The challenge for mining should not be combat based, not everything in the game needs risk vs reward, indy should be balanced with time vs reward.

That said, and I've made this clear before and I agree with Scyylla, there has to be a certain level of risk everytime you undock.

In the case of mining however, the reward of mining (alph mining) does not need to be balanced to the risks associated with PVE combat; that's too extreme.

The risk level for mining should be to prevent 'unattended' mining. A character that chooses to specialize in (alpha) mining shouldn't have to also fit for combat/defense. The example of putting a sheild on a miner is a perfect example. Ignoring the skill cost for the moment, the CPU requirements are right on the edge for fitting a riveler with lasers, tuninings, and acc rechargers. The sheild requires more than just a minor loss of yeild, as a shield only prevents bumps and scrapes without hardners. Because of CPU and Hardners, your talking about removing all Indy tuners.

I always like to turn these type of suggestions around, so we can view it from all points. Shield provide no value to a miner's main purpose, which is to increase ore/hour. If there was a change that required combat pilots to swap all thier weapon tuners out for indy tuners, would that be acceptable? As a combat pilot myself, I know that I would think that was a bad idea.

The only real defense miners have is to get out of harms way, or as Robo points out, to mine where there is no danger. Fully fitted Rivelers Nav 10 with t4 LWF move 67 Kph, and about -10 kph demobbed *s*. They simply can't escape without adequate time. And even with a sheild and hardners, the SO could demob and kill a riveler without suffcient warning.

Please note that all this applys only to alpha mining.

Some risk is acceptable, but mining is not a combat related activity, so does not need to be balanced with the reward. It takes time to mine, that is the investment for reward.

I am glad that we agree that every time you undock risk should be involved however if random spawns don't target and attack miners when they stumble on them where is the risk? There should be a threat of being sent back to the station in a violent manner every time you undock not just when you are afk.

Currently miners do have the choice to fit a tank or fit for maximum yield. Just like a PVE bot has to fit based on the spawn they are going to kill. Many times this will involve removing tunings to add range. It may also involve removing rechargers or stabs for tank. Every situation is different but the PVE toon still has to choose between gimping range, speed, damage, recharge or tank. The PVE toon doesn't get the option to be able to do it all on their bot. By your example, removing the tunings on a bot to increase the range would reduce the efficiency of killing your spawn quickly and reduce the amount of your rewards. PVE bots have to make that choice all the time.

Miners (I am one of them) do invest time to mine their rewards however don't discount the time you and all the other PVE toons invest in farming spawns, scanning sites or running missions. Each of those actives has the risk of having your bot violenced and mining should have the same consequences in my opinion. 

Think about this one for a second:

Fit your PVE bot to infini-tank a spawn and just sit there.... Does your cargo fill up with modules, plasma and kernels?  Where is the reward for the time you spent sitting infini-tanking a spawn?

That is part of the problem with a time vs reward system. You can spend time doing any number of things and get no reward. Also, it seems that the devs in their infinite wisdom may have already done a time vs reward system. We now have isotopes that you can only get by mining. I know they nerfed the refining of mods and put this in it's place but it does make an excellent reward. Mine titan or Liquidzit and get EPI. The more time you invest in mining the more isotopes you will have!

Do I think that everytime you turn on a mining laser that a spawn should appear with bad intentions? No I don't. Random spawns causing the occassional wtfbbqpwnage of an indy bot is an acceptable consequence to undocking. It will discourage afk mining and encourage miners to be a bit more vigilant of their surroundings. We are on a hostile world aren't we?

Industry players simply have a lower threshold of risk. I've pointed this out in previous posts. You simply can't apply the same risk vs. reward equation to mining as you would to combat.

The crux of the matter is simply that while your in a combat bot, your choosing to put your equipment directly at risk, and your in direct control of the level of risk. If you over-extend combat bots have a greater capability to escape, but more than that they 'choose' thier battles.

