1 (edited by Alexander 2011-08-27 17:42:07)

Topic: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Attributes are nice but rather lock you into a role before you even know how to play.
They're one of the few things that also keep this game very similar to that other game and aren't needed.

I propose that the current method of calculating EP cost gets changed. Remove attributes from the game and lower base cost of extensions from 100 to around 56 (Currently the best attributes possible) or to 60 (Will make angry faces appear). ***

This would then mean the character creation could also be made shorter to [Faction] > [Spark]  > [Avatar]

The most major change here is that the number of sparks available could be to three and sparks, instead of giving an attribute bonus, would give a game bonuses. The main category for the sparks could be [Combat] [Industry] [Political]. The bonuses could be a percentage bonus to certain game abilities like rate of fire bonus or NIC from assignments or could even be a static extension bonus.

Now sparks could then become more of a game item as well. Your spark is like your robots soul or to put it simply it's the cloud of nanites you use to control every robot you jump into. Switching sparks could be made possible using NIC at 10 Million NIC per change and there could be more sparks available once you enter the game. Meaning that the basic combat spark you get at the start of the game could be updated using NIC/Resources/Building/Spark Patches etc.. to do more than the base spark did but never get lost. So as you play the game you can upgrade your spark to what you're specialised in but always remove a level of update and start again. This would only ever add at most 5% to say mining yield or 5% to weapon cycle time but it could be seen as adding depth to the game.

With attributes removed it more likely that people will cross train without being called noobs but specialisation will ALWAYS have an added bonus.

Now of course with these changes I also suggest making it so anything under level 6 can be lowered to level 1 (Unless it's required as a prerequisite) and that the UI is made better to show the difference between level 1 to 5 and 6+..

Remove character resets but off a one time use EP reset to all accounts if this change is brought into effect.

Simples. Comments would be appreciated.


*** Current Calculations for EP cost:
100 - Primary_Att - (Secondary_Att * 0.5) * Complexity * Level * Multiplier 
    Multiplie:
        If Level 0 to 5 = Multiplier 1
        If Level 6 = Multiplier 2
        If Level 7 = Multiplier 3
        If Level 8 = Multiplier 4
        If Level 9 = Multiplier 5
        If Level 10 = Multiplier 10

Best attributes 30/28 split. Best EP cost per level = 100 - 30 - (28/2) = 56.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

We recently talked about the attributes with the team, and we have similar feelings about the attributes. Do we really need them? I personally say that they are more likely in the way, instead of having any use. This is what Zoom mentioned as groundbreaking change, and will definitely call for a free character reset for everyone IF we decide to go this way.

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Its a well thought out idea, but I think we had QUITE enough "free resets" for a persistent sandbox world.

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4 (edited by Arilou 2011-08-27 19:56:39)

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Alexander wrote:

Attributes are nice but rather lock you into a role before you even know how to play.
They're one of the few things that also keep this game very similar to that other game and aren't needed.

Totally agreed. Seems a lot of people on the forums really want to be able to jump around to whatever roles they feel like that day. I don't see any reason to deny them this, so long as it doesn't needlessly involve any silly extension reassignments or regularly-scheduled-remap nonsense. At the most complex, just make extensions something impermanent that you buy and plug in (higher level, higher cost or something).

DEV Alf wrote:

...will definitely call for a free character reset for everyone IF we decide to go this way.

Don't really need free resets, either, assuming you keep the same extensions in the game. Just figure out the difference between what the player has already spent vs. what it would cost for the same skill set under the new system, and give them a surplus or deficit according to the result. Assuming people are currently extending according to their spark, we'll all be in roughly the same boat.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Well, such changes really would call for a reset, because if you trained an extension now that you don´t have attributes for, you would have wasted EP if extensions were changed like suggested by Alexander.
I agree with having enough with the free resets, so I would suggested giving it a timeframe, like for 14 days after that patch you can do a free reset, if you don´t, that possibility vanishes.

