Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

fix armortanking: give us armor-repair charges for the injector (i think i requested that back in early beta)

shield tanking works based on accumulator - you can inject 250/0.100 HP=2500HP with a single charge on some shield builds. Same for each t4 energytransfer assiting.

i also suspect those tyrannos on fielded by chaos about 2800 Accumulator.

a T4 fitted ictus with lvl8 efficient neuting would neut 616 AP per module, ~1848 AP per volley.
with lvl8 EM dispersion vs. an evasive fit tyrannos: 1666 AP per volley

the suggestion of that m2s guy with two ictus and one Damage dealer would have worked actually, if they could have timed their shots exactly to deactivate one shield and then instantly shoot a volley of kinetic damage.

or... if you know any team that can deal a burst damage of ~30k pure damage (shields dont have resists) you could shoot down those tyrannos

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

27 (edited by Syrissa 2011-12-05 22:32:56)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

well as i said. i see no problem that the shield tank is that powerfull. while the shield is active it can absorb a lot dps. and dps is not the answer to a shield. at least not when you dont have superior numbers.

i see the problem in the fast reaktivation of the shield. using the cyle time to just lower it for half a scond so that your enemy can not react to that. just set the module unactivatable for 10 seconds after it went down. that is no nerf of the shield tank. but its a nerf for ppl who hide behind shields and still want to shoot whithout the chance of retaliation. this has to be changed.

when we (remedy) shot at that icus in the tournament for 20mins i had no problem with that. that is a heavy shiled tank. and it can not kill anybody. same goes for the trojar. i saw no need for that "nerf". well the trojar still is good enough, and still very hard to shoot down with pure dps. as it should be in my opinion.

i only see a problem with shied down -> fire -> shield up. and all in half a second. add lag of the game plus a good reaction time of the player plus the next lag of the game and you have no chance to fire in that hole where you lower your shield so you can fire out. and exact that has to be possible. if you lower your shield you have to be vunrable. not for half a second or even shorter. it has to be for several seconds.

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Syrissa wrote:

when we (remedy) shot at that icus in the tournament for 20mins i had no problem with that. that is a heavy shiled tank. and it can not kill anybody.

tell that those guys that lost a tyrannos and an argano to a lone ictus in that round after yours...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

29 (edited by Arga 2011-12-05 23:15:41)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

I think you ALL missed the deciding factor, it was not the sheilds themselves, it was the spider tanking that made this setup so powerful.

Even after they split up in the last round, they still had a 1-1 support bots. (2) DPS bots could probably have run one shield dry, but not before the other (2) bots could get there to reform the spider.

And as Anni said about difficulty managing, they were REALLY good at running this setup.


EP, gear, and experience: They deserved to win.

Edit: They also had brillent use of the shield cycles and had remote repping to top off any damage they did lose while down. The 'cycle' time works both ways, they had small windows which they used and the attackers couldn't.

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Syrissa wrote:

i only see a problem with shied down -> fire -> shield up. and all in half a second. add lag of the game plus a good reaction time of the player plus the next lag of the game and you have no chance to fire in that hole where you lower your shield so you can fire out. and exact that has to be possible. if you lower your shield you have to be vunrable. not for half a second or even shorter. it has to be for several seconds.

You lose significant DPS when doing the shield cycling. Its not like there were not sacrifices being made.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

31 (edited by Syrissa 2011-12-05 23:57:37)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

i do not want to downgrade the win of the chaos. that was a excellent plan and it was excellently excecuted. sure a deserved win. no question. and yes it was the spider tank and not the shield only. they might sill have lost if the shield cycling would open up longer.

yes you have to sacrifice dps. but what is dps? you only need enough dps to kill your opponent. in this tourny it doenst matter if it takes long, as long as you are perfectly save.

besides there is not only the shield issue. there are other issues as well. but i dont want to get too deep int this right now.

the problem i see atm that this is too strong against too many things. the only thing i can imagine to break this is heavy ecm to permanent jam at least 3 of them and then neut the last one dead and kill it with minimal dps. but of cource that would be a very risky build if they would just decide to change tactics.

i will still stay with my oppinion. the shield cycling is the problem. the shield can stay strong. if the cycling will not work as it is atm.

32 (edited by Sundial 2011-12-06 00:17:10)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Syrissa wrote:

i do not want to downgrade the win of the chaos. that was a excellent plan and it was excellently excecuted. sure a deserved win. no question. and yes it was the spider tank and not the shield only. they might sill have lost if the shield cycling would open up longer.

yes you have to sacrifice dps. but what is dps? you only need enough dps to kill your opponent. in this tourny it doenst matter if it takes long, as long as you are perfectly save.

besides there is not only the shield issue. there are other issues as well. but i dont want to get too deep int this right now.

the problem i see atm that this is too strong against too many things. the only thing i can imagine to break this is heavy ecm to permanent jam at least 3 of them and then neut the last one dead and kill it with minimal dps. but of cource that would be a very risky build if they would just decide to change tactics.

i will still stay with my oppinion. the shield cycling is the problem. the shield can stay strong. if the cycling will not work as it is atm.

