26 (edited by Robophiliac 2011-08-29 07:33:49)

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

I think the whole "persistence" argument doesn't quite fit as well in this game as it may in some other games.

We are remote controlling software here and our EP pools represent the ability to control more and more programs at once as time goes on.  Imo it should be far far easier to change up what software we use (aka reset).

Before you jump down my throat on that last comment I am not saying that a player should be able to reset after each fight or loss to specifically be able to counter what the enemy is throwing at them.  But I honestly do not see a problem with being able to reset one's "software package" say every 2 weeks - month.

This would encourage people to experiment with different builds and fittings as they would not have to be worried about being stuck in something that doesn't work or that they just plain don't like for months on end waiting for more EP to build. 

Attributes should indeed be done away with I feel, especially as new players really have no idea what they are sticking themselves with when they first start off.

Maybe keep the attribute associations that each extension current has and add new attribute extensions that can be skilled up in to specifically lower the EP costs of training those extensions associated with that attribute.  Maybe even these "specialization extensions" would only effect the higher level extensions associated with an attribute.  In this way a player can skill up on all the basic extensions to start with, then having a much better grasp on the game be able to upgrade the "specialization extensions" for the more specialized path they wish to follow.

Edit:  Let me also add I would love to see twice as many extensions and options as we currently have and eagerly await the far off yet custom robots idea the devs would like to someday add.  Imo the more and varied options players have to create their own unique builds and roles and the diverse challenges and opportunities that creates the better.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Experimenting with different builds means finding the fotm when everyone can simply switch to it at the next reset. When your choices are simply limited by your total accumulated EP, and not the time it takes to get a particular skill, then the EP/time becomes meaningless. And since the game is designed around the EP/time, it breaks the basic tennant of the game and balancing becomes even more difficult.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

god forbid you allow players to try a new build every few months without having to subscribe 5 accounts

The mindset should be why are people leaving and what can we do to improve their experience. People like you, Syndic, Lemon, etc who are against a free reset will NOT be vacating the game if they are provided, however a good deal of people have and will continue to leave from angst and sheer boredom if they don't have access to something that will break the monotony of perpetuum.

A final free reset can only be good for the collective player base and if you can't see that, you don't understand politics or sociology that well imo.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

I have a good understanding of it. I'll demonstrate with the following observeration, which is the one where players feel they can ransom their subscription fee as a tool to modify the game. The answer is that if a game mechanic fits the vision of where the developers want the game to go, it should stay. If it drives the game to ruin, then its the failure of the vision of the developers, not the mechanic.

Trying a new build every month is possible, being kick-ass perfect ninja warrior in a new build isn't, but if you see a small change improves the function your trying to build, then you know your on the right track. All the reset does is supply instant gratification.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Resets are nice.  Changing things a bit might also be beneficial.

Then again, Perp is a sandbox.  There's nothing stopping me from widely spreading my skills to have a taste of a bit of everything.  Therefore, I feel that the claim that a reset is necessary to keep things from being boring (which I will presume is caused by a limited scope of specialized skills - correct me if I'm mistaken) is the fault of the player at the keyboard assigning EP in the first place.

While AC is in the business of supplying a framework for fun, it can't and shouldn't center said business model on compensating for players' limited "must be the best among all others" mentality.  The truth is you don't need to subscribe with more than one account to get good at a lot of things.  You merely need to be patient rather than intense.

This all goes back to the idea of not allowing a game that's supposed to be fun turn into another aspect of life worth getting yourself overly excited about.  Real life has enough drama without the lot of us manufacturing more for ourselves in the things we do for amusement.

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Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Arga wrote:

I have a good understanding of it. I'll demonstrate with the following observeration, which is the one where players feel they can ransom their subscription fee as a tool to modify the game. The answer is that if a game mechanic fits the vision of where the developers want the game to go, it should stay. If it drives the game to ruin, then its the failure of the vision of the developers, not the mechanic.

It would be one thing if they were just empty threats. Problem is, there is some real substance there and I feel like I have my finger on the pulse of the community for the most part considering I spend more time bullsh*tting on general chat/forums than I do actually playing the game at this point.

Would you care to step out of your shoes for one moment and answer my question objectively? Who will leave if there is one final reset provided and who will leave and never bother to return if there isn't something to keep them occupied long enough for the staff to introduce new content.

Simple question

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Johnny EvilGuy wrote:

The truth is you don't need to subscribe with more than one account to get good at a lot of things.

No

just No

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Goblin wrote:
Johnny EvilGuy wrote:

The truth is you don't need to subscribe with more than one account to get good at a lot of things.

No

just No

Heh, if the only way you can have fun in a game is by rolling multiple accounts more power to you, I guess.  I can think of other things (beer, hookers, a riding lawn mower with a NOS kit, a beer-powered riding lawn gnome hooker with a NOS kit, etc.) to do with my life.  Then again, I'm fairly patient and don't get too emotionally vested in games.  Not everyone can establish the metal cordon necessary to keep a MMO from taking over their life.  Not that I'm accusing you of such a deficiency...heh

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Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

I didn't answer the question, because its loaded to make your point and not an objective look at the situation.