The ones saying "impossible" shall not disturb the ones already doing it

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

EP/extension history reset, sure.

Name, employment history, trophy/loss history, transaction history, etc. reset, NO.

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Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

I support Alex' idea. Attributes are annoying as hell.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Syndic wrote:

EP/extension history reset, sure.

Name, employment history, trophy/loss history, transaction history, etc. reset, NO.

I AGREE.
DOWN WITH CHARACTER RESETS!

When I say RESET I do not mean account. smile

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

In general, attributes used to create on of the 3 specs (2 tbh, because politics spec is extremely rare)
I dont know about removing attributes at all, maybe good idea, but what i see now: game needs to remove all unused options. Just allow players to choose between military, industry or politics. Or propose players to discuss how attributes should be simplified.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Alexander wrote:
Syndic wrote:

EP/extension history reset, sure.

Name, employment history, trophy/loss history, transaction history, etc. reset, NO.

I AGREE.
DOWN WITH CHARACTER RESETS!

When I say RESET I do not mean account. smile

You have my vote too.

11 (edited by Annihilator 2011-08-27 21:36:04)

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

IMHO, if they remove the attributes and revamp the extension costs, the extensions should absolutely NOT be reseted, but all agents extensionlevels recalculated with the new costs and their EP pool adjusted accordingly.

this will be more work, will result in agents probably with negative EP - but for the sake of persistance absolutely necessary.

edit: if done right, no agent should end up with negative EP if the extensioncosts are based on current fully specialized builds for each extreme.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Alexadar wrote:

In general, attributes used to create on of the 3 specs (2 tbh, because politics spec is extremely rare)
I dont know about removing attributes at all, maybe good idea, but what i see now: game needs to remove all unused options. Just allow players to choose between military, industry or politics. Or propose players to discuss how attributes should be simplified.

If you remove attributes then starting the game is like a blank slate.
If you want to specialise you still can. This is where the UI needs an update as well as perhaps a feature to allow lowering extensions.

Add to this a spark that can be upgraded/patched/gains experience over time (Delete where appropriate) and you can form a character to suit your playing style. You'll still get the odd player who's invested 200k EP into extensions they don't want any more but that's life and at least they have a character good at SOMETHING (It's hard not to have a character good at something with 200K EP sunk into it)

Specialising under this system is still best because you get there first. Even if the EP costs for extensions are a lot more similar If I spend 10K EP in weapons that's 10K EP I could have spent somewhere else.. and 10K EP represents almost 7 days!

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Annihilator wrote:

IMHO, if they remove the attributes and revamp the extension costs, the extensions should absolutely NOT be reseted, but all agents extensionlevels recalculated with the new costs and their EP pool adjusted accordingly.

this will be more work, will result in agents probably with negative EP - but for the sake of persistance absolutely necessary

This is is an option I agree. No extension costs should increase unless the EP base cost is set higher than 56 and I'd assume EP costs maths would get a small revamp.

Honestly I prefer this idea in general to a EP reset! Good thinking.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Alexander wrote:

If you remove attributes then starting the game is like a blank slate.

Maybe this game needs kinda of reset or global revamp. Why there is not much new players... okay this was kinda offtop big_smile

15 (edited by Alexander 2011-08-27 21:53:08)

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Alexadar wrote:
Alexander wrote:

If you remove attributes then starting the game is like a blank slate.

Maybe this game needs kinda of reset or global revamp. Why there is not much new players... okay this was kinda offtop big_smile

O_O

I survived three resets. This game does not need a reset. The community standard on the whole has dropped and supporting new players is no longer the "Cool" thing to do but it should be. There has also been a drop in publicity *Looks to devs*

16 (edited by Alexadar 2011-08-27 22:03:31)

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

My bad, i typed not what i meant to say. I meant not about reset. Meh, i dont want to see this server-wipe-madness again. I want to say that this game need a changes such as simplifying attributes system, or a similar ones. Some of good improvements, some nerfs for the useless functionality, and people will make this game full of interesting stuff.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Wow, you're really going places guys. Alf mentions a free reset (EP reset!) connected with a possible attribute system change and we're already at a server wipe...what the hell?