What would the point of a shield tank be if the moment you switched it off you were dead before being able to bring it back up?

Their setup was slow, did low DPS.

The tournament is not like actual gameplay because speed and high DPS didn't matter here.

You can't balance the game around an event that happens once a year in a different format than the game is normally played.

In normal gameplay you could simply range / run from them or bring backup to counter their tactics. This isn't normal gameplay.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

33 (edited by Arga 2011-12-06 01:21:07)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Longer down times will make sheilds useless for DPS tanking bots.

Sheilded bots don't typically use plates (or resists), because the idea is to have as much ACC as possible so the sheild doesn't get broken. If you start trading off rechargers for resist plates in your legs, your gimping your sheild for armor you never want to use.

However, if sheilds have a longer downtime, then you have to assume your bot is going to get hit, which means putting on plates or resists. But since your ACC is reduced, there's a good chance that you won't have enough ACC to acutally shoot now when you do drop the sheilds.

Edit: And you have to fit a repper to fix the damage when the sheild comes back up

Not fitting 100% for sheild tanking means your just protected against dents and scratches.

Meanwhile, the armor tank gets to fit completely for armor tank, making it the much better choice; meaning sheilds are useless on DPS bots and will only be used on support bots.

But, as was pointed out, only 1 faction is setup with Repper bonuses, so THAT bot is now really the only choice if you want a "Brawling" bot.

Tl;dr - ChangIt sounds simple enough to make that change, but nothing happens in a vaccum. You have to look at all the ramifications of a change.

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

ChoRiz0 Balboa wrote:

How Many Modules You Need To Tank Like A Beast In A Shield Tank.. Hardeners, Shield And Injector.(3 Modules)
How Many Modules You Need To Tank Like A Beast In Armor Tank... Repair, Hardeners, Plated, Tunnings And Injector (5 Modules)

Shield Need A Big Change Or Armor Need One. But Right Now They Are Not Even Close To Be Equal



Um if im not wrong to make a beast shield tank u need

Shield/hardener/esvasive/accumulator Aux/injector
all these mods are aobuth the same as the ones ur mentoning for armor

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

I think it's not a shields need to be reworked but resists. I mean. look at the greenies - they allhave bonuses to accu if not to shields on all bots. Blues have bonuses to armor repair on all bots. Now look at the yellows - Seth and Bapho have bonus to accu size instead of resist or HP. Maybe these two can be reworked somehow to make them suit better for resist tanking?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

sad I hope half the ideas in this thread so far don't even get considered.  I'd fully support bringing armor tanking back in proper form though.  Nerfing the Troiar's accu recharge was a bad idea too, it totally missed the point of the general problems w/shield tanking right now vs rep and resist tanking.  Shield absorption ratio math and accu math needs to be tweaked.  And lets move evasive modules from a fixed number to a scalable percent. 

I was glad to see Troiars get a neut amount increase, although I think it was a terrible idea taking neuts off of a 10 second cool down.  For Troiar pilots it's going to be great to re-lock a chameleon after his ECM and be able to neut him dry with our 8 second neut cool down while that poor bastard is on a 10 second cool down for his second ECM attempt and can never catch back up with the EWAR cycle because 8 second neuts are perma-raping him.

I'm getting off topic.  I like the idea of shields being super tanky, but I do think some tweaking needs to be done.  I think a lot of us would agree, though, that the the real problem is armor tanking isn't anywhere near up to snuff.

37 (edited by Khalvarik 2011-12-06 10:57:43)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

I think the big conclusion can be made that shields really are not a proplem. The real problem is the lack of a good armor counter. My suggestion is to bring erp back to where they were before the nerf as that gives a great equaliser to the shiels tanks we have now.
Remeber the way to beat both of these is strong neuting combind with good ecm. We want a good ballance and this gives people the option to have either shild or armor in a combat situation.

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

ERP was only a problem for groups that were uncapable of recognizing the need to bring a dedicated Ictus pilot.

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Naismith wrote:

ERP was only a problem for groups that were uncapable of recognizing the need to bring a dedicated Ictus pilot.

mostly a problem for groups that could not hold themselfs from shooting at the target until it got into some accumulator issues.

afaik small neuts and no dps could kill most erp tank builds.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

40 (edited by Sundial 2011-12-06 16:50:18)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Annihilator wrote:
Naismith wrote:

ERP was only a problem for groups that were uncapable of recognizing the need to bring a dedicated Ictus pilot.

mostly a problem for groups that could not hold themselfs from shooting at the target until it got into some accumulator issues.

afaik small neuts and no dps could kill most erp tank builds.

