Topic: No Enemy, no game!

I have to wonder if, one of the reasons that the player base isn't increasing, and newer players don't appear to stay long is that there is no enemy in the game.

I look at all other MMO's and there are always at least 2 sides, which a player can choose to join.  In Perpetuum there are 3 factions but only one side, human.

We are all human, all spark drivers, all based on Earth. We are all on the same side.  Yes, we do have 'squabbles' over territory on Nia BUT we don't have a real threat to us.  The 3 factions are loosley American/Asian/European 'centric, but we are all doing the same thing, the same way.  If there was a fight/war between factions it would be on Earth not Nia.

I believe we need a credible enemy, that players can fight against or join with.  Without 2 sides the game just becomes an exercise in the accumulation of resources.

Having been in game since closed beta I've seen a lot of folk come and go.  The majority say they love the game when they start, good missions, nice bots, good graphics, helpful Devs and GM's, well balanced, etc etc BUT they don't stay.  Could it be that there is nothing to hold them, no-one to fight?  Once they have a grasp of combat/industry/mining what is their goal ?

Any thoughts on my views are most welcome, just don't be horrible to me big_smile

Re: No Enemy, no game!

There are plenty of enemies for people to fight, mainly being other people.
If they were NPC's they would still perform the same function, and now we still have the hostility.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

the goal ? no goal = sanbox system thats the one and only reason.

U have to make ur own goals, ur own Enemies...
U like that or not.
Its true that many people leave couz there isnt a game based goal.

I like to follow my own goals.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

If you've read a bit of the lore surrounding the game, they allude to these islands as being only the outlying portions of the central Nian empires. I have to assume, based on what I know of the game and what I've read that eventually they'll open up more islands and/or larger islands with bigger or badder enemies.

Some of the most fun I had was "liberating" Shinjalar with RG and 62nd. There were big bad pockets of some nasty NPC's outside the main terminal that once wiped out did not come back. It was a fun event, and one I'd like to see repeated in the future. Back in classic WoW, before the opening of AQ there was a server wide event to gather resources for the "invasion" of AQ. The server I was on was a very close 2nd for completion. Events such as these can and should be a part of opening up new territory, for alpha islands, anyone can contribute and should take a significant amount of resources and other objectives, that are trackable per corporation and agent.

New betas can have stockpiles that can be raided by rival factions, and/or the NPCs. Not 100%, but something along the lines of destroying a sap causes your enemies to lose ~10% of their total. All of this just for the sake of opening up (being able to physically go there) the new islands. Once there you'll have to battle npcs for control of the islands. All balanced to require team participation and cooperation.

The beauty about it is, many people can and will contribute not for tangible rewards other then the feeling of contributions of making the game progress. Depending on how detailed the devs wanted to go with it, you could even break it into teirs, unlocking specific portions of the islands defenses or teleports to be raided and controlled.


tl;dr There's already enemies, basic framework of ideas to make it us against them (and in the case of beta islands, us against them against-them-as-well) in the process of opening new territory.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Smokeyii wrote:

If you've read a bit of the lore surrounding the game, they allude to these islands as being only the outlying portions of the central Nian empires. I have to assume, based on what I know of the game and what I've read that eventually they'll open up more islands and/or larger islands with bigger or badder enemies.

Some of the most fun I had was "liberating" Shinjalar with RG and 62nd. There were big bad pockets of some nasty NPC's outside the main terminal that once wiped out did not come back. It was a fun event, and one I'd like to see repeated in the future. Back in classic WoW, before the opening of AQ there was a server wide event to gather resources for the "invasion" of AQ. The server I was on was a very close 2nd for completion. Events such as these can and should be a part of opening up new territory, for alpha islands, anyone can contribute and should take a significant amount of resources and other objectives, that are trackable per corporation and agent.

