Topic: Knowledge base / Prototyping

  • gaining knowledge is semi random

  • gaining knowledge is an epic grind or epic exploit

  • gaining knowledge is getting harder with each patch that brings either new equip, or changes npc spawns

  • knowledge base is static (once you have it, you never lose it)

  • knowledge base is  not limited (you can know everything on one agent - you need to because of #1)

  • tech knowledge is linear, higher is always better

  • tech progression is unlogical?

so i made this topic to gather ideas how to improve the above points.
please be constructive and on topic, thanks.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Your key point here is that completing the tech tree is getting more difficult to accomplish with each patch.

Based on that, we have to assume that getting tech is something the devs want to be difficult; or something that they want to be fairly rare.

So, when you say improve, do you mean make it easier/faster to get tech?

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

I would like it to be more plannable and sharable on a corp level.

Maybe something like you have 100 arbiter assault kernels and want to research those. Instead of giving you random knowledge (like atm) you get to choose which kind of equipment you want to research. Lets assume arbiter assault kernels are worth 100 points of research and you only gain those 100 points on the selected field.

The current system is very very unfriendly to new(er) users as there is no way around it.
Maybe something like the possibility to take 10 kernels + a t3 item to "invent" a t4 item (or ct) at a given chance % would make higher tech available to users that didn´t grind 10000 kernels.

This would also be a workaround to the current prototypers belonging to the big corps that dont sell anything of their tech on the open market, which would also mean an increase of high-tech items available on the player driven market.

The ones saying "impossible" shall not disturb the ones already doing it

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Research is rather a linear process and semi random as the op mentions. At least some level of control for players to specialise in a certain area would be very welcome, same way as you would specialise on your extensions. This has the drawback of researching too fast which would further need a reduction in kernel drops, another way would  be to mix research with EP Where you would need some skill like have a subset of different extensions e.g "industrial modules research specialisation" where research would speed up research in that particular area only.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Personaly I would prefer to be able to semi specialize if not specialize.

What I would like is for tech to be linked closer to the color and lvl of the kernel you eat. IE if i eat only green kernels I will only recieve tech for their modules. Also higher lvl kernels would give you progression on higher teir item, and lower tier items at the same time. IE eating a green obs kernel gives you a small amount of progression on a t4 item, more on the t3 etc etc.

Something like this could let you semi specialize while not being able to get too specialized

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Improved research system sounds good. That can be kernels research gives you some amount of "progression points" that you can spend wherever you want to, or limited by class and color of kernels. Or you can organise some kind of research queue where you place techs you want to research in some order, and researching kernels gives an advantage in that accordingly theyr class and color aswell - these which fits more for that tech, gives more advantage etc.

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Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Research is all or nothing, having 90% of T4 completed has no benifits. Being able to choose an area, say engineering, to complete befor starting other areas would be good.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

+1 to any of the above mentioned ideas to allow me to direct how my research is learned.

9 (edited by Alexadar 2011-09-28 11:34:48)

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Edit: i wrote BS
Leave the current system how it is. You can provoke new wave of unsubbing and flaming.

10 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-09-28 11:08:11)

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

A few of my personal thoughts, having done a long part of the epic grind and dumped many billion NIC into it:

  • Sharing in corp: Either no, or doing so should require significantly more kernels as more people are able to access it. Currently, if you want to give research to one person, fine, but you take a risk if he leaves. Furthermore, you are always restricted to his limitations in prototyping (number of slots and efficiency). If it was plain sharing, are you suggesting that everyone in corp (or the ones with enough access level, for me equivalent, as you can set everyone to get it) should be able to prototype based on the corps research?

  • Specialisation in research: I agree to some extent, but I there's one thing that's disturbing me on this point. I have a feeling a lot of people will just get a few key areas and then just skip the rest (Weapons and Engineering), also taking into account that Green kernels only give green weapon research, getting T4 med weapons would all of a sudden be insanely easy. In essence, allowing specialisation is interesting, but also allows people to ignore a lot of 'useless' research items, hence essentially making the grind much, much, much shorter.

