Topic: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

The chameleon and intact are fragile and tackling with them requires hiding behind cover.  In addition its not practical to fit a rep on them so any damage they take stays.

The trojar is much tougher and regenerates it's effective hp.  This is fine for it's role as a neutraliser but takes the fun out of the tackling game for both sides because:
1) It's easy to charge right up to an enemy mech and demob them without taking care to avoid a volley or two.
2) The enemy has no chance of taking down the tackling trojar in a reasonable time and may as well give up when tackled by one.

If you think either of the above points is wrong please provide an example of a specific situation when it was not true (lets try to avoid the theorycraft, i am talking about what i see every day).

I am not saying "nurf the trojar as a whole".  It needs to be tougher than the chameleon and the intact to get LOS and neutralise targets BUT as it stands it's disproportionately good at tackling and holding things in place.  Imo this needs a creative solution.  One suggestion may be to give it a penalty to demobiliser energy consumption.


TLDR: Trojars need to be tough to fulfill their role as neutralisers but that makes them incredibly tough tacklers.  This needs to be addressed with some kind of rebalancing rather than a simple nurf.

Fire away smile

+1
-Confucius

2 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-21 01:36:38)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Kaldenines wrote:

The chameleon and intact are fragile and tackling with them requires hiding behind cover.  In addition its not practical to fit a rep on them so any damage they take stays.

The trojar is much tougher and regenerates it's effective hp.  This is fine for it's role as a neutraliser but takes the fun out of the tackling game for both sides because:
1) It's easy to charge right up to an enemy mech and demob them without taking care to avoid a volley or two.
2) The enemy has no chance of taking down the tackling trojar in a reasonable time and may as well give up when tackled by one.

If you think either of the above points is wrong please provide an example of a specific situation when it was not true (lets try to avoid the theorycraft, i am talking about what i see every day).

I am not saying "nurf the trojar as a whole".  It needs to be tougher than the chameleon and the intact to get LOS and neutralise targets BUT as it stands it's disproportionately good at tackling and holding things in place.  Imo this needs a creative solution.  One suggestion may be to give it a penalty to demobiliser energy consumption.


TLDR: Trojars need to be tough to fulfill their role as neutralisers but that makes them incredibly tough tacklers.  This needs to be addressed with some kind of rebalancing rather than a simple nurf.

Fire away smile

Are we talking Troiar or Troiar MK2?

Assuming we are talking about MK1:

MK1 is fairly easy to pop even after the shield changes (depending on fit), can't say a group I have run with has ever had a problem killing them. I feel you are exaggerating the difficulty of breaking a troiar mk1s shield based on my own experiences killing them (running from CIR/RG/Hydra groups running 3x troiar tackles on domhalarn is one example. We ECMd them, demobbed behind us with supperior range, and our wasps constant ranged DPS popped them quickly while we were running from them)


A couple random facts:

Troiar is the slower than a chamelon (but an Intakt should be faster than it, this is unballanced imo)
Troiar only has 2 head slots
Other bots can use ECM while tackling to avoid damage (Troiar can too, but only 1 head slot and no bonus)
Troiars can be delt with by using ECM on them / demobilizing them with supperior range if you do not wan't to kill them.
Troiar has a niche role as an effective mech tackler, the other bots do much better than it at most other things ewar related.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

3 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-21 03:58:42)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=8412

Troiar chased death and I with a mech force running for us, we killed him very quickly.

If 2 guys in t1 gear can do this very quickly, a sizeable force should make quick work of a troiar.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

4 (edited by Mark Zima 2011-10-21 12:39:57)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

+1 for troiar shield tank nerf.
Currently troiars require a disproportional amount of damage to take them down (and mk2 are even worse).


Sundial, that guy you're linking to probably doesn't have enough EP.
Also, Intakt can't reliably use ECM because of low Ew strength/high acc usage (compared to Cameleon).

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

anti shield = neut / demob

not DPS...

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6 (edited by Karos 2011-10-21 12:21:07)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Annihilator wrote:

anti shield = neut / demob

not DPS...

Have you tried neuting something with a hit dispersion of between 1.6 and 1.9m?

Electrostatic dispersion kills that idea.

The recharge bonus, which gives the troiar a 50% recharge time decrease @ lvl 10 is the main reason it can become very powerful, below 40 second rechange time with around 0.15 or lower ap/hp ratio + 1.6 to 1.9m hit size means that the requirements to take it down are unbalanced for a light ewar, in my opinion.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Don't neut small targets with big stuff, or level up a skill or two.

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8 (edited by Karos 2011-10-21 12:56:58)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Line wrote:

Don't neut small targets with big stuff, or level up a skill or two.