Its too bad the math on armor tuners does not scale like the shield hardeners do the give diminishing returns so fast.

IMO the entire math behind Armour tanking needs to be reevaluated and rebalanced so it is just as viable as shield tanking but also scales well so you can't tank 2000DPS

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

with armor "tuners" i gues you mean the resist plates.

if you compare shield HP with Armor HP you can see one major difference:

shield HP = accumulator * shieldefficieny
shield HP recharge with accumulator 1:1, cycletime 0.03s
if you increase your buffer hitpoints by adding an aux accumulator, you dont change the time until 100%

armor HP = armor * resist
armor HP regeneration = repair module that converts AP into HP with a very bad cycletime, and bad ratio.
if you increase your buffer hitpoints by adding armor plates, you also incrase the time and AP you need to get back to 100%.

about the spiderweb mechanics:
if you want to support a shield tank, you only need an energy transfer module. how much HP you "heal" on the target depends on the targets tunings

if you want to support an armor-tank, you need a Remote repair module AND Tunings for them. how much HP you "heal" on the target depends on your tunings and the targets resists.

Its rather complicated. but yes - the dimishing returns on resist plates, the penalties of armor plates and the kinda broken accu-recharge formula (in general, not per bot) are factors that make shield tanks more effective then armor tanks.

tl;dr: endgame is not in shields, but in pure DPS and Neuts... big_smile

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Annihilator wrote:

with armor "tuners" i gues you mean the resist plates.

if you compare shield HP with Armor HP you can see one major difference:

shield HP = accumulator * shieldefficieny
shield HP recharge with accumulator 1:1, cycletime 0.03s
if you increase your buffer hitpoints by adding an aux accumulator, you dont change the time until 100%

armor HP = armor * resist
armor HP regeneration = repair module that converts AP into HP with a very bad cycletime, and bad ratio.
if you increase your buffer hitpoints by adding armor plates, you also incrase the time and AP you need to get back to 100%.

about the spiderweb mechanics:
if you want to support a shield tank, you only need an energy transfer module. how much HP you "heal" on the target depends on the targets tunings

if you want to support an armor-tank, you need a Remote repair module AND Tunings for them. how much HP you "heal" on the target depends on your tunings and the targets resists.

Its rather complicated. but yes - the dimishing returns on resist plates, the penalties of armor plates and the kinda broken accu-recharge formula (in general, not per bot) are factors that make shield tanks more effective then armor tanks.

tl;dr: endgame is not in shields, but in pure DPS and Neuts... big_smile

I meant: Armor Rep tuners need a big buff but need diminishing returns like the math on shield hardeners. This really would require a rebalancing of repper mechanics across the board though.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

ME WANT ARMOUR TANKING!!!!

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

why do you guys keep forgetting you can't shoot through shields, a tyrannos can't suck you dry (you can shoot every  30 seconds or so \o/)  but you can keep shooting him until he runs out of injector charge or you run out of ammo

you have to keep in mind, when you use shield, you can have them active and only use ewar mods, making you effectively useless solo, or you can turn them off and be incredibly weak but be able to shoot back.

armor tanking doesn't have to choose \o/

and for all you h8rs out there, i think i've fought against or with maybe 10 people who have the ability to cycle their weapons with their shields fuuu

ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNO POKI

*official mascot of NeX*

45 (edited by Norrdec 2011-12-07 08:59:30)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Getting a buff bot to get you a invincible tank is not too uncommon.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Still, nothing good for resist tanking atm.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Or right I wasn't specific, I was thinking of the shielded bot.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Which duo is harder to counter and kill?

Sheilded Gargoyle with energy transfer feeding -

Sheilded DPS
or
Armor Tank DPS

And what would you use to do it?

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

Arga wrote:

Which duo is harder to counter and kill?

Sheilded Gargoyle with energy transfer feeding -

Sheilded DPS
or
Armor Tank DPS

And what would you use to do it?

Apples to oranges, you would use a remote repper bot on both configurations anyway. Only difference would be the shielded one would have more energy transfer.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

50 (edited by Arga 2011-12-07 22:39:06)

Re: Why is end game all in shields?!

I wasn't trying to be rhetorical.

If you knew there were these 2 types of setups, say sitting on a SAP, which one would be harder to knock off, and what would you need to do it? The minimal amount to do it, because of course a blob of suffcient size could do it, but what about (2) Seths or 2 DPS and a neuter.

I just strikes me that the Armor tank would be harder, since it could DPS back the whole time, so you would need your own tank setup to counter it.

Edit: Meaning without being able to neuter and make attacking bots harmless, the DPS sheilded bot would be hard pressed to find a way to lower sheilds to fight back.