  • Semi-random: This is probably one of the key problems with the current system, it works reasonably okay with standard kernels, but with observer kernels it's completely skewed. If you have 40 observer kernels, you can get insanely lucky and get most of the research for that colour (medium T4 research that is), or you may get virtually not a single point. In short, observer kernels should work more as a bundle of standard kernels and give several rolls on different items, so that the total research they give is still the same, just less random.

  • Invention system: A good idea, which I support, though of course the CT quality should be insanely bad. For me this would be more of a system if you really don't have the research, don't know anyone and market if hugely overpriced. It is not a system where you mass produce regularly. To give you an idea, in order to balance this I think the CT quality has to be approx 10-15%.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

In my opinion players created many dedicated accounts for prototyping. If you want this prototypers carebear for research one more time: this prototyper will be useless. Why? Because whole corp worked for few dedicated accounts, and worked really much. And now you want to put corporations into situation when they must work for research what will erase itself after some time/ct creation?

All fine with curent system: after prototyper gained knowlege he need huge ammount of mats to make this prototype. All research depends of kernels you using, and people fine with it: want a best tech - do farming. Gained desired tech: now you can sink mats to make proto.

Now its too late to make a brand new experiment with core functionality. This changes should happened during beta-test, not after game release.

Im highly sure that current prototypers will drop playing if devs will implement sort of "erasing of KB". Prototypers now had a problem to get a mats for prototypes, and you proposing to add new butthurt for kernels.

New "experiments": new unsubbing wave.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Chastener wrote:

In my opinion ... New "experiments": new unsubbing wave.

I guess we will see your changed mind once you got left alone by your dedicated prototyper...

The ones saying "impossible" shall not disturb the ones already doing it

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

At the moment marked are not filled by prototype orders. Its very important moment what should be attached to this discussion. Ability to sell or buy a prototype from marked is tying prototype to the NIC currency. Given that the market has not developed yet i can make a conclusion that noone now can realize what changes should be made for research system.
Also any change, what was proposed will made nothing to kernel flow.

Static knowledge base (research will be allways with you, no matter of its usage), it is suiting this game perfectly: Average New corporation should spend half of year to gain full tech tree. If game will be expanded, this time will be increased. After new tech researched, corporation needs *** of resources to create high tiered items. Researched tech tree is a hole for a big nic sink. Randomized research good for nic sink because you need more kernels. Unlimited KB size is a good start for huge nic sink. Linearity of research is a nic sink too: you work hard for 100% result. And then this result will cause a nic sink.
What can be changed?
Add specialization? You can specialize now, researching different colors of kernels.
Add specialization to types of equipment? Why? If you can research desired equipment with a bunch of kernels (nic sink). Maybe its better to change research speed big_smile
Change observer's kernels mechanics? Why? Observer kernels designed to finalize t4 research, what needs huge amount of normal kernels. Those corp who can farm observers in enough quantity can boost the hardest t3->t4 research, after a hard work to equip your warriors. Risk-vs-reward.
Make "dynamic" kb with research what erase itself after usage (like prototypes)? It will change nothing, it only shift nic sink to other branch of game. Kernels will be allways on a market, you can see it even now. No matter how many dedicated prototypers are in corp.

Good nic sink = more time online = larger game.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

You are already able to "semi-specialize" by eating Kernels of a certain type and color. For obvious reasons, a T5 Light Kernel doesn't have the same tech-tree as a T5 Heavy Mech Kernel.

1 thing that needs to be added is industrial observers or equivalent, because the grind we went through for the miners/harvesters is full-blooded korean grindfest. Rest is easy-mode.

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Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Ok here is my view on the issue. During the last months, many changes were made that did indeed change the kernel flow. The droprate was reduced some time ago and with the recent changes to NPC-Spawns farming the required kernels is a lot harder or nearly impossible(High-end indu kernels for example). This means a new Corp right now has to farm about 10 times more(this is a wild guess) to be on the same tech-level as someone who farmed a few months ago. This is a very huge and dare i say unfair advantage for veteran players and Corps.