Small neuts have a base of 4m, with level 10 convergent electrostatics which costs 109k ep on a combat character you can only get it down to 2.8, so even with max skills you are only neuting between 57% and 68% efficiency on size.

You would still probably need at least 3 of them to take down one properly fit troiar, which is too much imo.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

You guys are complaining about mk2. Please specify this when discussing ballance.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Mark Zima wrote:

+1 for troiar shield tank nerf.
Currently troiars require a disproportional amount of damage to take them down (and mk2 are even worse).


Sundial, that guy you're linking to probably doesn't have enough EP.
Also, Intakt can't reliably use ECM because of low Ew strength/high acc usage (compared to Cameleon).

Neither did all of novas troiars either then?

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

11 (edited by Karos 2011-10-21 15:22:49)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Sundial wrote:

You guys are complaining about mk2. Please specify this when discussing ballance.

Thing is, you can't change what makes the mk2 so powerful and leave the regular troiar alone, in fact the regular troiar can do nearly the same thing, but has to decide between speed (lwf) and tank (evasive), the troiars you encountered and killed we probably doing the former and/or didn't have enough ep invested into certain extensions like basic robotics.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

CIR's tackler pilots/accounts have been dedicated blue/yellow (cameleon/intakt) pilots since we started playing the game.

Aside from CHAOS who are mainly green-corp, and MORTE/HYDRA who have a lot of new players; Novastrov has never fielded dedicated Troiar (Mk1 or Mk2) tacklers.

We did run into a Troiar Mk2 once though, it managed to crawl almost a kilometer under S-Demob effect into outpost docking-range while being focus-fired by ~10 mechs in full T4 & L10 Precision/Adv.Robotics/Adv.Faction Weapon extensions.

Since then we started running with 2-6 Ictus pilots on our roams just in case that particular /epic-facepalm doesn't happen again.

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13 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-21 15:39:37)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Karos wrote:
Sundial wrote:

You guys are complaining about mk2. Please specify this when discussing ballance.

Thing is, you can't change what makes the mk2 so powerful and leave the regular troiar alone, in fact the regular troiar can do nearly the same thing, but has to decide between speed (lwf) and tank (evasive), the troiars you encountered and killed we probably doing the former and/or didn't have enough ep invested into certain extensions like basic robotics.

So where are these semi invincible mk1 tackle troiars that I have never encountered who go fast enough to tackle? No LWF = poor tackler.

Syndic, they were from Hydra if i remember correctly.

My own experience with level 5 extensions running a troiar and T1 gear made me realize how fragile they actually are.

T4 troiars should be tanky.

In my opinion the mechanics of shields / evasive modules are flawed and should be fixed instead of troiars regen rate.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

14 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-21 15:48:32)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Can I please see a video and some numbers of a really tough troiar mk1 (LWF tackle fit)? This post is based all on experiences right now, lets see some numbers to prove your point.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

With hundreds of thousands of EP, a MK2 Troiar can be a total nightmare, but come on--a MK1?  MK1 shields aren't THAT good, and under pretty much any circumstance a Troiar is markedly slower than any Intakt/Chameleon and has laughable demobbing range compared to the other two because of extension point priorities.  And are you not sending counter tackles out?

3-400k EP MK2's I can agree need to be looked at(lets face it though, its really the fact that T4 evasive modules mixed with shields on light EWAR is a nightmare to fight AND counter-neut).  But regular factory churned Troiars, even T3-T4 MK1s aren't that hard to kill, and they certainly aren't hard to counter tackle.

Tell you what, I don't even need numbers, just give a good breakdown of a fight where a tackle fit MK1 couldn't be killed and it should probably be pretty easy to tell you what was going wrong on your end.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

the MK1 version is fine for tackling.  As one of our pilots found out last night a light and a assault can take it down with demob =P

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17 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-21 17:55:08)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Ville wrote:

the MK1 version is fine for tackling.  As one of our pilots found out last night a light and a assault can take it down with demob =P

I might also add Death and I are not specced far into basic robotics / basic weapon skills at all, as well as being T1/T2 fit.

So I think the EP argument is moot. 2 guys (in a light and assult) with beginner level robotics skills popped a beginner t1 fit mk1 troiar in about 10-15 seconds. About half way through he started to run from us lol

Troiar Mk1s are not godmode, far from it.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

18 (edited by Ville 2011-10-21 17:56:49)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Egh his stupidity for being a tackler without L demob, imo.  A lot of the QQs are for the MK2 version.  The MK2 version is highly pricey and if your willing to bring that kind of gear out in the field you deserve to reap the benefits of your Risk Vs Reward.

