Topic: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Beta is broken.  Why?  There is no reason to live there as the risk reward is to high compared to just making NIC on Alpha then using Beta to PVP or do some corporation operations that make enough profit to risk it.

This can’t continue as the drive to even posses this precious space has diminished to the point of elite players leaving the game.  This is also because there is no real end game mechanics that make one want to hold these areas.

Goal:
Turn Beta Islands into, Beta Empires.

Current:
If you “posses” a Beta island, all you really have is a terminal that says “you own me”.  No other benefits really exist unless you can get that area populated and then control some activities on the island.  But if you leave, you leave nothing, no legacy, no mark on what you have accomplished.  And why stay, nothing says….”This belongs to us, I dare you to come challenge that”.

Propose:
Let an alliance put their “face” on the Island.  When someone jumps into that Beta, they know who holds it!

How?
1.    Rewards for Beta activities.  Create a point system for NPC kills, organic material harvested, ore extracted, and artifacts removed.
2.    Points for kills vs. losses (killboard points) for the occupying alliance.
3.    Reward logged in time outside of protected areas, ie time on the ground per pilot.

What are these points for?
Customize areas of YOUR Island (at least a bit)
1.    When point levels are reached, an alliance can purchase building packages for their empire.
2.    These buildings would come in a knock down package that would need to be hauled to the approved location and erected.
3.    Have industrial Heavy mechs fitted with (new module) Assembly Modules, and as the haulers bring the items to the site, the assembly begins.
4.    These structures should vary in size and assembly time, depending on then level of the item and the amount of workers on the project.
5.    These items can not take damage.
6.    The only way a structure can be halted from building or be “conquered” is by taking control of the island, disassembling the structure, then reassembling it for your alliance.
7.    These available structures would be picked from an approved “catalog” as points and NIC are spent and the packages become available in the Beta island terminal, then construction can begin in the pre-determined locations that are made available for the structure chosen.


Why structures?
Structures would be erected for three reasons.
1.    They would give modest bonuses to a given area
2.    They are a symbol of strength that says….”yeah that’s right, we rule here!”
3.    They would stand until the next “ruling empire” removes them, putting a lasting legacy on your land.
(Any of these reasons would be enough to fight for what you have accomplished)

Historically, we can look at ancient civilizations that have put their mark of achievement on land that they ruled.  It is still impressive today to learn about these groups and see the work of their empire.  This feel would be brought into this game. (It would also create a NIC pit for alliances to sink resources into, while others spend theirs to build a military with the aim to come get what they currently have….a NIC buffer/catch-up if you will)

What type of structures?
1.    Some basic structures may be: (level 1 items)
a.    A monogram banner on a pole that can be planted along a road or at an entrance port.  This would show others the territory that they are now in.
b.    Hologram insignia of the group cast into the sky above the terminal
c.    Selected statues of bot and platforms that can be used to customize an area
2.    Some more advanced structures may be: (level 2 items)  All of these with the monogram of the alliance prominently displayed, and race color schemes chosen.
a.    Industrial tower.  This tower is visible for some distance and could give a modest 2% extraction bonus to an area of like 1000K from the structure.
b.    Ewar defense tower.  This tower could give a 3% reduction in enemy ewar strength within 1500K of the structure
c.    Sensor tower. This tower could give a 2% visibility buff to any alliance pilot within 2000K of the structure.
3.    Some advanced structures may be: (level 3 items) All of these with the monogram of the alliance prominently displayed, and race color schemes chosen.
a.    Movement detector.  NO THIS IS NOT A LOCAL WINDOW.  This unit may just register energy spikes at a port.  Not specific in any amount, mass, time, or direction, but just let you know that someone may be in the neighborhood.  (I would like to see this item have a time delay for obvious reasons…perhaps report any energy spikes every 10 min.)
b.    Trade Hub.  I would like to see a way for Alpha pilots to go to beta and interact with the Beta Empires.  This module would be deployed at an Alpha entry and be small but would not allow PVP insides a boarder of 1500K.  Buy and sell orders could be placed at this hub so Alpha and Beta pilots can come to this location for trade.  Because the PVP activity would have to be absent from this area, a non-aggression short road would have to exist.  If the trader wanders off the path…then he is now in a high risk situation.
4.    Epic structures.  (level 4 items)  Think wonders of the world here.
These items would have to be very expensive to say the least but large in scale, visibility and customized to exude the culture of the empire.
Perhaps designs could be submitted, revised, redirected, voted on, and eventually approved by the Devs.  As this item should take a good year to accomplish by an acclaimed organization, there should be time to go through this process well in advance of having the resources available to purchase and erect such a structure.

