not air the concerns of the playerbase about what happens with such reports, or does not.

And to be clear, I've made a report against a pejorative attack made against me in other threads and the result:  Not a thing.  One wonders why my confidence has been shaken?

Re: Confidence Gone

Your attempting to troll.  Every post closed was by a forum pvper.  Just like your name which is a troll in itself.  You have not seen the mass exodus of a player base just 5 people being childish because they want to take a stab at one Alliance who worked there hands to blisters in game to see the success of themselves and everyone who got them there.  Forum trolls  such as yourself should be receiving bans.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Confidence Gone

Whorum Post Alt wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Just to make it clear: no topics have been closed that made their point intelligently and have not been created purely for trolling or breaking forum rules.

I count five on your front page alone.  Yes, some of them contained the typical trolls who will attend this thread similarly in short order, but for the most part expressed the general dissatisfaction of many over the openly admitted actions of a few which violate the clearly delineated rules.

The rule is very simple, discussing actions taken by the DEV/GMs, our moderation methods and consequently the EULA is not allowed on the forums. I believe this is common practice for all mmo games out there, I don't understand why it should be a problem here. Individuals are of course welcome to write us a support ticket (as they did too) and we'll try to answer their concerns.

Re: Confidence Gone

The general standard of posts here is pretty low, and people are often trying to have a go at someone or something rather than being helpful / constructive / genuine.

There have been many many posts that simply can't go anywhere or have no real meaning and they have been closed.

Take for example your first comment :"our clients ... have no way to air their grievances over wrongs real or perceived." what did you actually mean by that? It is patently false, you can post here (as you yourself just did), you can PM a dev, you can write a support ticket etc etc etc.

When people get upset they often write gibberish, and I am happy that the discussions that evolve out of gibberish get closed, as it saves me the trouble of reading them.

The devs have a huge amount of interaction with the player base, posting here, taking in general, responding to comments on their blog posts etc. You have no idea how lucky you are compared to many other larger games where your posts are simply ignored, or some minimum wage Customer Relations employee who has no real idea what is going on simply posts a generic "your concerns will be raised at the next blablabla meeting" and goes nowhere.

Take the docking times posts from the other day, the actual devs that will be involved in finding the bug are responding to the posts and getting involved in the discussion. That is awesome. Now compare the feed back there to the pages and pages of "lets just troll the devs about some decision that they can't discuss in public" and are you surprised they get locked.

Re: Confidence Gone

These are not concerns of the player base.  The majority  of the player base does not care about account sharing.  Only 5 to 10 forum posters who don't care how big of a fool they make of  themselves.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Confidence Gone

Ville wrote:

Your attempting to troll.  Every post closed was by a forum pvper.  Just like your name which is a troll in itself.  You have not seen the mass exodus of a player base just 5 people being childish because they want to take a stab at one Alliance who worked there hands to blisters in game to see the success of themselves and everyone who got them there.  Forum trolls  such as yourself should be receiving bans.

There's a bigger picture here.  Most people couldn't care a tinkers cuss for the in game achievemnets of another player group; more power to you for doing it.  To be utterly clear; good job on you work in the game, it is honestly impressive.

The concern is the 'ghost in the machine' element that lose ends allow for; if a precedent is set for making exception then the exception becomes the norm.  This is the bigger picture with which people are concerned.

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

Re: Confidence Gone

The truth is, the small player population greatly increases the importance of single large entities in the game. This gives the indication that these corporations have a huge leverage on us, and can force us into making certain decisions. Our stance is very clear on this, we do not bend, not matter how hard the wind blows. Our job is to turn this around, get a healthy population and we are working hard at it, to the best of our knowledge.

Also you need to consider that keeping our players privacy is paramount, so we do not have the option of countering the attacks on our integrity publicly, even if it means that we look like *** at the end of the day. Rest assured, your judgement is mostly a result of a lack of information.

11 (edited by Gharl Incognito 2011-12-14 15:32:53)

Re: Confidence Gone

thanks for being honest.  Lack of information has been my primary concern; hence the 'ghost in the machine' comment. 

Without practical examples I'd expect these are hard allergations to counter and practical examples are impossible as they require a privacy violation; I would imagine this catch 22 makes your situation very very difficult. 

I suppose all we can do then is applaud your integrity in keeping peoples private issues private whislt attempting to balance grieviences.

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

Re: Confidence Gone

Dissenting commentary is always percieved as trolling, when in fact it is merely a question:  Why?

The Who, What, and How is known and made clear.  Incontrovertible evidence has been provided, and we're not asking that anything concerning the processes taken to investigate it or the results be exposed.  Thus is the entire MMO Dev culture and well understood.  I could concern myself less about the individuals or groups involved, or even the alleged violation, only the fact that discussion about the occurance is being jackbooted into the floor.

