126

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Little OT: when the DEVs will implement Walkers/Destroyers, can we just copypaste all this thread and change HMech to Walker/Destroyer? Also slightly increase a number of light bots should be dead.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

127

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Dazamin wrote:

Solo Heavy Mech being taken down by multiple Light Bots, Balanced.
Solo Heavy killing all Lights easily, Not Balanced.
Heavy Mech pilot bringing a friend or two and owning the 7-8 man light squad, Again Balanced.

Has Dazamin just outlined some basic principles in bot warfare?

128 (edited by Hunter 2011-08-31 08:44:49)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Dazamin wrote:
Hunter wrote:

It is possible. As variant, consumption of accumulator can depend on the size of the enemy. For example, if demobilizers can consume battery like maskers, then small robot will not stop the heavy robot. The same with neutraliziers and ECM.

Actually many ways for balancing.

If I understand what you're saying, and I apologise if I'm wrong, you're arguing for Light Bot mods to be LESS effective against a Heavy Mech? Thats not balancing. Solo Heavy Mech being taken down by multiple Light Bots, Balanced. Solo Heavy killing all Lights easily, Not Balanced. Heavy Mech pilot bringing a friend or two and owning the 7-8 man light squad, Again Balanced.

No... Not less effective. I mean accumulator consumption.
look in update news for 2011-06-17:
* '''Change:''' Signal masker modules are now using energy over time, which means that the basic activation AP cost is really low, but the effect itself drains AP every 2 seconds. The basic AP usage is multiplied by the hit surface size of your robot. AP drain lasts while the effect is active, and the effect will drop if there is not enough AP to drain.

i think that need same effect for some other modules.

Everyone should understand that any balancing generates only new a disbalance.

Сайт корпорации: www.chaos-online.ru
Раздел приема в корпорацию: http://www.chaos-online.ru/foru....-perpetuum/

129

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Don't you guys think that if there is everything else should be changed to balance ERP-tanked HMech, then there is something wrong?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Dazamin wrote:

There is of course the obvious issue there that a SOLO Heavy SHOULD be vulnerable to a number of small bots

Do you have official balance statement where all this "should" described?
Again, without official dev balance statement, we cant say precisely about balance rules, we can only suggest.

Simple example: how many lights should kill a heavy? I have N1 numbers, Dazamin have N2 numbers, Hunter have N3 numbers, where N1, N2 and N3 are not correlating numbers.

Conclusion: we should only guess what balance should be.
The other question, what reimbursements should be for dramatic balance change?

131

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Alexadar wrote:
Dazamin wrote:

There is of course the obvious issue there that a SOLO Heavy SHOULD be vulnerable to a number of small bots

Do you have official balance statement where all this "should" described?
Again, without official dev balance statement, we cant say precisely about balance rules, we can only suggest.

Simple example: how many lights should kill a heavy? I have N1 numbers, Dazamin have N2 numbers, Hunter have N3 numbers, where N1, N2 and N3 are not correlating numbers.

Conclusion: we should only guess what balance should be.
The other question, what reimbursements should be for dramatic balance change?

Then why does Hunter rageposting here as if it's only his vision of H-Mech is one and only correct?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

AgY wrote:

Wonder why everyone is picking on hunter.

1) One Heavy costs 56 times more then a assault of the same color
2) One Heavy isnt able to survive 56 assault at the same time

If you take those numbers then you have to admit that:

Heavys are too expensive/Lights and Assaults are too cheap
or
Heavys are underpowered/Lights and Assaults are too strong

Either way, Hunter is right and something needs to change.
The balancing issue is logical and obvious.

I want some of what you are smoking ...

Seriously do you believe what you just wrote ?

let's look at it the other way around: can a single light kill a heavy (assume good skills and setups) ? NO. the heavy will just mop the floor with the light.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Hugh Ruka wrote:

I want some of what you are smoking ...

Seriously do you believe what you just wrote ?

let's look at it the other way around: can a single light kill a heavy (assume good skills and setups) ? NO. the heavy will just mop the floor with the light.

Good morning smile

Everyone should understand that any balancing generates only new a disbalance.

Сайт корпорации: www.chaos-online.ru
Раздел приема в корпорацию: http://www.chaos-online.ru/foru....-perpetuum/

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

should have left light/assault masking in (or a compromise between what it was and the current/reverted masking), nerf heavies offensive capabilities (instead of defense) and everything would be swell.

I am not a dev nor well versed in pvp on perpetuum but from my limited experience, it seems like this makes for a more versatile and fun/appropriate pvp experience.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

am I posting in the wrong thread, who knows...