If we are to fight for Beta land, then I believe it has to possible to shape it in a way that shows ownership. To have such large goals would encourage many to be focused and work toward such a common alliance goal, keeping Beta owners on Beta Islands.  Then to defend a Beta island would not be to keep control of some invisible Epri mine, or keep others from some dying nor farm, but it would be to protect your culture, to protect your home, to protect your empire!


Tl/dr:
Create bonus for beta activities that can be turned in with NIC to acquire custom structures.  These structures would give your Beta Island your signature and make it worth fighting for.

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

The backstory makes it pretty clear that we're not here to empire build, but to extract energy to send back to earth, so any structures need to fall in line with that.  From a player's perspective, things that would make beta more 'worth it' would be a boost to defense, PVE and industry. 

I do like the idea of placing defensive structures, such as the EWAR towers/turret towers.  This would fall under the defensive boost.  The Mining boositng towers would be a nice boost for the indy guys.  The boost to PVE I thought of would be to erect a structure that collects energy to be sent back to earth.  Such a structure would attract the attention of the Nians, sending in a group of elite mechs to check it out -> build structure, get more high level NPC's.

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Good ideas, maybe except those statues and signs - they make me feel playing Pharaoh or Caesar 3 big_smile Buff Towers sounds good, and building system is fine too. However, what if they will be destructable by mobs if not players? So there will be a reason to protect them too, not only usual outpost intrusion protection. Also, I think,such buildings may need increased landmass and/or terraforming things.

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Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Or you could make Alpha less 'safe', thus making the risk on beta not that much more than on alpha..

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Games with no 'safe' zones do not appeal to a certain crowd, lets call them industrials *cough* Carebear *cough*. If Perp didn't have zones where they could operate on the Time-to-Profit model instead of the Risk-to-Reward model they'll just leave the game.

The only way to play the game would be in corporations with multiple accounts, and PVP players would spend so much time mining and manufactoring, which they find boring, the Fun-to-Grind ratio would drive all but the really hard-core out of the game too.

All that would be left are the players that are already using beta now.

-----

I agree conceptually with the OP, the details I'm not all the hot on, but sense of ownership in the game is something that will drive players to greater risk. Straight up rewards will only provide that incentive in the short term, once they have X NIC and Y bots then material rewards fail to inspire.

6 (edited by Syndic 2011-10-07 22:13:00)

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Devs please print the original post and read it again and again because it is full of pure "win".

Crispy Bacon wrote:

The backstory makes it pretty clear that we're not here to empire build, but to extract energy to send back to earth, so any structures need to fall in line with that.  From a player's perspective, things that would make beta more 'worth it' would be a boost to defense, PVE and industry. 

I do like the idea of placing defensive structures, such as the EWAR towers/turret towers.  This would fall under the defensive boost.  The Mining boositng towers would be a nice boost for the indy guys.  The boost to PVE I thought of would be to erect a structure that collects energy to be sent back to earth.  Such a structure would attract the attention of the Nians, sending in a group of elite mechs to check it out -> build structure, get more high level NPC's.

Here's a backstory: certain agents comitted harakiri on Earth and transferred their consciousness to Nia. Instead of being some uninteresting drone of some faction nobody cares about and just uses acronyms for, they're here to create their new nations, empires and island-states away from the boredom of Earth. And destroy both the native Nian population, and the Syndicate mega-corporations.

In short my point being... Nobody gives a f*** about backstory. Yea, you read it, it sounds like a fanfiction work of some obscure sci-fi novel/movie, "cool story brosefs 5/10 for effort kkthxbye lets play game! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!".

wink

@ Arga

No invunerability in EVE, works there and they have what, 80-90% of population in high-sec? lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

7 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-07 22:35:14)

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Lana Torrin wrote:

Or you could make Alpha less 'safe', thus making the risk on beta not that much more than on alpha..