It's about the confidence of those who have perceived themselves to have been wronged, rightly so or not, not the outcome of the aforementioned incident that brought all of this disgust to the fore.

You seek to attack me for the name I choose, which makes it plainly clear I am speaking for my own voice and not that of my corp(s) by using an alt so as to not drag politics into the discussion.  Very well, you may do so.  When we talk in corp chat and on TS I still won't attack you for your viewpoints; they're not germane to this discussion.

Agreed, much of the player base could give two tinkers about account sharing, but they are most probably very cogent about it.  Both what might happen to others who are doing so, and admitting it, as an indicator of what might happen to them should they be so discovered.  QV Zoom's post: they can't discuss it, and I'm not asking them to.

But witnessing the exodus of players I've seen for long or short periods of time over a single event is worrying.  I watched what happened when CCP made similar mistakes, but that was only after they had a big enough base to soak the losses.  But, as illustrated with NetFlix, even a huge base cannot absorb a perceived dismissal of client concerns, through the silencing or ignoring of such concerns.

Perception is both fertilizer and cancer; it can stimulate growth, or kill the patient.

13 (edited by Whorum Post Alt 2011-12-14 15:55:05)

Re: Confidence Gone

DEV Calvin wrote:

The truth is, the small player population greatly increases the importance of single large entities in the game. This gives the indication that these corporations have a huge leverage on us, and can force us into making certain decisions. Our stance is very clear on this, we do not bend, not matter how hard the wind blows. Our job is to turn this around, get a healthy population and we are working hard at it, to the best of our knowledge.


Agreed, and thank you.
Comments like these are what help restore the confidence of the ignorant masses who don't know how the pistons are firing only that the engine continues to run.

But awareness that the justice system has open and closed trials for a reason:  They provide the public with a sense that the system is working, and in general for their good, but also that they provide a certain degree of protection to the parties involved with the testimony.

A purely closed justice system, perforce apparently necessary in the MMO sense of 'justice', leaves those who must rely on the laws often wondering if they're being enforced.  Especially when glaringly clear, to the perceptions of those standing outside of the closed doors with their view limited to a keyhole, violators walk out acquitted of all charges.

I am not asking about what goes on behind closed doors; my concern is the big CLOSED sign that covers the entire editorial page discussing the trial from both sides.

When T20, an Eve Dev, was caught with his hand in the cookie jar the trial was closed but the results of it were quite open and lead to a major redirection of the entire process.  Yes, justice was and is still carried out under a veil of utmost secrecy (honestly, I do not know why, as they're just character names, not real people, so naming and shaming, showing the results of violating, should be a norm among MMOs, not a taboo), but when such openly revealed situations arise the cloak of secrecy leads to an increase in tinfoil hat fabrication.

Transparency has a very noticeable affect on reduction of tinfoil hat sales.

DEV Calvin wrote:

Also you need to consider that keeping our players privacy is paramount,

No one, anywhere, at any time, from either side of the bench, ever asked for any player information.  No one will.
That is two things:  First and last name.  Nothing more.
A character is a name on a screen, nothing more.  Property of your company, not the holder of the credit card paying for the use of that character.  It is the situation concerning characters that brings the attention of others, as an extension of the actions of the player behind them, but in the end it is only the fate of the character that concerns the gallery.  The player is just a control device that really does not have any place in the courtroom.

Re: Confidence Gone

Tbh there are better games to play where you dont get this rubbish.

My girlfriend said *edit: Inappropriate. - DEV Zoom we take on holiday if I stop talking about  my Xbox.

Yahoo! Skyrim.

Re: Confidence Gone

To the Alt who is afraid to post with his main:

You have absolutely ZERO right to know what punative actions or lack of actions that are taken against someone else's ACCOUNT.

Since you like to think of it in terms of real life think of it this way:
From here on out I want your bank and credit card company to inform every other customer they have of every late fee,prepayment penalty,deposit and over the limit transaction that you make.

I don't want your ACCOUNT number. But I do want to know every time you violate your limits and what the penalty is........

Much like I have no right to this information you have no rights to the actions of the Dev's in regards to someone's ACCOUNT.

The decisions the Dev's have made in regards to specific players is their business. If those players choose to share one side of the story, then that is their business. The Devs are doing the right thing in regards to any information regarding a player's ACCOUNT----- Not disclose it!

Inappropriate signature.

Re: Confidence Gone

Whorum Post Alt wrote:

A character is a name on a screen, nothing more.  Property of your company, not the holder of the credit card paying for the use of that character.  It is the situation concerning characters that brings the attention of others, as an extension of the actions of the player behind them, but in the end it is only the fate of the character that concerns the gallery.  The player is just a control device that really does not have any place in the courtroom.