New betas can have stockpiles that can be raided by rival factions, and/or the NPCs. Not 100%, but something along the lines of destroying a sap causes your enemies to lose ~10% of their total. All of this just for the sake of opening up (being able to physically go there) the new islands. Once there you'll have to battle npcs for control of the islands. All balanced to require team participation and cooperation.

The beauty about it is, many people can and will contribute not for tangible rewards other then the feeling of contributions of making the game progress. Depending on how detailed the devs wanted to go with it, you could even break it into teirs, unlocking specific portions of the islands defenses or teleports to be raided and controlled.


tl;dr There's already enemies, basic framework of ideas to make it us against them (and in the case of beta islands, us against them against-them-as-well) in the process of opening new territory.

+1

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: No Enemy, no game!

2 sides is the worst invention in any game ever.

It's so static and boring, or like warhammer online, one side dominates and the other side quits.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Trap Card wrote:

2 sides is the worst invention in any game ever.

It's so static and boring, or like warhammer online, one side dominates and the other side quits.

+1 I play this game because I hate that static faction crap. I make my own goals, my own enemies, its a sandbox, not WoW.

+1 Smokeyii, some theme park elements like this could make things more interesting. But of course you could say the exact same thing about more sandbox elements.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

I don't really look at it as a themepark element to be honest. It's a somewhat artifical game based goal, but wether or not you take part and contribute is up to you, you can sit on your heels and wait for it or choose to contribute to speed things up. So long as there's no restriction to entering the new islands only if you contribute for X amount of points or whatever, it's still sandboxie™. Also want to make clear there'd need to be multiple ways of contributing, so that anyone and everyone can contribute (i.e you need plasma or some other drop from npcs, resources, and a production item).

Re: No Enemy, no game!

IMO dynamic events like guild wars 2 uses would fit WAY better with this game (when done right) as that still keeps the sandbox but at the same time adds more to the game.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Well I wouldn't go ahead and start comparing this game to GW2 considering GW2 isn't out yet.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Actually it'd be fun to have a raiding npc faction that raided islands at random timess. This would be announced somewhere in a chat or on server, like "The pellistals are raiding domhalarm!!", and they have good gear on them. It would be just like control points again, and give people something to go to beta for which might not take long to develop.

12 (edited by Gasoline 2011-11-08 18:17:10)

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Tabula Rasa had NPCs attack the outposts at certain times. I dont really remember if it was only for the player owned ones or not but it was extremely fun co-op kind of thing. There were basically waves of monsters that tried to get inside the base to pillage it. Outposts were big so it was possible to semi-safely enter and leave it even when under attack.

Proud member of New Eden Exiles, SQUID Alliance.

13 (edited by Triglav 2011-11-09 03:06:14)

Re: No Enemy, no game!

I'm sorry. Add NPCs to add content that was meant to be filled by players? smile)) This game needs something else to fill our ranks.


Come on smile) We know content is lacking in the game and we know devs are doing something about it. They're a small team, but tbfh for a small team, they're adding content to the world very rapidly and responding to us very fast in their own capability. Changing a game from sandboxed (tho sandboxed with sand running dry) to themeparked would take forever and another dev team responsible just for content. We don't pay the devs enough for them to be able to afford a bigger team. Ffs they're already saving money for another advertisement campaign when nov'11 patch hits (this is my own tinfoilhatting, don't ask for :proof:), so nah, no mechthemepark for you.


I say stop b1tch1ng and wait until nov 30th (at the latest), and if things don't change by then, I'll join the b1tch1n' ranks and bark with the rest of you smile Play skyrim till then tongue


T.


fakeedit: devs, b1tch is a completely legit english word. It means dogshemale. Ahm. Maybe dogfemale.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

We're not talking wow'ifying (god no) or anything like other games themepark stuff.  What I was talking about was get the players involved with game world, the community can only do so much until you trigger the interest of more.


We ARE invading the natives planet, why shouldn't or wouldn't they counter attack?
That is not themeparking the game, it is making the world more alive and real.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

"without law and order man has no freedom"  Food for thought perhaps?