And for the record it was 57 seconds.  I timed it.

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

From a production view, Ewar are significantly more expensive to produce then light bots, and the MK II Cortex and CT adds another layer of expense to the upgrade. On a whole however, mature corporations shouldn't have any difficulty producing ewar MK II's in significant quantity - especially if they are as difficult to kill as is being presented; meaning prodcution could exceed loses. The cortex's are available on alpha, and most mature corps could afford to produce with 25 or 50% CT if they really had to.

No comment on MK II balance issue, but lack of availability of the MK II isn't the same as it would be if you were talking about balancing Heavy Mech MK IIs.

20 (edited by Kaldenines 2011-10-22 01:36:51)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Me and some friends killed a troiar once too...

Troiar is the slower than a chamelon (but an Intakt should be faster than it, this is unballanced imo)
Troiar only has 2 head slots

It has two head slots because it uses arm slots for it's ewar ability.

Other bots can use ECM while tackling to avoid damage (Troiar can too, but only 1 head slot and no bonus)

ECM is chance based and while it will often work it is not guranteed.  Having a nice fat, regenerating shield between you and the enemy is not something that randomly fails.  The reason this is not fun is that tackling becomes a simply question of distance and relative speeds rather than use of cover and shot timing.

Troiars can be delt with by using ECM on them / demobilizing them with supperior range if you do not wan't to kill them.

ECM can only delay the inevitable because it does not help you kill the troiar.  Both ECM and demobilizing apply to the other tacklers as well.

Troiar has a niche role as an effective mech tackler, the other bots do much better than it at most other things ewar related.

You hit the nail on the head there.  I completely agree that the Troiar is a great mech tackler, it is also great for tackling everything smaller or bigger than a mech.  The other bots are better at ECM and/or suppressing but not as good at neutralising. 

Ok if you want numbers lets have a look at the base stats:
-------------------------Cameleon---------Troiar----------Intakt
Accumulator--------------300--------------425------------300
Approx. Recharge--------2.5/s----------2.888/s*-------2.5/s
Armor---------------------550--------------600------------675
Speed---------------------70.2-------------68.4------------68.4
* Note that with basic robotic 5 this becomes 3.54 per second.

Surface hit sizes are 2.75 without evasive and 1.90 with a T2 evasive.  Thus a troiar without an evasive will on average take 45% more damage from a gun with a large dispersion than a camleon/intakt with a T2 evasive

If I understand shield ratos correctly the shield hp of the troiar will be more than x2 the accumulator capacity.
Assuming a 60% resist on the armor tanking bot, the troiar will still have more effective hp.  A possible exception is an intakt being hit by kinetic damage.  Even then I would rather fight an intakt in a kain because it could be worn down eventually even if it hides behind a tree.

The point is the stats are similar but the troiar's accumulator is part of it's hit points and it regenerates quite fast.

A cameleon chasing down a mech will take damage if it goes into the open, it can then dart back into cover and avoid further damage until it gets close but it can't keep doing that forever.  The troiar will regenerate the damage from that volley and keep going.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Sundail- cannot be, mk2 bots are not worth their production costs... at least so i have heard...

i have also heard that camelion tackle is also not fun

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Annihilator wrote:

Sundail- cannot be, mk2 bots are not worth their production costs... at least so i have heard...

i have also heard that camelion tackle is also not fun

Lemon talks about the cameleon Mk2 in the OP of that thread.  I don't want to get into the whole Mk2 topic here.

I am talking about the relative merits of Mk1 ewars as tacklers.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

@Sundial
Since you have the pelistal experience...what's your thought about the fit below..

Cheap (EP and NIC) Trojar mk1 tackle fit:

- S-demob
- L-demob
- Energy injector
- LWF

I'd like to try and see how hard it is to kill. smile

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Egil wrote:

@Sundial
Since you have the pelistal experience...what's your thought about the fit below..

Cheap (EP and NIC) Trojar mk1 tackle fit:

- S-demob
- L-demob
- Energy injector
- LWF

I'd like to try and see how hard it is to kill. smile

as its missing any form of defense (no repair, no shield, no evasive) - one volley from a gropho?

for what the injector? with average skills (lvl5) the peak recharge of the trojar is 12 AP/s, L-Demob and S-Demob together are 9 AP/s.
Take t2 equip and your faster, and also need less AP/s

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25 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-22 19:15:52)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Troiar was meant to use a shield, like the ictus (imo).

What is the point of the injector in a tackle fit? You can already run 3x small neuts stable with high enough skills. You can run both of those demobs and be cap stable.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.