Also this system is not well balanced as it promotes large corps. They will get the farming done faster while small corps may never be able to get all the kernels. Also if a prototyper stops to play it would not take as long for a large corp to replace him...maybe they even have stockpiles of kernels.

The system itself also discourages kernel trade as it is always a good idea for a corp to have them in stock.

I think a solution could be to improve reverse engineering. You would have a choice to either do it the traditional way, so build a prototype end RE it. The new way would be to just take the item you want a CT of, add the decoder and after that some fitting kernels(or something else...robot parts, minerals you name it). The more kernels you use the better the CT will be. In the long run, the prototype method would be cheaper, but if you only want to create some item for yourself the extra costs for the kernels might not be as bad as buying the item from someone who just made 300% profit because he is the only one selling it.

This way new players can directly start to manufacture high-end items if they got enough materials to start the process and a constant stream of kernels afterwards.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

The only significant problem with knowledge base mecnahic is it's dependence on one character.
Lots of clearly defined specialization paths (with minimal overlap) may improve this, but honestly, any other solution to the above problem is welcome.

Also, the past observer farming as a T4 fast track for some corps bugs me a little.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

It's find the way it is. It could show a little more information on what each kernels COULD give but the system should not be changed.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

As a new player who missed out on the Observer farming on Beta and increased kernel drop rates before my time I say .... leave it the way it is. As mentioned .. you have general specialization with rank and colour of kernel giving you a base idea of the research you will get.  This should not be simple, it should require a huge NiC or gameplay effort to increase your knowledge base. The advantage of older corps is what it is.  I am a solo player ... to gather the higher level rarer kernels, I have 2 options .... find/kill for them, or buy them.  This encourages me to play nice with others to get those kernels quicker ... nothing wrong with that.  If a corp works together, they will get kernels and knowledge faster... makes sense.

Other than possible minor tweaks/balancing I think its a decent, workable system.

The only possible suggestion is in regards to corp research when the corp researcher leaves he takes his knowledge with him ...

... perhaps "x" numbers of kernels can be invested in to a new type of POS structure that adds a value to research in the owner corp ... say build a "Research Center" and throw (consume) 1000 Green lvl 4 Mech Kernels into it and any corp researcher working inside the POS radius gets an additional 10% bonus to his personal knowledge base for what those kernels would normally give him .... making some items 100% for him and prototypeable .... guy leaves and he loses that bonus.  Think of it operating somewhat in the way that different levels of facilities operate now. And cap the modifier bonus at something like 10-15%.  This way both corps have a "research pool" they keep and individuals still have their own.  And both still need to consume kernels keeping it a commodity.

I just dont want things to be made easy in the game ... there is something to feel good about investing 4-6 months into and achieving a result rather than simply having it handed to you.  My research/indy toon is already starting some research on some t3 items after 3 months ... this seems about the right grind for me, and is refocusing some of my gameplay on aquiring kernels I need to get the research I want.  If it take a year - 18 months to pretty much have all research that is fine.

Tweak it maybe, but dont change the base system of research.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Agreeing with Annihilator. NPC nerfs are making research progresively more dificult.

Also why are no prototypes sold on the market ? Anyway semi-specialisation would be good.

F.e. laser weapons and similar class based specialisation. You still have to go through the tiers to reach t4, but now you don't need to waste time and NIC on thins you don't want to.

1. it won't enable to get the complete tech tree any faster, just you can select what goes first.
2. specialising enables to get into higher tier production faster thus more competition on the market

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

@Cassius: I can understand your point of view as a solo player to have something to shoot for, however it gets more complicated when you try to be competitive as a corp and want to live on beta. To have a real chance to win a serious battle you not only need the manpower, but also the tech. You will loose stuff and must replace it regularly. The only way to do that is to prototype by yourself, buying items is far too expensive and also there is not enough supply.