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Gharl Incognito wrote:

"without law and order man has no freedom"  Food for thought perhaps?

Technically you have more freedom without.... but a lot more unfairness yarr

Re: No Enemy, no game!

adriaans wrote:
Gharl Incognito wrote:

"without law and order man has no freedom"  Food for thought perhaps?

Technically you have more freedom without.... but a lot more unfairness yarr

As William Shatner said; "Do what I do, believe in what I believe, for your own good, or I'll kill you!?! I can't get behind that!"

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

Re: No Enemy, no game!

It boggles the mind how an event such as what I described can possibly be considered making the game a themepark. Is it because it involves NPCs?

And also if you reread, the suggestion was for alpha mainly pve related, and beta pvevp related. And the suggestion was for getting the community invovled in the opening up of new territory, and once the event was completed (i.e the amount of stockpiles required for the invasion of new territory could be set to require a good month or two -- while they're completing what they're working on!) and then once the new territory is in, there's still the invasion.

I know absolutely nothing about coding or making games so I won't pretend to say "Oh, it'd be easy" because it very well might not be, but it sure would be a nice addition to the game. Think about it Triglav, how many of your own corpmates that don't log on regularly anymore would get excited about this and log on? Remember, the beta stockpiles would be attackable, so what are you going to do? Send out the masses to raid SQUID? Attack Hokk's rescources? Protect your own?


Sounds like a big bag of sand to me.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Not really sure what you're getting at, smokey. I wasn't replying to your post. From what the OP suggested (unless it's your alt) he wants a whole new (or the existing ones) faction themed NPC addition to the game that would give enough "perma" content to keep the players satisfied: i understand that as a cry for raids, quests, group missions and a wall of back story text.

What your last post is telling me is only: make the current NPCs smarter and give them some scripted stuff to do. Beyond caravans.


With above pargraphs number 1: fukcing no, not now, maybe in 3 years IF perpetuum succeeds the way EVE did in her second year after castor patch.

Paragraph number 2: hell why not. Just keep in mind, that adding some more NPC scripts will not save the game from the main problem that it has, rather create a new one: if it somehow succeeds in bringing more people to our ranks, there will be no place for scripted NPCs as the game (with its current landmass) will become overcrowded.


You see the main problem remains unsolved, it being: after having all maxed equipment; after reaching maximum in your current bot(type), after having 1,2,3....N (right M2S? tongue) outposts; what do you want to do?
It's fun being in battles, it's fun winning, it's fun losing, but WHY would you keep repeating the same old thing over and over again? I'd rather go play another game personally. I did smile
That was the main reason CIR became inactive(r) for a time and only a chance skirmish in perpetuum's player v player system brought the majority of our corp back (battle of brightstone, oct 22nd i think). We enjoyed that battle so much that most of us resubbed immediately.

In my opinion it doesnt matter what kind of NPC themes, NPC scripts or :moar: NPCs you bring into P, it won't solve the problem, and it will do nothing for current players and especially nothing for veteran players. If you did that, old players would in my opinion unsub, new players would come and leave after they have seen all the content. It will not be the game we know any more.

Ofc, there's always the possibility of devs creating some :awesome: npc content which would totally make a fool of this post, but I don't think so. We can't know that, as the devs became all hush hush sometime during the summer but their "big" goals from february or whenever haven't been realised yet. So I rather hope they're working on those before tackling any NPC content for some time.


But I however also say, that after they're finished doing revamping the pvp content (intru 2.0 and everything related), they would be better off adding npc content (lore) to the game. Hvaing NPC bots and mechs on terrain that you can interact with would be a nice fresh breeze.


tldr; i'm for pvp content first, npc content later, but for now let's see what this month brings.

20 (edited by Purgatory 2011-11-10 13:08:32)

Re: No Enemy, no game!