WTB suicide ganking big_smile

Ok, maybe not really wink

Also Syndic I care about the backstory, it has potential to set this game appart from EVE... a unique twist if you will. You still will be able to build an empire.. and it still fits in with the lore. One corporation controlling large amounts of energy makes that corporation very powerful. They can basically hold earth hostage and wield their influence. He who controls the spice controls the universe wink. House Harkonnen, Atreides etc are the corporations. All the other corps are trying to constantly kill them at every turn sabotaging them, backstabbing them, etc. Or no one corp has power over it all, but many smaller groups.

I think the new backstory is awesome personally.

Sandbox requires imagination.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

8 (edited by Arga 2011-10-07 22:44:21)

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Wings work great on birds so putting them on cows must be a good idea. tongue

He who controls the spice controls the universe

Or so they thought, until Paul drank the water of life and said, He who can destroy a thing owns it completely.

Of course in online games, the scorpians would just come by and kick over the water of life bucket in a scorched earth policy smile

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Please understand the point of this post.  I have been in the game less than 3 months and I am standing on an Alpha island next to the best mechs in the game, fighting over the same spawn as they are farming.

What this tells me:
1. If I spend the next 6 months learning, appying my EP, getting into that awsome mech that is standing right beside me, I will be doing the same thing then as I am doing now. neutral
2. That the advanced players have nowhere to go that is worth the risk of going.
3. That the end game now is a Heavy mech and t4 gear.
4. That I can do it all in 6 months.

*Get the advanced players to the advanced areas, and do it quick. 
*You do not want me to think this game is only worth 4 months of my attention. 
*Get an advanced endgame for these guys. 
*Give them a place, and a way to sink their NIC so I can spend mine on catching up, building or acquiring military items and then, either choose to join them, or choose to fight them.
*Set up a system, and do it fast, to reward them for Beta activity.  Do it in a way that will make groups invest their time, resources, and risk it all to make a home.
*Let them build a place that impresses me sooooo much, that I dream of TAKING FROM THEM.

Right now, in 5 months, I will have done all that interests me, and this game has more potential than any MMO that I have played.  Problem is, potential is only acceptable for so long... hmm

10 (edited by Syndic 2011-10-08 12:53:46)

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Sundial wrote:

Sandbox requires imagination.

Exactly why Perpetuum is doing so badly. The Devs are lacking in the imagination department.

Recently I read an article that struck a chord, here's a small excerpt that relates to our discussion:

"It's lazy game design. It's the developers' way of saying, "Yeah you know, we don't really have anything interesting to add to this part of gameplay, so just go ahead and do whatever, because anarchy is like so hardcore." And that's not to say I'm opposed to anarchy, but rather that I resent being robbed of a massive spectrum of interesting interactions and consequences, all of which would be far more rewarding than the yes/no option of kill/don't kill. Kidnapping? Torture? Imprisonment? Trials? Fines? Bounties? Piracy? Espionage? Public executions? So very few games even bother with these elements, preferring instead to just turn us loose on each other like rabid dogs.

The designers allow us to be criminals and vigilantes, but we can't fill any of the other roles a realistic justice system would have -- police, justices, gaolers, lawyers, privateers, bounty hunters. The last-resort option of murder should be exactly that -- a last resort, rife with serious in-game consequences and dozens of strong and creative alternatives that provide roleplay experiences for all parties involved." - Massively - Sandboxes and the cop-out of FFA PvP (full article link)

All of the sandboxy possibilities we could have just on Alpha, swept under the carpet and replaced with a simple "youre invunerable here. do whatever you want, then go be a sociopath on Beta where you are not invunerable".

Like the article, Takeo's post hits the chord. It's ingenious, in many sandboxes I've played players - including myself - have yearned for those very things he puts together so lucidly. Players will do virtually insane things if it means they get to leave a lasting mark on the world.

In the last game I played (Mortal Online), on release the first 2-3 weeks of our collective game-play was log-in, park your character at a rock, watch it mining, when inventory is full trade it to the runner. The runner would run between the extractors and the miners, just trading thousands of ore back and forth. The extractor would sit on the aparatus, dragging ore and clicking the extraction process. The banker would take the processed ore, vendor it for 0.2 gold per stack, and put the money in the bank.