This is a very good point; assuming that the 'character' in question only exits in the Perpetuum setting.  What's in a name she asked? In the case of the internet it's hand, foot and every other part that makes up the man.  So, if power and annonymity are the ultimate courruptor then holding the pixel man to the highest account is a major concern.

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

17 (edited by Atticus 2011-12-14 18:48:49)

Re: Confidence Gone

Ville wrote:

These are not concerns of the player base.  The majority  of the player base does not care about account sharing.  Only 5 to 10 forum posters who don't care how big of a fool they make of  themselves.

Seriously? Here's something to think about.

Let's say some corp decides to have 20 accounts they share among 50 or 60 players. Every time one of those players want to mine they grab the Riv Mk2 max skilled miner character and mine away for maximum return. Or whenever there is Pvp they grab the max skilled Ictus, Gropho or whatever. And these accounts are used by 3 or 4 people thruout each day. This corp would gain a clear advantage over others not account sharing and would quickly be able to build a stockpile of over 9000 fully T4 fitted mechs, along with unreasonalbe amounts of mineral reserves. They could in theory dominate entire areas of Beta while the single account player corps would have no chance to match. A clear and deliberate exploitation. Even this account sharing ALLIES would benefit from having such a strong friend to assist them. All unfairly. If they didn't share accounts, and were attacked by a small group of pirates and the Ictus pilot wasn't available, the battle may turn out differently.
Understand this?

Also if 60 people share 20 accounts that's 40 unpaid montly subscriptions to AC. That's a lot of lost revenue. Think about it. Finally, its simply a violation of the rules of the game.

Its not a small thing.

Re: Confidence Gone

Well put Atticus.

Re: Confidence Gone

Atticus wrote:
Ville wrote:

These are not concerns of the player base.  The majority  of the player base does not care about account sharing.  Only 5 to 10 forum posters who don't care how big of a fool they make of  themselves.

Seriously? Here's something to think about.

Let's say some corp decides to have 20 accounts they share among 50 or 60 players. Every time one of those players want to miine the grab the Riv Mk2 max skilled miner character and mine away for maximum return. Or whenever there is Pvp they grab the max skilled Ictus, Gropho or whatever. And these accounts are used by 3 or 4 people thruout each day. This corp would gain a clear advantage over others not account sharing and would quickly be able to build a stockpile of over 9000 fully T4 fitted mechs, along with unreasonalbe amounts of mineral reserves. The could in theory dominate entire areas of Beta while the single account player corps would have no chance to match. A clear and deliberate exploitation. Even this account sharing ALLIES would benefit form having such a strong friend to assist them. All unfairly. If they didn't share accounts, and were attacked by a small group of pirates and the Ictus pilot wasn't available, the battle may turn out differently.
Understand this?

Also if 60 people share 20 accounts that's 40 unpaid montly subscriptions to AC. That's a lot of lost revenue. Think about it. Finally, its simply a violation of the rules of the game.

Its not a small thing.

What you describe is not realistic. Some player would just decide to change the passwords on all accounts and sail off into the sunset. Account sharing is nowhere near this rampant. Accounts constitute a significant value and players are very protective of them.

Re: Confidence Gone

What is this thread actually about? Forum moderation or the MMO version of the Freedom of Information Act?

Devs ARE the Ghost in the machine, the Wizard of Oz, and those weird guys in black moving props around between acts.

There's no confusion here, a violation of the EULA occured and was dealt with.

Does anyone really want another player to determine thier fate outside of the game mechanics?

Its one thing to police and report violations, but really, its impossible for most players to be objective.

Re: Confidence Gone

Arga wrote:

What is this thread actually about? Forum moderation or the MMO version of the Freedom of Information Act?

Neither, it's about the lose of confidence in the Devs to enforce their own EULA.

Re: Confidence Gone

Well.. talking about dev moderation is a violation itself, so your putting them into a circular arguement.

If they discuss is, they are breaking their own rules, and hence prove a lack of confidence.

23 (edited by Atticus 2011-12-14 19:21:16)

Re: Confidence Gone

@ Dev Calvin:

You're right, it could probably never happen.  I was simply trying to illistrate a hypothetical worst case scenario.

I certainly am not probably referring to any in game occurences. Love the game, keep up the good work smile

Re: Confidence Gone

Arga wrote:

Well.. talking about dev moderation is a violation itself, so your putting them into a circular arguement.

If they discuss is, they are breaking their own rules, and hence prove a lack of confidence.

+1

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Confidence Gone

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/11/st_howtohelpline/

The piece of this article posted today that I found pertient about how to get companies to listen to you;

A well-placed (and much-Liked) post on a company’s page can get a response in minutes from a panicked VP. (If your complaint is deleted—a common occurrence—pile it on and kvetch about that, too.)

Except, really, a complaint has to be valid to get the 'much liked' part.