1 (edited by Alty McAlty 2011-09-03 10:52:18)

Topic: Remove the Navigation skill

this skill is equivalent of learning skills in EVE. you ether train it a little where it barely makes a difference, or you max it out and spend the majority of your starter EP. remove the skill and make the base speeds what they would be at nav lvl 10, this will encourage more curiosity in pvp making a more even playing field for the new characters. This will also allow people to spend there EP in more areas sooner so they can actually figure out how they want to play game instead of how fast they feel like playing it.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

As far as main characters go, this is probably true. But I do have alts for whom Nav10 is honestly not the wisest EP spending at first, and maybe not ever. As long as it isn't obviously optimal for all players to train nav fully and before anything else (as it was with learning skills), it still makes sense to keep nav around.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Only if it will not cause a tons of "nibs naw ar as fast as weeeeeeeee" QQ from vets.

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Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Why not just remove all extensions?

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Remove all extensions, make all robots seeded for 10, 100, 1000 and 10,000 Nic.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

This guy actully has a point...when a skill is the first thing you take to lvl 10...its kinda broke.

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Re: Remove the Navigation skill

It is broken.  Increase the multiplier to put it on par with basic robotics so you can't EP dump it to 10 right away.  It will thereby become a useful skill not automatically trained to max.

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8 (edited by Alty McAlty 2011-09-03 19:20:37)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Johnny EvilGuy wrote:

It is broken.  Increase the multiplier to put it on par with basic robotics so you can't EP dump it to 10 right away.  It will thereby become a useful skill not automatically trained to max.


that will cause the opposite effect, eveyone who has the skill at already will be on a higher cliff while everyone who didn't train will be even more screwed.

Arilou wrote:

As far as main characters go, this is probably true. But I do have alts for whom Nav10 is honestly not the wisest EP spending at first, and maybe not ever. As long as it isn't obviously optimal for all players to train nav fully and before anything else (as it was with learning skills), it still makes sense to keep nav around.

True that it is not completely necessary for some toons, but for anyone who wants to PVP( or not move around like a slug) its basicly the same thing, you ether train it a little and get hardly any of the advantage or fully train it and gimp yourself.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

its broken because its working exactly the same way for any bot. the fastest ones (lights that you start with) profit from it more then the slowest ones.

increasing a robots base speed is always increasing its final speed by a factor of 1.3, and ontop of that another boost by lwf.

they should have added something like the resist formula for top speed. where 100% is the maximum speed the server can handle, and bots with already high base speed would benefit less from adding navigation or lwf.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Annihilator wrote:

its broken because its working exactly the same way for any bot. the fastest ones (lights that you start with) profit from it more then the slowest ones.

increasing a robots base speed is always increasing its final speed by a factor of 1.3, and ontop of that another boost by lwf.

they should have added something like the resist formula for top speed. where 100% is the maximum speed the server can handle, and bots with already high base speed would benefit less from adding navigation or lwf.

+1, this would make fitting bots much much more flexible for what you want to achieve.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

What if Nav just wasn't quite as powerful as it is now? If it was 1/2 - 1/3 as effective as now, then it might not be as critical.

they should have added something like the resist formula for top speed. where 100% is the maximum speed the server can handle, and bots with already high base speed would benefit less from adding navigation or lwf.

As long as you don't mean that every bot will have the same max speed at Nav10. It's silly to have grophos outrunning chameleons just because the heavy's got Nav10 and the EW doesn't.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Johnny EvilGuy wrote:

It is broken.  Increase the multiplier to put it on par with basic robotics so you can't EP dump it to 10 right away.  It will thereby become a useful skill not automatically trained to max.

Good troll

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13 (edited by Annihilator 2011-09-03 22:18:30)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

example: max topspeed the server can handle is somewhat near 200kph (its less, but for easier number munching)

light bot base speed 100 kph (thats in this case speed factor 1)
heavy mech base speed 60 kph  (thats in this case speed factor 0.42)

navigation lvl10 adding 0.03*10 points:

light bot top speed would be:  113 kph (speed increase by 13 kph, 13%)
heavy mechs speed would be:  83kph  (speed increase by 23 kph, 38%) 

see - starterbots would profit less from it and could start with higher base speed, but heavymechs would not "overtake them"

formula used:

200kph * x/(1+x) ; where x=speed factor

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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14 (edited by Etil DeLaFuente 2011-09-03 23:44:13)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

or tweak robots mass, top speed is greatly influenced by mass

15 (edited by suDndEth 2011-09-04 09:03:28)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

ok i dont see the point of this. Nav 9 to 10 takes 4-6days total (A hell of alot cheaper than most of my skills i'm trying to get past 6 or 7). You don't need nav 10 to be effective, to start with. I think i had Nav 7. Took it to 9 soon shortly after then by about 3-4 weeks of playing i finished it off at 10. My one alt that doesn't have it will it finally after 2 months.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

I can see the issue but I am not sure I can see the solution.
"Nav 10 is a required extension it speeds up all forms of travel including PVP"

Which of course means new players spend the first few days trying to get Navigation installed and that's not good.