3 weeks of this (roughly 10 hours a day), just so we could build our keep. It didn't matter at the time that we all knew keeps were completely useless, had no function or anything else, we wanted to leave our mark on the world. The result?

5000 gold later... Prometheus Keep - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E9PFoDB0S4

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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

thank you syndic, seeing that you agree with that part that i am trying to get through since early beta:

you can shoot someone, harrass like hell - and it has no other consequences ingame aside that your possible targets get less overtime because they quit.

risk is there
reward is there
consequences are not there.

even back in beta when alpha islands have been plastered with police towers, you could simply suicide gank everywhere around alpha, with ZERO consequences aside of losing your bot and beta tester.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Oh hey...

All of what the OP has stated has been stated SEVERAL times over...

Get to it Dev's

Just Sayin
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Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Annihilator wrote:

thank you syndic, seeing that you agree with that part that i am trying to get through since early beta:

you can shoot someone, harrass like hell - and it has no other consequences ingame aside that your possible targets get less overtime because they quit.

risk is there
reward is there
consequences are not there.

even back in beta when alpha islands have been plastered with police towers, you could simply suicide gank everywhere around alpha, with ZERO consequences aside of losing your bot and beta tester.

what's the consequence in a virtual world where you cannot lose anything ? hence there is no effective punishment for crimes. you cannot take away peoples EP because that directly translates into the money they paid for the game. any other property is simply virtual. if you grief the to no end, the will quit.

this is exactly the point why no bounty hunting profession exists in EVE. there is simply no effective way to implement it.

I have several game concepts in my head with all of what was mentioned, but there is always the problem of enforcing the contracts that would be needed for the interesting profesions. there simply are no ways to do it unless you go RP heavy or even RP compulsory in the game.

think about it. those concepts are fine, but they do not work in virtual worlds. that's why we always get simple yes/no options.

Re: Beta Islands or Beta Empires?

Syndic wrote:
Sundial wrote:

Sandbox requires imagination.

Exactly why Perpetuum is doing so badly. The Devs are lacking in the imagination department.

Recently I read an article that struck a chord, here's a small excerpt that relates to our discussion:

"It's lazy game design. It's the developers' way of saying, "Yeah you know, we don't really have anything interesting to add to this part of gameplay, so just go ahead and do whatever, because anarchy is like so hardcore." And that's not to say I'm opposed to anarchy, but rather that I resent being robbed of a massive spectrum of interesting interactions and consequences, all of which would be far more rewarding than the yes/no option of kill/don't kill. Kidnapping? Torture? Imprisonment? Trials? Fines? Bounties? Piracy? Espionage? Public executions? So very few games even bother with these elements, preferring instead to just turn us loose on each other like rabid dogs.

The designers allow us to be criminals and vigilantes, but we can't fill any of the other roles a realistic justice system would have -- police, justices, gaolers, lawyers, privateers, bounty hunters. The last-resort option of murder should be exactly that -- a last resort, rife with serious in-game consequences and dozens of strong and creative alternatives that provide roleplay experiences for all parties involved." - Massively - Sandboxes and the cop-out of FFA PvP (full article link)

All of the sandboxy possibilities we could have just on Alpha, swept under the carpet and replaced with a simple "youre invunerable here. do whatever you want, then go be a sociopath on Beta where you are not invunerable".

Like the article, Takeo's post hits the chord. It's ingenious, in many sandboxes I've played players - including myself - have yearned for those very things he puts together so lucidly. Players will do virtually insane things if it means they get to leave a lasting mark on the world.

In the last game I played (Mortal Online), on release the first 2-3 weeks of our collective game-play was log-in, park your character at a rock, watch it mining, when inventory is full trade it to the runner. The runner would run between the extractors and the miners, just trading thousands of ore back and forth. The extractor would sit on the aparatus, dragging ore and clicking the extraction process. The banker would take the processed ore, vendor it for 0.2 gold per stack, and put the money in the bank.

3 weeks of this (roughly 10 hours a day), just so we could build our keep. It didn't matter at the time that we all knew keeps were completely useless, had no function or anything else, we wanted to leave our mark on the world. The result?

5000 gold later... Prometheus Keep - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E9PFoDB0S4

I do agree on the POS part. I do not agree on the profesions part.