Topic: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Rumor has it that there is a proposed fix designed specifically for the Troiar Mk2's ability to tank massive dps.  Specifics of the fix have leaked and I implore a DEV to speak to me before making any changes.  Especially if changes will only function as a band-aid without fixing the real underlying issues.

I will admit that I was the biggest abuser of this mechanic.  I have had my fun for the past 4 months and 1) as I am fully satisfied and 2) I am intimately aware of the math, I am offering my services for a proper fix.

My fix (which is actually 3 separate fixes) is a more radical one compared to the one that was leaked.  The math behind my fix is more elegant (read: move away from Hungarian math) and will address fixes for other bots types which are broken but won't show for several months as players skill up to high levels. 

I offer a one time fix which will solve the particular issue of today as well as the issues of tomorrow.  An ancillary benefit of my solution is that in the particular case of the future fix, no one will be the wiser and there will be less forum complaining, as was on full display with the much needed ERP nerf of several months ago.

I offer solutions, not whines  smile.

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

It would be nice to get a better shield mechanic. Perhaps make NOTHING work through shields? wink

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

may i ask what u offer as a fix pretty plz? smile)

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Alexander wrote:

It would be nice to get a better shield mechanic.

I agree with that. Part of the problem with Troiars mk2 lies not only in their accumulator recharge times to keep sustainable shield, but also (maybe even greater than accumulator) in the Surface Hit Size of the robot being buffed by Evasive module + Evasive NEXUS (makes it a lot harder to hit robot, drain robot), what AT THE SAME TIME positively affects the shield absorption ratio (makes even bigger tank). This is either due to faulty, miscalculated mechanic or due to actual flaw/bug; but it must be fixed appropriately.

Our effective solution to that is to give robots the Surface Hit Size of the shield radius when they activate the shield.
An example of that:

Let's take troiar mk2 with just an evasive module:

  • it's Surface Hit Size is 2.75 by default, being buffed by Evasive Module down to 1.60.

  • Small t4 shield radius is 4.

So the solution is to give that Troiar the Surface Hit Size stat equal to shield's radius (4) when the shield is activated, instead of current 1.60 (what, let's mention again, decreases shield absorption ratio...). Why so?

  • It completely fixes and balances the currently existing problem with tanked troiars and possibility to exploit that mechanic on certain other bots that can be foreseen.

  • It encourages to use Evasive buffs as they are meant to be used (chance-based mechanic), instead of shielding your robot's tank sky-high.

  • It makes perfect logical sense: no matter what part of the shield you hit, you still hit it! And the size of the shield is 4 or whatever number it is, so the actual size of the robot's surface should be 4 when it is activated.

To conclude this: yes, fix to that problem needs to be introduced, as it currently has a wide perspective to become a killer of small/medium scale pvp/ganks; and the fixing hardly ends only in fixing the accumulator recharge rate. However, buffs for small drainers/neuts is a very good and welcomed measure as well! smile

/Thx Dark Omega for that idea.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

[relay opened]
Great ALF!
Great one!
Hear my prays!
Don't listen to players, do your job!
[/relay closed]

6 (edited by Estamel Tharch0n 2011-11-13 17:22:57)

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Personaly i think its just better to increase troiars base surface 

i also belive the mechanics for the shield is cool sins a shield of 3m  will have negative ration on a bot whit 4m surface but possitive on a bot whit 2m witch might be the problem combined whit the rechargrate.  i am not a troiar guy but possibly a injector will be a overkill aswell ??


Also wuldnt it be better having a accumulator exspansion bonus insted of recharge shuld fit better whit shield HP/buffer/tank  sins it whont last forever but for a shorter periode of time also lets player use their head insted of fiting 3 neuts and perma tank/neut

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

issue lies in recharge formula

its NOT using the so called hungarian math...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Alexander wrote:

It would be nice to get a better shield mechanic. Perhaps make NOTHING work through shields? wink

Yeah, make us demob,ecm,supression immune! Great Idea!

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

he meant that the shielded bot cannot use anything. thats not a solution either.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

None of the solutions given above deal with the real underlying problem.  The way a larger shield tanks a smaller sized bot is a symptom (albeit a bad symptom) but not the actual problem, nice try. 

Again I am available if any DEV is interested.

Annihilator wrote:

issue lies in recharge formula

its NOT using the so called hungarian math...

The recharge formula DOES USE Hungarian math.  That's exactly the problem with it.  It's one of the things that needs to be fixed.

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

it does?
would you think this one would be better:

Cap_recharge_rate = (Max_Cap/Cap_Recharge_time) * max(somesmallnumber, {5 * sqrt [(1-cap%)^2-(1-cap%)^4]} )

to my understanding, the so called hungarian math is whenever you face the factor 1/(1+x). in any of the "time reduction" extensions or game mechanics.

and in this case its not present - recharge time is reduced straight by the given % displayed, which leads to give you an exponential result at the recharge rate

all other misunderstood formulas end up in a linear increase of the affected rate

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Annihilator wrote:

it does?
would you think this one would be better:

Cap_recharge_rate = (Max_Cap/Cap_Recharge_time) * max(somesmallnumber, {5 * sqrt [(1-cap%)^2-(1-cap%)^4]} )

to my understanding, the so called hungarian math is whenever you face the factor 1/(1+x). in any of the "time reduction" extensions or game mechanics.

and in this case its not present - recharge time is reduced straight by the given % displayed, which leads to give you an exponential result at the recharge rate

all other misunderstood formulas end up in a linear increase of the affected rate

I never knew the exact formula for recharge, copy-pasted, thanks  smile.