Removing Nav 10 will only help new players so I am all for that. Nerfing LWFs would also make sense at that point as long as the negative effects are balanced out after.

So increase all robot speeds to their Nav 10 and 10% LWF bonus and then reduce LWF to decrease armour by 15% and increase speed by 10%. T4 decrease armour by 10% and increase speed by 15%.

This will not effect smaller robots or robots that always fit a LWF but will effect those that didn't fit LWF with a speed increase but still not be as fast as those with a LWF.

Heavier equipment will still slow you down of course.

But the question is.. Is this the right solution? Right now Navigation is one of the cheapest extensions. New players won't even notice it got removed and older players won't be affected by the change..

So I see no reason not to change it. Are we removing complexity from the game or are we removing annoyances? The same goes for removing attributes. If anything it'll give more freedom of choice, new players won't notice it and older players may benefit from it..

So, is it a good idea? D:

CIRCLES!

17 (edited by Khader Khan 2011-09-04 10:50:52)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

EH.... I honestly do give a crap either way but, if Nav extention is removed make the LWF have a prerequsit in Mechanics and something else so that using a T4 LFW barring the actual nic cost will cost EP to get to lvl 5 Mechanics and Lvl 2 Effecient armor, or Economical armor usage. Just my 2cents

Also if its removed whats the Prerequsits on Speed Nexus going to be? was Nav something

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Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Annihilator wrote:

its broken because its working exactly the same way for any bot. the fastest ones (lights that you start with) profit from it more then the slowest ones.

increasing a robots base speed is always increasing its final speed by a factor of 1.3, and ontop of that another boost by lwf.

they should have added something like the resist formula for top speed. where 100% is the maximum speed the server can handle, and bots with already high base speed would benefit less from adding navigation or lwf.

Great suggestion, tbh.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Annihilator wrote:

its broken because its working exactly the same way for any bot. the fastest ones (lights that you start with) profit from it more then the slowest ones.

increasing a robots base speed is always increasing its final speed by a factor of 1.3, and ontop of that another boost by lwf.

they should have added something like the resist formula for top speed. where 100% is the maximum speed the server can handle, and bots with already high base speed would benefit less from adding navigation or lwf.

Excellent! The devs should hire you big_smile

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Annihilator wrote:

light bot top speed would be:  113 kph (speed increase by 13 kph, 13%)
heavy mechs speed would be:  83kph  (speed increase by 23 kph, 38%)

formula used:
200kph * x/(1+x) ; where x=speed factor

Thanks. That's much clearer.

Another option might be that each lvl of Nav adds a flat 2kph or so to the base speed (+20kph at Nav10). Fast bots have a smaller relative increase than slower bots (as in your plan), and the maths are very simple.

Made up numbers:
Lights: 90 base, 110 max (22% increase)
Heavies: 60 base, 80 max (33% increase)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

the math for base speed would be simplier, but the math regarding speed nexus, lwf and highway bonus would not change with that.

right now highway gives you a static 30kph bonus, and speed nexus gives you ~4-6 kph on a heavy mech, but 10 kph on a already light bot.

if you base speed on that formula up there, you can have that "speed balancing" globally

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: Remove the Navigation skill

There are some people who don't train Nav anything for the EP to dump in other skills, namely alts that are rolled with logistics skills so they can sell/buy to the market at a specific terminal.

If you roll a alt you get the benefit of 19k EP in nav skill too.

how ever i do agree with the OP in that if something becomes the rule then there is no point in specilizing it, especially when everyone tells everyone to get Nav 10, except the fact that it discourages having alts.

23 (edited by Alty McAlty 2011-09-04 21:07:34)

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Alexander wrote:

But the question is.. Is this the right solution? Right now Navigation is one of the cheapest extensions. New players won't even notice it got removed and older players won't be affected by the change..

So I see no reason not to change it. Are we removing complexity from the game or are we removing annoyances? The same goes for removing attributes. If anything it'll give more freedom of choice, new players won't notice it and older players may benefit from it..

So, is it a good idea? D:

CIRCLES!

Both new players and experienced vets will be affected positively. for anyone who has the skill trained high, if removed you find yourselves having something between 8,235 and 14,985ep to respend. for new players who might not have the skills trained high wont get much ep back, but will get a significant boost in speed, and now no longer have to worry about spending ep so they can keep up with there corp mates, so they can go off and spend it in whatever it is they want experiment with.

Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Careful here, there is alots of skills which are should be raised to %level_number% as a RULE. Why can't we then just start with basic robotics at 4 on al chars? or combat skills at 5 on combats?

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R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
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Re: Remove the Navigation skill

Imo, take out nav 10. As folks said its a must and draws newbies out of the game in its firs week as they realize they need at least 12K ep to rise Nav. (other simple fix might be give everybody the cost of that extension at start so they can decide if worth or not).
Don get crazy changing everything, balanace can be endless and no one will be happy, so pls unles something its broken leave it the way it is.
No same as getting to basic robotics lvl 4, that might be a interesting choice for fighter but its up to player to set his preferences and priorities (skill very needed along the game).