Re: Remove the Navigation skill

the solution is simple. there's no combat effectivnes lost with higher NAV. there needs to be a blancing act somwhere ...

basicaly Nav should work to speed up the bot for TRAVEL. Once you deploy ANY modules that need a target, Nav has to have a negative effect. Since we do not have a tracking equivalent mechanic in this game, the speed slider in the UI means NOTHING. Thus NAV 10 is a requirement for all speed related mechanics.

Take the LWF:

Introduce a max loadout for each bot. If you mount modules that are heavier than your max loadout, you lose speed much faster and your slope capability is reduced. An LWF reduces the max loadout so in turn limits your fitting options.

Anybody noticed that BOTs in cargo do not contribute to the speed limiting mass ? It's crazy. I can fit an arkhe into my waspish and there is no speed loss.

Finaly NAV should increase tracking/guidance failuers when over a threshold. This will work together with hit size and create a balancing mechanic that limits effective PvP/PvE speed when you want to retain weapon accuracy at a reasonable level.

Industrialists won't care, they just need to run as fast as possible, thus nav 10 is still good for them. PvE/PvPers have to check their effective speed limits and train Nav to an effective level for their mech size.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Hugh Ruka wrote:

Industrialists won't care, they just need to run as fast as possible, thus nav 10 is still good for them. PvE/PvPers have to check their effective speed limits and train Nav to an effective level for their mech size.

One problem with that then you'd need to be able to have nav extension adjustable cause you change mech sizes and all of a sudden you have to much nav? How can you make that work unless the extention can be changed at will.

Now the tracking idea a good one. But this will then make Missile guidance or Percision Firing 10 a must have skill with nav 10. And that isn't no 1x skill like Nav is or you would have to introduce a new extension to semi counteract it which would become another must have at 10 asap.

Line wrote:

Careful here, there is alots of skills which are should be raised to %level_number% as a RULE. Why can't we then just start with basic robotics at 4 on al chars? or combat skills at 5 on combats?

There are and if you remove Nav from the picture completely then you'll find another extension turn into the must have 10. I know a few that I've found from changing pvp fits around that really could turn into must have skills at 10. Just ppl don't put emphasis on them as much but that would probably change when you get rid of Nav.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

suDndEth wrote:
Hugh Ruka wrote:

Industrialists won't care, they just need to run as fast as possible, thus nav 10 is still good for them. PvE/PvPers have to check their effective speed limits and train Nav to an effective level for their mech size.

One problem with that then you'd need to be able to have nav extension adjustable cause you change mech sizes and all of a sudden you have to much nav? How can you make that work unless the extention can be changed at will.

Now the tracking idea a good one. But this will then make Missile guidance or Percision Firing 10 a must have skill with nav 10. And that isn't no 1x skill like Nav is or you would have to introduce a new extension to semi counteract it which would become another must have at 10 asap.

Line wrote:

Careful here, there is alots of skills which are should be raised to %level_number% as a RULE. Why can't we then just start with basic robotics at 4 on al chars? or combat skills at 5 on combats?

There are and if you remove Nav from the picture completely then you'll find another extension turn into the must have 10. I know a few that I've found from changing pvp fits around that really could turn into must have skills at 10. Just ppl don't put emphasis on them as much but that would probably change when you get rid of Nav.

you can adjust your speed ingame, you know that ?

the blue bar to the left of your speed display. it just has no point atm except avoiding warping when too fast.

I don't pretend my suggestion is perfect. I am well aware about the flaw you picked. But there should be bot classes were navigation does not mean much or little to their effectiveness.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

suDndEth wrote:
Line wrote:

Careful here, there is alots of skills which are should be raised to %level_number% as a RULE. Why can't we then just start with basic robotics at 4 on al chars? or combat skills at 5 on combats?

There are and if you remove Nav from the picture completely then you'll find another extension turn into the must have 10. I know a few that I've found from changing pvp fits around that really could turn into must have skills at 10. Just ppl don't put emphasis on them as much but that would probably change when you get rid of Nav.

Then they are not must, are good or relevant or important, no same.
No need to have a penalization in Nav, u alrrdy have penalty with lwf & extensions dont have a penalty, why should nav?.