Too lazy to read through

136 (edited by Annihilator 2011-08-31 12:09:33)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

i see some fail argumentations:

a light bot/assault squad with relative low count COULD kill an ERP tank, and even survive its attacks if they haven't been built for maximum speed (LWF disadvantage, anyone?)

The NERF happend because of the POSSIBLE inbalance of several ERP-Tank heavy mechs defending an outpost during intrusion, because even with low firepower, they could primary the attacking group one-by-one and get rid of it without casualties.

I wanted to quote DEV Alf on it during the Podcast, (i think i even did):
"Alf doesn't like Paladin like tanks that can kill others " (see last panel of the link)

I completely AGREE with that intention, as i know how much it sucks to run against a nearly unkillable squad of heavies that has range + dps + speed (Beta experience Ecor vs. M2S).

I disagree about HOW it was balanced. The Aktive TANK heavy squad can still rule the intrusion with the help of a RR ET support squad behind cover. Adding some interference penalties to RR, ERP and ET, or simply an AoE EMP weapon that works better against ERP tanked targets...

Since Middle beta there has always been the call for "Anti-Blob" game mechanics. The active Tank WAS a perfect Anti blob fit without AoE weapons implemented. Now it got nerfed down to leave only one possible active tank build: the Mesmer (uh, a blue mech, as if...).

lunch break over, discuss! (and no, ERP grophos could not fart flames)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

137 (edited by Dazamin 2011-08-31 12:15:35)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Alexadar wrote:
Dazamin wrote:

There is of course the obvious issue there that a SOLO Heavy SHOULD be vulnerable to a number of small bots

Do you have official balance statement where all this "should" described?
Again, without official dev balance statement, we cant say precisely about balance rules, we can only suggest.

Simple example: how many lights should kill a heavy? I have N1 numbers, Dazamin have N2 numbers, Hunter have N3 numbers, where N1, N2 and N3 are not correlating numbers.

Conclusion: we should only guess what balance should be.
The other question, what reimbursements should be for dramatic balance change?

As to exact balance, like the how many lights should kill a heavy, we can argue over the numbers sure, but as a general principle, a larger bot should be vulnerable to a number of smaller bots. If they are not, then what is the point of smaller bots (there is none). I mean if we continue on that line of thought, why should a group of small bots be able to kill a solo Kain? Or a solo Termis? A guy got caught solo, in a Heavy Mech, not fitted to deal well with small bots (This fit is an option for him) and died, that seems fairly well balanced to me.

In terms of skill reimbursements, my opinion would be that this only happens if a skill no longer does anything in the game, things should be balanced on a regular basis, and giving reimbursements because people don't like the way it was done is not necessary.

As a side question, does anyone think that stacking penalties would be a better solution to dealing with those builds that stack for example x number of Rep Tunings, rather than simply nerfing the module itself? As far as I can see, the module wasn't the problem, stacking it was.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Diminishing returns on some modules would probably suit change better than just nerfing the module and changing the core values for everyone.

Take the long way around back to square one
Today we're just outlaws out on the run

139

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Hugh Ruka wrote:
AgY wrote:

Wonder why everyone is picking on hunter.

1) One Heavy costs 56 times more then a assault of the same color
2) One Heavy isnt able to survive 56 assault at the same time

If you take those numbers then you have to admit that:

Heavys are too expensive/Lights and Assaults are too cheap
or
Heavys are underpowered/Lights and Assaults are too strong

Either way, Hunter is right and something needs to change.
The balancing issue is logical and obvious.

I want some of what you are smoking ...

Seriously do you believe what you just wrote ?

let's look at it the other way around: can a single light kill a heavy (assume good skills and setups) ? NO. the heavy will just mop the floor with the light.

Is this: "i deny that its true?"

Calculate it yourself and you will see that im right.
Btw i forgot to mention that Mechs and Heavy Mechs actually need Epriton and Assaults/Lights not.
Also there are many ways to balance this. I didnt ask for a Heavy that can tank 56 Assaults but for a Heavy that is worth the effort (Epri risk, Time invested).

Right now Heavys are too expensive for what they provide.

And btw 1on1 Heavy vs light => light runs away nobody dies. lol

If devs fail to balance mechs/heavy mechs vs assaults/lights then they can as well remove them from the game.

140 (edited by Arilou 2011-08-31 18:50:36)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

AgY wrote:

1) One Heavy costs 56 times more then a assault of the same color
2) One Heavy isnt able to survive 56 assault at the same time

If you take those numbers then you have to admit that:

Heavys are too expensive/Lights and Assaults are too cheap
or
Heavys are underpowered/Lights and Assaults are too strong

Either way, Hunter is right and something needs to change.
The balancing issue is logical and obvious.