Right now if you start as a new Corp with 20 active players you would need ages(literally) to get to the point where you can sustain yourself without help from outside.  Back when every Bot dropped a kernel the system was ok. After that, it was harder, but still doable.

21 (edited by ZUBO 2011-09-29 09:53:36)

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

@Cassius: I can understand your point of view as a solo player to have something to shoot for, however it gets more complicated when you try to be competitive as a corp and want to live on beta. To have a real chance to win a serious battle you not only need the manpower, but also the tech. You will loose stuff and must replace it regularly. The only way to do that is to prototype by yourself, buying items is far too expensive and also there is not enough supply.

Right now if you start as a new Corp with 20 active players you would need ages(literally) to get to the point where you can sustain yourself without help from outside. So the only way right now is to join in with veteran players that will help you. It is extremely hard to start something new, much harder than it was a few months ago.

Back when every Bot dropped a kernel the system was ok. After that, it was harder, but still doable. Right now you have to farm much longer to get the kernels you want and higher level indu-kernels are now not farmable at all any more as random spawns do not spawn indu mechs any longer(well they do but only once per day as it seems). So you cant even get proper mining equipment.

Also farming kernels, even with random spawns gets really boring after some time. There should be more ways to gather kernels...maybe let players drop some when they die in PvP?

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Most issues boil down to the market. It's true in this case too. If this is, as you say, a problem for corporations trying to compete on beta, where are their buy orders? If this system was so heavily exploited, where are the sell orders?

Rethink your argumentation, it's like Swiss cheese (yum!) now.

23 (edited by ZUBO 2011-09-29 11:12:39)

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Doek wrote:

Most issues boil down to the market. It's true in this case too. If this is, as you say, a problem for corporations trying to compete on beta, where are their buy orders? If this system was so heavily exploited, where are the sell orders?

Rethink your argumentation, it's like Swiss cheese (yum!) now.

Well as soon as you got all kernels you need you will stop this stupid grind, wont you? Maybe occasinally kill some bots for the fun of it. So there are no kernels to sell. Instead you will go mining to produce items. You will also only mine as much as you need so you wont sell the items on the market, because at this point you have no use for any nic you might earn.

And Corps do buy kernels...but there are not nearly enough sold, or are sold for insane prices. And how do you get the money to buy kernels these days? Right farm some more NPCs as missions are even worse. And there are also other running costs you have to pay for so the NIC earned while farming kernels is actually needed elsewhere.

Still even if you could buy all the kernels...where do indu kernels come from? And how expensive would they be if someone really did sell them?

I tell you the recent NPC changes really hurt the current system.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Hugh Ruka wrote:

Also why are no prototypes sold on the market ? Anyway semi-specialisation would be good.

Its obvious: best prototypers are now in powerblocks.
Powerblocks are self-sufficient.
Ore fields available for all in enough quantity.

But..
When player community will consist of +-few thousand of active players,
When ore will be not available for all,
When dedicated miners for specific ore will be more valuable,
When some corporations will specialize on mining of certain type of resources,
When war for epriton fields will be not a joke,
When market will have stable influx of kernels,
Then market will be full of prototype orders.

Please don't touch production system, because you not realize that much of proposed changes could simply break whole macroeconomics when server will be full of players.

25 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-09-29 12:03:15)

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Hugh - prototypes are not sold on market because the people having the research do not want to flood the market with the items after having invested billions on NIC. If I sold you a prototype, you start manufacture and sell on the market. You start becoming my competitor and drag down prices a lot. You might think I'm overreacting, but with a single prototype you can make at least 100 of an item. For me to be willing to sell this prototype to you, I should account for all the sales you are taking fro me, which will lead to an insanely high price. Furthermore, even if I'd be willing to sell the prototype, why would I do it through the market? That way I have no way of controlling who gets hold of the valuable commodity.

TL;DR - High-end prototypes are unlikely to be seen on the market (unless the research becomes very common, but then it's not high-end)