The crappy landmass setup is a major contributor into why the game isn't retaining players. A game such as perpetuum should have a massive playable area, of epic size. Instead we have these tiny little islands which are pigeoned off into Alpha 1, Alpha 2, Beta 1, Beta 2. A lot of people will stick to one island mostly, but by doing so they really feel how tiny the world really is.

I've said since early closed beta that the whole island setup is dumb. It's not just about the world being small, it's about the effects that the island setup has on PvP. People like the option of being able to somewhat pick their fights and have a chance of escape, but there's little chance for that with the way the world is setup.

Webs don't help either, most fights are to the death, option for escape is virtually zero. This doesn't make for fun pvp.

What the game needs is a giant landmass or two and to hell with the current island setup. Turn them into starter areas for newer players or something before they venture off into the real continent.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Purgatory wrote:

The crappy landmass setup is a major contributor into why the game isn't retaining players. A game such as perpetuum should have a massive playable area, of epic size. Instead we have these tiny little islands which are pigeoned off into Alpha 1, Alpha 2, Beta 1, Beta 2. A lot of people will stick to one island mostly, but by doing so they really feel how tiny the world really is.

I've said since early closed beta that the whole island setup is dumb. It's not just about the world being small, it's about the effects that the island setup has on PvP. People like the option of being able to somewhat pick their fights and have a chance of escape, but there's little chance for that with the way the world is setup.

Webs don't help either, most fights are to the death, option for escape is virtually zero. This doesn't make for fun pvp.

What the game needs is a giant landmass or two and to hell with the current island setup. Turn them into starter areas for newer players or something before they venture off into the real continent.

Very well summed up. I agree completely.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

22

Re: No Enemy, no game!

all that is needed is more incentives to stay and live on beta islands if you ask me. *hopes for next patch*

i had tons of fun in perp when i started crawling around on alpha islands building up the guild and my own hangar to "feel" rdy for some beta island action and to settle there within an alliance.
very much as i was looking forward to settle in 0.0 space in eve years ago when there was actual danger + reward tongue

well when i was finally there, noone was really being there like living in 0.0 space in eve. the mobs were not that good to justify the risk so noone did go out and hunt, there was no presence, no fighting and only the lonely miners where having some $$ eyes when mining semi afk in early hours only.

anyhow i feel this is missing in perp atm as beta islands are not really fought over and are hardly used constantly - as far as i can tell at least.

we don't need factions we can join but a reason for conflict to form our own factions and fight over land.

23 (edited by Celebro 2011-11-10 17:14:31)

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Purgatory wrote:

The crappy landmass setup is a major contributor into why the game isn't retaining players. A game such as perpetuum should have a massive playable area, of epic size. Instead we have these tiny little islands which are pigeoned off into Alpha 1, Alpha 2, Beta 1, Beta 2. A lot of people will stick to one island mostly, but by doing so they really feel how tiny the world really is.

I've said since early closed beta that the whole island setup is dumb. It's not just about the world being small, it's about the effects that the island setup has on PvP. People like the option of being able to somewhat pick their fights and have a chance of escape, but there's little chance for that with the way the world is setup.

Webs don't help either, most fights are to the death, option for escape is virtually zero. This doesn't make for fun pvp.

What the game needs is a giant landmass or two and to hell with the current island setup. Turn them into starter areas for newer players or something before they venture off into the real continent.

I agree, though how would you explain there was more PVP and players living in beta when there was only 6 islands?

RIP PERPETUUM

24 (edited by Edyth 2011-11-10 20:20:24)

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Game is split into two main blocks anyway, they spend 99% of their time making NIC. I fail to see how static sides would help.

Re: No Enemy, no game!

Edyth wrote:

Game is split into two main blocks anyway, they spend 99% of their time making NIC. I fail to see how static sides would help.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Since in a fight you can lose NIC-value of equipment much faster than you can harvest and produce it, it's only normal. The base game mechanics are in reality written to do just that.