Miners only viable defense has always been to simply run. The only balance i'm asking for is to ensure that miners are given ample opportunity to run.

Grim, my miner's cargo takes about 4 minutes to fill up, so it basically has the same effect of overheating and shutting down if I leave the keyboard for any length of time.

Evil macros

Part of the idea is adding risk to reduce afk, but its also about that small but consistent chance of danger. That is one of the elements that makes Minecraft so engrossing, the creepers don't come by that often during the day, but there's always that chance so you have to keep an eye out. If your out at night or in a cave you 'expect' to have to deal with much more danger, but you don't have to worry about that same level continually.

Having that little bit of spice, without too much heartburn , is the balance challenge.

Indy players do have a lower threshold of risk however the risk should still be present. I have yet to be forced to abandoned a can of ore. I have yet to have an observer of any breed spawn on top of me. I have yet to have a wandering hauler spawn appear on my radar while mining. At this point the only risk I am being exposed to is if I have a derp moment and pilot into a spawn....

When anyone undocks they choose to put their bot at risk regardless of whether they are an indy toon or combat toon. The levels of risk are very different based on the choices of the individuals activety. A combat pilot will always be exposed to more risk. It is the nature of combat. I think it is more then acceptable  to expose indy bots to the occassional violent interaction should they not pay attention to their surroundings.

It seems that the focus is on the ability of the slowest indy bot to get away from the fastest and one of the rarest npc spawns. Why not look at existing mechanics to find a solution to the problem:

MK2 bots----higher speeds when fit then a standard bot
T2 gear----generally a lighter weight which will increase speed
Nexus mods---- speed nexus ftw
Leave a fitting slot open
etc.....

It boils down to choices. If a miner is so worried about losing his bot to an extremely rare but fast npc spawn then the miner should fit his bot accordingly. I am personally worried about losing my mech to ewar spawns so when I choose to kill them I fit for range and gimp my damage a bit. It's all about finding a way to make it work and being willing to accept the consequences of doing it.

The way it is now you can't out run the fastest/rarest spawns in the slowest bot AND be the most efficient/highest yielding miner. You have to choose. Is your reward survival in the rare case of actually having one of these SO's appear on you or is your reward pillaging the most materials everytime you mine/harvest?

A few days ago a kain SO paid me a visit whilst I was mining in alpha with riveler mk2/lithus, I was not afk. Kain went straight to me. I kept still, he was moving so fast I had no chance of escape even with a speed of 62kph. Keeping still most surely saved my miner/hauler. The risk is too high if he was able to target me.

The problem is if they change this 'bug' there would be no other option but to runaway, and probably lose my most expensive bot with T3 fittings. I agree there should be risks but I would like more options than just run away or maybe a hell of a tank that would gimp my yield so much it would probably be better to mine on a termis with no tank as I would not mind losing it. This is probably the 5th time a get a visit from an observer whilst mining.

Caravans are indeed no problem at all to get outta the way of.  They slowly creep along and give plenty of time to escape before entering aggro range.  I would not have a problem with them if they aggro'd anything that let them get close enough.

I would still like to see field container timers increased first especially because the caravans are SO slow.

Arga is right about the SO on Tellesis.  Not only is it everywhere, there are at least 2 of them and possibly a GO that roam separately.  I've seen both SOs walk by me at the same time going opposite directions.  Buffed up like they are right now, even spotting it at max range I really do not wanna bet my Riveler that I can get away from it in time.

I had a close encounter whit an SO on tellesis, we even gave him a nickname in our corp. That beast makes 11 minutes rounds around the island so setting up a timer can somewhat predict that he is comming. But we did loose a 50mill to him recently.
Its not fun to loose 50 mill in robots when you had no time to react and runaway. Its too hard and too repressive... change it somehow.

Look at this Annihilator. Living proof of my words. This person is trying to challenge any of my opinions. Just out of principle.

ololo...