Why on earth would I "take those numbers"?

If you don't think heavies are worth it, don't buy one. And if it's really as unbalanced as you say, then no one else will buy heavies either. No one's forcing them to. But when a ton of people keep buying and fielding them, it's because they are worth the price and play a role that other bots cannot.

141

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Just because some people have reached the point when they dont want to use lights/assaults anymore doesnt mean that they are balanced or worth it.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Syndic wrote:

all balance was in favor of using cheap T1 light and assault ships for PVP

This is exactly what the overall interpretation.

143

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Annihilator wrote:

The NERF happend because of the POSSIBLE inbalance of several ERP-Tank heavy mechs defending an outpost during intrusion, because even with low firepower, they could primary the attacking group one-by-one and get rid of it without casualties.

I disagree about HOW it was balanced. The Aktive TANK heavy squad can still rule the intrusion with the help of a RR ET support squad behind cover. Adding some interference penalties to RR, ERP and ET, or simply an AoE EMP weapon that works better against ERP tanked targets...

*Insert very long list of POSSIBLE fits/tactics i can still use to POSSIBLY prevent ENTIRE army's from capturing objectives with UNDER 5 BOTS*

Literally i have 3 in mind not one of which involves tanking and is nearly as risky.

You cannot nerf based off of future "IF's" and i would be quite discussed with Alf if that is the case.

I also agree with that changes could have been made but to a much lesser degree  MUCH. but regardless pre-nerf lets assume that fear came true any number of  attacking squad's could easily win  as long as they fielded 1-2 ECM and 1 ictus or a few neuters, they could kill 5-8 Lemon builds sitting on a SAP.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

don't be discussed bro

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Good news everyone! Oh wait, i have no news to u.

Spam light\*** t1 zerg for the win - its cheap and dont require endgame tech. Outmass enemy tacklers and support, focus enemy mechs, suicide attack (sure succsesful, easy and deadly as hell) heavy mech group and...

Profit! "We r tru pvp gads u guys nabz ha ha start whining bout haw 5m nic speedgang killd ur 1bil army in def pos losers". Good game.

p.s. holy ***, why if DEVs makes do general changes i got zero EP returned? I could waste them on shield. Oh not this crap again, it's nerfed too.

Enjoy ur sandbox, and enjoy ur %islandname% while u can.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

That's my query

Shouldn't mechs be the pinnacle of durability with minimal offensive capabilities? Increase shielding bonus for grophos substantially and reduce acc usage, increase seth innate resists (is that implemented yet?), and as far as Mesmers go... guess boost their rep bonus even further.

In exchange, reduce their dps output substantially.

Seems like a pretty easy solution to me. Any thoughts?

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

but how u can make heavy mech damage more "less offensive"? if so/ enemy could just ignore mechs and continue attacking other targets and run away.

Enjoy ur sandbox, and enjoy ur %islandname% while u can.

148

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Shields got buff actually. Well, except Seth big_smile

Seems we have 2 sides. On first, there are playes who "don't want any kind of wtfpwn hmechs runnin around". On second, there are those who "invested so much money and ep into this game and want a reward".

Perhaps, those changes were too much big. PERHAPS. Perhaps even, that today's patch will revert them or makes them different. However, such things like "mah invested gimme that" never should be used like an argument. In other case, maybe we should sell EP's or buffs even for money?

ERP-tanks weren't end-of-game things. HMechs are still useable, same as all other bots. T4 fit still worth to produce and use, no matter what do you say here. This game isn't about running or killing HMechs only, that's it.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

149 (edited by Goblin 2011-09-01 07:25:53)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

That's where the increased masking for lights/assaults comes back into play

Enemies would have to approach the front line to see them and if mechs were to say, take less damage from explosion radius as well, you have a nifty little setup.

Oh, and if devs choose to do this which they probably won't, increase Grophos acc recharge rate and max cap to make it more difficult to sap them.

150 (edited by Alexander 2011-09-01 07:28:21)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

The patch today being only an hour I'd expect very few changes to the game and a lot more NPC spawns. Though I've been wrong before.
Knowing my luck EVERYTHING will get balanced and there will be much "WTF, why was XYZ changed?"

Goblin wrote:

That's where the increased masking for lights/assaults comes back into play

Enemies would have to approach the front line to see them and if mechs were to say, take less damage from explosion radius as well, you have a nifty little setup.

Oh, and if devs choose to do this which they probably won't, increase Grophos acc recharge rate and max cap to make it more difficult to sap them.

That doesn't seem to be the devs style. They'll just add a energy warfare module that protects you from being drained and neuted..

This is not a suggestion.. I personally think more modules right now is a bad thing.