I'm not disagreeing that having a reset is something useful and desireable, just like if the Dev's offered everyone free cake, no one's going to quit over that.

My assertion is that if someone is going to quit because you don't give them free cake, and they follow through with it, then you have to continue to give them cake everytime to keep them subscribed. I don't want anyone to leave the game, but I also don't think the bribing them to stay is any kind of strategy either.

Providing a solid game experience is what's going to keep people subscribed, a whole meal and not just deserts.

But in direct answer to your question, a reset breaks the EP per min gradual progression of the game. The reset is there to allow new players that may not know how the game works, to correct major errors. It's not a tool for changing builds.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Arga wrote:

My assertion is that if someone is going to quit because you don't give them free cake, and they follow through with it, then you have to continue to give them cake everytime to keep them subscribed. I don't want anyone to leave the game, but I also don't think the bribing them to stay is any kind of strategy either.

I'll add one minor rider to this comment.

Those that would leave over not getting their way will probably leave anyway and are merely looking for a way to emotionally justify their divorce with the game.  For instance, if I were kicked from my PvP corp to become a free agent and were upset over that, allowing it to spoil my game experience, I'd seek out a reason to be upset with AC over something silly so I could use that as a reason to quit playing instead of just talking endlessly in general chat.  Then it'd look to others like I was leaving over the reason I created rather than the whole walking away from the corp thing that is the real driving psychology that underlies my argument.  Just saying...

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36 (edited by Goblin 2011-08-29 23:05:47)

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Arga wrote:

I didn't answer the question, because its loaded to make your point and not an objective look at the situation.

I'm not disagreeing that having a reset is something useful and desireable, just like if the Dev's offered everyone free cake, no one's going to quit over that.

My assertion is that if someone is going to quit because you don't give them free cake, and they follow through with it, then you have to continue to give them cake everytime to keep them subscribed. I don't want anyone to leave the game, but I also don't think the bribing them to stay is any kind of strategy either.

Providing a solid game experience is what's going to keep people subscribed, a whole meal and not just deserts.

But in direct answer to your question, a reset breaks the EP per min gradual progression of the game. The reset is there to allow new players that may not know how the game works, to correct major errors. It's not a tool for changing builds.


So you are essentially explaining why you are dancing around the question.

Fact is, with games like SWTOR (which appeals to the same audience we have here for the most part), diablo II, GW2, etc etc etc as well as new Eve information surfacing, the staff needs to sink its hooks into this new fickle breed of subscribers like yours truly ASAP. You need to get them invested into this game and strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Your like that lawyer in the campy TV law dramas.

Just answer the question. No I don't want you to explain, just answer the question because its worded in such a way that it just looks bad if you do.

fine, no one's going to leave over getting a reset.

Will people leave if they don't get it? I guess the only way to know the answer to that is to not give one and see.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

That's another great point you bring up as well Arga. The fact that this system is unforgiving to new players. I as well as a bunch of others used our free resets right off-the-bat and while you could accuse me of being impatient or trigger happy, It does take a long while before you learn the subtle nuances of the game and find what playstyle/build/team is best for you.

Infact, that is the reason why this new reset system was formulated in the first place smile So you would think since the greater portion of our "new" players have elapsed the 30 day mark, naturally they should be given a free reset to take advantage of this new system. Even vets like you can benefit, since resetting is most detrimental to you as far as total EP cost.

It's a one time thing we are talking about. Resets will soon be outright removed and no longer available. Your argument about being able to change at a whim has no validity.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

I found Perp very, very easy to learn and play.  Every module, extension, and bot has a description and detailed stats.  Nothing is hidden or even requires much of a brain to understand.  Additionally, any off-the-wall questions I had were readily answered by helpful players, GMs, or DEV types that happened to be around.

Okay sure, not everyone rolls out of bed as a super genius and some may simply not have a knack for the game.  Since I readily admit that I suffer from a horribly deficient mind lacking any capacity for learning, I think I make an excellent barometer for success.

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Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Arga wrote:

Your like that lawyer in the campy TV law dramas.

Just answer the question. No I don't want you to explain, just answer the question because its worded in such a way that it just looks bad if you do.

fine, no one's going to leave over getting a reset.

Will people leave if they don't get it? I guess the only way to know the answer to that is to not give one and see.

Lol, I can see why you are a valued member of the community smile

Might I add, I am just as much trying to understand your perspective as I am trying to convey mine and those in my position.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

As I've said before, if they offer a reset I'll take it, on a combat character. Any charcter that has been doing research and reputation grinding isn't normally going to go for a losing it all.

But I also don't think there was any reason to offer a full account reset at all. Account reseting is a bad mechanic added for the short term to address issues with new players and the steep learning curve. I argued against it when it first came out and continue to.

I support an EP Adjustment system, or even an EP reset if needs must, but resetting an entire account to make up for misplaced EP is overkill.