Do not enter endless tweaks pls, if nav its broken remove it (again, or give everybody enough ep at the start to rise it), if not leave it that way as there are plenty of more urgent things.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Nat, everyone starts with enough ep to max it from day one...

the most important thing why "Nav10 is a must have" for almost all agents is: without it the game feels like Snail-online for a new player.

the base robot speed is balanced around fastest empty robot with best lwf, lvl10 nav + speed nexus +  highwaybonus < xxx kph (i think 160 kph is the top speed server can handle without "jumping")

this means, you have to start with rather small numbers, which will be even smaller with equipment added.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Nat4raya wrote:

Then they are not must, are good or relevant or important, no same.
No need to have a penalization in Nav, u alrrdy have penalty with lwf & extensions dont have a penalty, why should nav?.

Do not enter endless tweaks pls, if nav its broken remove it (again, or give everybody enough ep at the start to rise it), if not leave it that way as there are plenty of more urgent things.

Nav 10 isn't a must either but ppl say it is. Cause us as the players put the importance on it. I for one went most of the 1 month playing without Nav 10 and found no problems. I started with 7 I think. Then slowly got it to 10 as other things came into focus. Had it at 9 by the time i started PvPing then finished it off after.

I have corp mates that have been playing just about the same length of time as me and still don't have Nav 10. Few have 9 some have 8 cause they just cant justify the importance of spending that much EP there when they can raise other things.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Nat4raya wrote:
suDndEth wrote:
Line wrote:

Careful here, there is alots of skills which are should be raised to %level_number% as a RULE. Why can't we then just start with basic robotics at 4 on al chars? or combat skills at 5 on combats?

There are and if you remove Nav from the picture completely then you'll find another extension turn into the must have 10. I know a few that I've found from changing pvp fits around that really could turn into must have skills at 10. Just ppl don't put emphasis on them as much but that would probably change when you get rid of Nav.

Then they are not must, are good or relevant or important, no same.
No need to have a penalization in Nav, u alrrdy have penalty with lwf & extensions dont have a penalty, why should nav?.

Do not enter endless tweaks pls, if nav its broken remove it (again, or give everybody enough ep at the start to rise it), if not leave it that way as there are plenty of more urgent things.

Nothing is more urgent than helping new players and removing fluff/annoyances from the game.

New content is equally important but not more or less.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Since we are not able to agree in the useless of navigation extension i doubt this subject can be called urgent. I certanlly agree helping newplayers its primordial, requesting them to invest their first k´s of ep in a single extension does not seem a warm welcome.
Another option might be to give combat characters (those who choosed combat atributes) some lvl´s in navigation as startup.
Many players surelly have stayed at lvl 9 or 8 in nav untill they have felt was the good moment, what i doubt its that any player deployed (no market alts) does not rises to lvl 5 asap, it makes it a must then hence broken imo.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Annihilator wrote:

but the math regarding speed nexus, lwf and highway bonus would not change with that.

Highway bonus is already a flat 36kph increase. Could always turn nexus and LWF effects into flat bonuses, too. LWF wouldn't need is as much, since it works into the weight maths. So work out a modded base speed from the standard base speed, equipment weight, and LWF. Then add to that the flat increases for Nav, NEXUS, and highways.

On the broader topic, I still think the problem is that Nav is either way too cheap or way too powerful. So either the amount of speed increase needs to be reduced so it's good to have (but not essential), or the EP cost should increase so there are plenty of other extensions more worth training before pushing Nav to 10.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Base speed should all be very similar (Motor output levels but weights effect speed more)

Gear should be where speed difference comes from (Vary weight).

Bonuses should be more gear based (To limit lightest gear being over used)

Speed Nexus should be a percentage. (Break gang up a little?)

Highways should be a static 36KPH and renamed to something that doesn't require lots of silly looking buildings and just a different tile texture for "Smooth Terrain" allowing robots to move across it faster. (Optional but I prefer it to magnetic fields)

Speed should have a limit based on weight so that smaller faster things get less speed bonus than larger robots.

Remove any bonus damage against larger targets from smaller weapons (Unless already done).

Rebalance tanking so that it is always a short but powerful repair that needs to be maintained rather than just run all the time. Powerful tank but short lived so it can be overpowered without more numbers always being required.

Rebalance ewar to be very effective when using an ewar robot but very poor when not using an ewar robot (Currently very easy for 30 people to fit an ECM each and run around without a care in the world)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Arilou wrote:

On the broader topic, I still think the problem is that Nav is either way too cheap or way too powerful. So either the amount of speed increase needs to be reduced so it's good to have (but not essential), or the EP cost should increase so there are plenty of other extensions more worth training before pushing Nav to 10.

This would just cripple new players compared to vets. Speed is always going to be the most powerful attribute.