The problem in your simplified formula is in this little part -> Max_Cap/Cap_Recharge_time.  Hungarian math is hidden within this little kernel.

Stop thinking like Newton and start thinking more like Einstein .

13 (edited by Sundial 2011-11-13 23:24:45)

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Weedy wrote:
Alexander wrote:

It would be nice to get a better shield mechanic.

I agree with that. Part of the problem with Troiars mk2 lies not only in their accumulator recharge times to keep sustainable shield, but also (maybe even greater than accumulator) in the Surface Hit Size of the robot being buffed by Evasive module + Evasive NEXUS (makes it a lot harder to hit robot, drain robot), what AT THE SAME TIME positively affects the shield absorption ratio (makes even bigger tank). This is either due to faulty, miscalculated mechanic or due to actual flaw/bug; but it must be fixed appropriately.

Our effective solution to that is to give robots the Surface Hit Size of the shield radius when they activate the shield.
An example of that:

Let's take troiar mk2 with just an evasive module:

  • it's Surface Hit Size is 2.75 by default, being buffed by Evasive Module down to 1.60.

  • Small t4 shield radius is 4.

So the solution is to give that Troiar the Surface Hit Size stat equal to shield's radius (4) when the shield is activated, instead of current 1.60 (what, let's mention again, decreases shield absorption ratio...). Why so?

  • It completely fixes and balances the currently existing problem with tanked troiars and possibility to exploit that mechanic on certain other bots that can be foreseen.

  • It encourages to use Evasive buffs as they are meant to be used (chance-based mechanic), instead of shielding your robot's tank sky-high.

  • It makes perfect logical sense: no matter what part of the shield you hit, you still hit it! And the size of the shield is 4 or whatever number it is, so the actual size of the robot's surface should be 4 when it is activated.

To conclude this: yes, fix to that problem needs to be introduced, as it currently has a wide perspective to become a killer of small/medium scale pvp/ganks; and the fixing hardly ends only in fixing the accumulator recharge rate. However, buffs for small drainers/neuts is a very good and welcomed measure as well! smile

/Thx Dark Omega for that idea.

The thing about this is the reason for the shield being stronger is that it has to cover less area.

So while the text displays 4m shield size, it actually only covers just around the bot. Working as intended. The whole "sphere shield" thing is just a lazy display of it.

If your fix were to be executed, T4 shields would be worse than T3, and probably even T1/T2.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Pit fiend, i just copy/pasted the Eve formula there, its not the Perpetuum one, which is... simplier then that, but doing the same

recharge rate = accumulator / time -> that mechanic is exactly the same in perp and eve.

i dont know how extensions or bonuses work in eve:

but in perp, when you raise anything extensionwise that affectes the time, it will have a inverse proportianal effect on the recharge rate because its NOT using the hungarian math:

  • Example:
    100 AP / 100s = 1 AP/s

  • current non-hungarian math method:
    100 AP / 100s * (1-0.5) = 2 AP/s
    see, the 50% accu recharge bonus of any missile bot results in a 2x higher recharge rate.

  • If the hungarian math would be used:
    100 AP / 100s / (1+0.5) = 100AP / 66,66s  = 1,5 AP/s <- this would be a 50% recharge rate bonus

for the lazy ones - the later is what happens on the seth, bapho, sequer and lithus, by increasing the buffer AP.

The second fail math: rechargers working as -x% time, and accu modules working as +x.
A Troiar has 425 AP base accumulator - add a 430 AP medium accu to it and you basicly increase your recharge rate by more then 100%, which is multiplied with the recharge bonus of the bot.
The same Medium accumulator on my seth, which has 4300 AP base, will increase my recharge rate by 10% - and that is totally independant of the robot bonus.
Adding more then one accu module will have dimishing returns at the recharge rate.

oppositte effect is with recharger modules (which have lower fitting requirements): the more you add the higher the effect of the next one. (1 T4 = 21% higher rate, 2 t4 = 47%

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Annihilator wrote:

[*]current non-hungarian math method:
100 AP / 100s * (1-0.5) = 2 AP/s
see, the 50% accu recharge bonus of any missile bot results in a 2x higher recharge rate.[/*]

That formula is NOT the full pelistal recharge formula.  I'm sorry, but there IS Hungarian math hidden in there that you are missing.


As far as the accumulator rechargers and aux accumulators personally I don't have a problem with their non-uniformity.  They don't break the game, plus they add flavor and there are obviously pros and cons for each module type.  This adds options and depth to the game which is a good thing.

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Topic is very rotten ...