If someone needs thier current character to disappear, they can do so with the penalty before the change comes. If they are really just worried about EP allocation, then the new system of adjustment should be grandfathered to allow everyone the opportunity to use it.

New players will benefit more from an EP adjustment mechanic then from a full reset that requires them to lose any non-EP character progression they may have earned.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of reallocation of EP instead of full resets since I'm only starting to make some headway on my kernel research and definitely would not want to start that all over again.

However the devs have mentioned a possible first month's time during which a player can swap some EPs around if level 5 or lower and maybe grandfathering older toons in for the first moth after releasing it.  I'm not really a fan of this idea and think it should be more available than just the first month.

I think I'd like a timered reallocation system with no level limits myself.  Think something like UO's stat system change mechanics.  Here a player could flag a skill to decrease over time and slowly gain back the EP spent into an extension till it was back to level 1.  I wouldn't allow skills to be fully lowered back to 0 however.  The amount of time for an extension to decrease 1 point would be dependent on the level of the extension and number of points spent into it.

Let's use Data Processing and Accumulator Expansion as examples...
Data Processing is a level 1 skill, Accumulator Expansion is a level 5 skill you currently have 7 points into each. 

Flagging Data Process to decrease would take 7 days to drop 1 point, flagging Accumulator Expansion would take 10.5 days or +.5x as long as its a level 5 skill.

The exact amounts of time could be figured out by the devs and the numbers above are only to give examples.

The point is to allow players more flexibility.  I'm thinking more long term here when we have tons more extensions and possibilities for roles and play styles than we have at the moment.  But the point we are discussing is what changes could be made to work better overall down the line.




Arga wrote:

Experimenting with different builds means finding the fotm when everyone can simply switch to it at the next reset. When your choices are simply limited by your total accumulated EP, and not the time it takes to get a particular skill, then the EP/time becomes meaningless. And since the game is designed around the EP/time, it breaks the basic tennant of the game and balancing becomes even more difficult.


This I do not agree with.  Yes there are some that may use it for such but when I say I want to be able to experiment with different builds and try new things out that is exactly what I mean.

I played DAoC for 5 years and spent A LOT of time trying out new and different builds on my toons specifically because I did not just want to use the same old fotm that everyone else was playing at that time.  I ended up with many builds that while sounded good in theory simply did not work well at all, and others that worked much better than I had thought they would and were fun. 

DAoC was VERY fotm and min/max mentality and I never would have had some of the fun times I did if there wasn't a way for players to branch out and try new things without getting stuck with toons that completely did not work.

Again all I'm saying is more directed at the long term of the game than just the right now.  Atm while it may seem like a lot of choices, there are really few play style/role selections available which is understandable since this is a new game with no preset "classes".  As time goes on though and more and more new stuff is added the possibilities and options become more varied.  I'd like a good system in place to be able to try out/test new ideas with out feeling "stuck" with something or having wasted a month or more of EP so I could see if I'd like to change the way I play.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Robophiliac wrote:

I think I'd like a timered reallocation system with no level limits myself.

I stopped reading here.

The basic premise that the game is built on again is 1 EP/Min.

It isn't a learning based system, where you have to choose a skill ahead of time and wait for it to complete, and you lose that time if you never complete it.

You will always get something for every EP you spend.

Wanting the learning system to be like another game is fine, but this is the system we have. When people suggest modifying the way EP is either gained or some mechanic where it can be recovered (on some ongoing basis), you're really asking for a whole new skilling system.

There are tools like the Perpetuum planer and Profit that allow you to see what skills you need to do certain fits, there really isn't nor should there be, a need to create the fit live just to see if it works.

Its already been repeated in every mmo with talent trees and the abilty to change them. Someone finds the 'best' allocation, and the majority of players do it. It's simple min/max nature, if Fit A does 2% more dps than Fit B, everyone is going to use Fit B; until someone finds a Fit C with 1% more.

With the current system, you can ALWAYS get to Fit C, you just can't do it immediately. You can play around with fits as much as you want, and people do. Was I happy to get a reset, I sure was, and I used it to buy a lot of extensions to 10. But I also waited and earned the ability to drive the Riveler MK II, and it was much more satisfying to undock in that the first time then with the character I reset.

Can they change EP? probably.

Will it make the game less rewarding? I think it will in the long run.

Should they change it? That's not up to me. I'll continue playing either way, but I prefer 1 EP/min method.

Will a different skill system be funner? Maybe it would, but it would be a fundamental change in the game.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Remove extensions and move to an experience based system...?

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Ponies. WTF, we don't need resets, you little carebearing ***.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Devs, have you decide yet?

Will attributes stay?
Will reset happen?

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Ms. Bitters wrote:

The machine will now decide your fate.

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Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Jasdemi wrote:

Devs, have you decide yet?

Will attributes stay?
Will reset happen?

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Goblin wrote:
Jasdemi wrote:

Devs, have you decide yet?

Will attributes stay?
Will reset happen?

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Jasdemi wrote:
Goblin wrote:
Jasdemi wrote:

Devs, have you decide yet?

Will attributes stay?
Will reset happen?

You're like children the day before christmas! wink