I actually support removing Nav from the game altogether and making nav 10 the base speed.

I'd like to see speed boost modules that give you a temporary speed boost (on a cool down) that uses accumulator, and is slower/uses more accum when going up slopes but is faster/uses less accumulator when going down slopes. If the engine is capable of calculating this.

Speed should be balanced as a tactical, variable thing.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

don't know if devs should be focusing on stuff like this right now

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

it's like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound

time is of the essence atm

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Goblin, you sound like one of those dumb players who thinks that the dev-team secretary should stop doing their job, and start fixing server code bugs.

why don't you go out and save the worlds financial market! would be better than posting such stupid comments...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Well I am a financial guru. Thanks for noticing, friend.

If the devs want this project to continue down it's current trend, they can always listen to circle-K employees like you.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

If anyone asks, 'What skill should I train up first?'

No matter what race you pick, no matter what robot, no matter what your profession is; everyone always says get navigation up to level 10 asap.  Every time.

That tells you something.  If everyone has to get that skill to level 10 as soon as they start the game, why even have it in the game?  Like it has been said before, navigation in this game has become the learning skills of EVE-Online.

Remove the navigation.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Campana wrote:

This would just cripple new players compared to vets. Speed is always going to be the most powerful attribute.

If maxed Nav only gave you an extra 1kph at the most, would it be seen as the "must have" it is now? I doubt it. What if it was a rank 9? Again, probably not. So somewhere between those and the current state is a balance.

And there are a ton of other skills that will give vets a decisive advantage over new players. But for whatever reason, Nav is the only one given the title of "Train Immediately."

If the only choice is toe leave it as is or dump nav, I'll vote to dump nav. But there are a number of possible changes posted here that I would rather see.

I'd like to see speed boost modules that give you a temporary speed boost (on a cool down) that uses accumulator, and is slower/uses more accum when going up slopes but is faster/uses less accumulator when going down slopes. If the engine is capable of calculating this.

I like this. But currently, the game doesn't even consider Z changes as part of the speed. So downhill and uphill are actually both faster than when on flat terrain, but it won't help you outrun anyone and the readout doesn't change.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Do not ,. pls, do not nerf more existing skills.
Or want to revamp all game, tweak lwf, extensions, nexus etc.,.,
Or navigation extension its just "Train inmediatlly", hence usless... (my guess)
Or its working as intended and no much else to see.,.,


Every tweak in speed should be related, as its has been mostlly, to mas and weight of bots and modules.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Simple solution:
Just remove the extension.

45 (edited by Nat4raya 2011-09-06 14:42:53)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

<3 simple

simple > complicated

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Removing of this skill is noncence.
Alpha industrials dont need it and can have EP advantage over industrial agents who really need speed.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Alexadar wrote:

Removing of this skill is noncence.
Alpha industrials dont need it and can have EP advantage over industrial agents who really need speed.

is disagree not very often with you, but new player do not start as knowledgeable industrialists. they start with their "slower then heavy mech arkhe" and have to walk out several kilometers just to find their first mining spot -> and yes, nearly all new "industrial" player start with mining, or production missions, which also require to walk over half of the island.

the "option" to not spend EP into navigation is something for reset agents (hopefully gone soon) or alt agents.

this said, im again to the "increase overall bot speed and implement the formula i have posted earlier wink

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Annihilator wrote:

stuff

this said, im again to the "increase overall bot speed and implement the formula i have posted earlier wink


your idea is interesting and would work well if there were more ways to increase speed currently, but it seems unnecessary. removing the skill, upping the base speed to what was nav10 and refunding the EP is the simplest and most effective solution.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

This sounds vaguely familiar...

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Marlona Sky wrote:

If anyone asks, 'What skill should I train up first?'

No matter what race you pick, no matter what robot, no matter what your profession is; everyone always says get navigation up to level 10 asap.  Every time.

That tells you something.  If everyone has to get that skill to level 10 as soon as they start the game, why even have it in the game?  Like it has been said before, navigation in this game has become the learning skills of EVE-Online.

Remove the navigation.

Eh i guess you are talking to the wrong ppl, the exact things i say to new players are get it to 7 or 8 asap, then get it to 10 later when your other skills are semi there. Honestly i found basic robotics 6 was more important than nav 10 to start with. That right there made my life a hell of a lot easier than my nav skill to start with. I could kill things decently fast as a newb cause of it and it increased my survivability. Also usually say some fitting skills so you can fit an assault fully instead of not being able to fit the 5 weapons its suppose to have.