1) You raise your skills, produce expensive equipment.
2) You get the advantage in a certain aspect.
3) Whining on the forum.
4) Nerf.
5) Your indignation on the forum. Everyone thinks that you're whining (forgetting their whining).
6) Made by the additional crutch. (candy)

I sympathize with you Pit.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Pit fiend - care to elaborate?

i got every extension related formula figured out through the two years. my spreadsheet is producing exactly the values displayed ingame - no matter what i fit or which spark, or which extension i raise.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

In the very least--the leaked proposed "fixes" for the "problem" people are having against MK2's are totally missing the point.  Actually, all you're going to do is make my Troiar better at neuting, as a workaround has already been found for the tank changes.

In the interest of cleaner balance, you might want to take a second, or third look at how you're going to be changing the MK2's.  Why MK1's need to be affected also, is beyond me, they were never hard to kill.

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

could you imagine that the so called "leaked" balancing changes did not go live on friday because they are inefficient?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Instead of creating a bunch of fanfare about how you exploited an obvious unbalanced aspect of the game, why didn't you just message the dev's directly here on the forums or contact a GM/Dev in game? Why did you wait until you heard it was going to be nerfed? I find it a bit funny that you didn't care to 'help' fix the problem until you realized a fix would be imminent and then tried to appear as if you're going to try rectify your months of abusing this method..:rolleyes:

Take the long way around back to square one
Today we're just outlaws out on the run

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Grim Faust wrote:

Instead of creating a bunch of fanfare about how you exploited an obvious unbalanced aspect of the game, why didn't you just message the dev's directly here on the forums or contact a GM/Dev in game? Why did you wait until you heard it was going to be nerfed? I find it a bit funny that you didn't care to 'help' fix the problem until you realized a fix would be imminent and then tried to appear as if you're going to try rectify your months of abusing this method..:rolleyes:

I did not tell DEVs/you guys because:
1) It is 100% legal
2) I wanted a benefit for my investment (400k dedicated EP)
3) I wanted to BBQ a heavy with my light 1v1 in 2011 big_smile
4) Our old leadership has had a history of going to the DEVs with imbalances and it got us nowhere, everytime
5) I'm a very very bad man  yarr

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Mongolia Jones wrote:

I did not tell DEVs/you guys because:
1) It is 100% legal
2) I wanted a benefit for my investment (400k dedicated EP)
3) I wanted to BBQ a heavy with my light 1v1 in 2011 big_smile
4) Our old leadership has had a history of going to the DEVs with imbalances and it got us nowhere, everytime
5) I'm a very very bad man  yarr

Oops alt post

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Grim Faust wrote:

Instead of creating a bunch of fanfare about how you exploited an obvious unbalanced aspect of the game, why didn't you just message the dev's directly here on the forums or contact a GM/Dev in game? Why did you wait until you heard it was going to be nerfed? I find it a bit funny that you didn't care to 'help' fix the problem until you realized a fix would be imminent and then tried to appear as if you're going to try rectify your months of abusing this method..:rolleyes:

I did not tell DEVs/you guys because:
1) It is 100% legal
2) I wanted a benefit for my investment (400k dedicated EP)
3) I wanted to BBQ a heavy with my light 1v1 in 2011 big_smile
4) Our old leadership has had a history of going to the DEVs with imbalances and it got us nowhere, everytime
5) I'm a very very bad man  yarr

I tip my hat to you for making such a great build.

Now Dev's please nerf the hell out of it.

Thanks

Just Sayin
01000110 01110010 01100101 01100101 01101100 01100001 01101110 01100011 01100101 01110010 01110011
smileneutralsadbig_smileyikeswinkhmmtonguelolmadrollcoolyarr

24

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

IMO the "DEV's" need to take a breath and look at the root issue (people dont use the counter to this fit),  instead of changing bonuses to bots. How is this game ever going to be "persistent" if every tactic gets nerfed once some one reaches the critical level of EP to properly employ a specific tactic?

For the whiners:   

1. The TroiarMK2 tank is easy to counter, just get a pilot who has "dedicated ictus skill set" (high neut skills with high convergent skill) and neut the TroiarMK2
2. instituting the so called fix that was leaked will not fix the problem, you will just need more EP to do the same thing.
3. the 3% difference is not going to effect the base tactic which is this fit is "hard to hit" with medium weapons.
4. there are (from what i have tested) 4 different ways to do this tank fit and the bonus change does not touch 2/4 ways to do this fit.
5. this fit takes a LOT of EP to pull off, again this fit takes some one that has focused all (90%) of their EP into doing something really well. that is why there is very few people in the game who can even pilot this fit effectively
6. think of real ways to counter this fit ... as mentioned above ...

if people spent as much time developing "out of the box" tactics as they did whining about them this fit would be a non issue, but because people think the game should be reduced to the lowest common denominator (noobs) they whine and whine and do some more whining

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

25 (edited by Karos 2011-11-18 04:52:55)

Re: DEVS: Troiar nerf/fix

^ Just wanted to point out, an Ictus with lvl 10 electrostractic dispersion will still only be neut @ 22.86% effectiveness, from what i heard the Ictus will run dry before the troiar.

This is only what i have heard though, not experienced, i can only guess based off the numbers.