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Wow, you're really going places guys. Alf mentions a free reset (EP reset!) connected with a possible attribute system change and we're already at a server wipe...what the hell?

+1 for the server wipe!

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Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Okays, lets move away from the reset mechanic used AFTER this suggest change and get back to the change.

Is anyone against simplified attributes and if so why and is there anything that can be done to help solve the raised issue.

As for the reset stuff we can cross that bridge later.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

This is a mmorpg, a role playing game you make decision at the start based on your interests, the attributes helps to stick to your plan and goals of how would you like to play, it also helps specialized players feel more valuable as a result of their patience and discipline which should be commended.

All I have met in game have played a few other mmos, so it's no surprise that your starting character is an important aspect to enjoy the game and decisions made at character creation should have meaning and consequences through out your game experience.

What I wouldn't  like its a dumb down version of attributes. I am not that bothered with the way it is right now and don't see it as a big issue for game to progress further, other than a few attempts to remap your attributes in the characters lifetime, no resets please.

RIP PERPETUUM

21 (edited by Arilou 2011-08-28 01:14:01)

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Annihilator wrote:

IMHO, if they remove the attributes and revamp the extension costs, the extensions should absolutely NOT be reseted, but all agents extensionlevels recalculated with the new costs and their EP pool adjusted accordingly.

Arilou wrote:

Just figure out the difference between what the player has already spent vs. what it would cost for the same skill set under the new system, and give them a surplus or deficit according to the result.

Great minds... wink

As far as being for or against a simplified attribute system: I kind of wonder why you wouldn't just do away with attributes entirely. Start everyone on equal potential and don't constrain them with arbitrary categories. There should be more freedom to mix and match without needing to "optimize" via same-account alts. You'll still get traditionally focused characters, but you might also get some novel combinations (sandboxy!).

This is a mmorpg

Really dangerous I think to overdefine a genre. Sure, it needs to be "massively multiplayer" and "online" (like FPSes need a certain camera view and guns), but so long as people are "playing roles" it's an RPG. You don't need levels and attributes and classes though, that's just the convention so far (plenty of exceptions exist).

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Celebro wrote:

This is a mmorpg, a role playing game you make decision at the start based on your interests, the attributes helps to stick to your plan and goals of how would you like to play, it also helps specialized players feel more valuable as a result of their patience and discipline which should be commended.

All I have met in game have played a few other mmos, so it's no surprise that your starting character is an important aspect to enjoy the game and decisions made at character creation should have meaning and consequences through out your game experience.

What I wouldn't  like its a dumb down version of attributes. I am not that bothered with the way it is right now and don't see it as a big issue for game to progress further, other than a few attempts to remap your attributes in the characters lifetime, no resets please.

I can understand this mentality but for every 1 person that feel this way I expect 10 more feel frustrated by it.

Locking yourself into something before you have any real knowledge of it can be an experience. However it can also be a pain to then see someone else go swanning past because they made a slightly difference choice than you and, not only are you not able to do what they do but you never will be able to because they'll always be better than you. Not a nice feeling.

In RL this happens a lot but this in the internet and a game. It doesn't have to be difficult to be enjoyable complex.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

I actually like this idea. The attributes really don't affect me one way or another but it would give more freedom. I do have one concern tho if the attributes get removed and the Extension amounts get tweaked no one should end up with negative EP no matter what. It was time paid for under the previous system and it shouldn't effect the changes unless there is an EP reset involved. Now I really don't like the account reset idea myself. Hate that everything disappears about the character. You should be able to check their profile and get a hint at how old they are. It gives a person an idea of how big of a threat they possible could be.

As for the whole idea with bonuses to sparks and so forth, if the attributes are removed its a great idea it still gives people bonuses for choosing a path and a little advantage or disadvantage over a person who went a different route but with that you'd probably require to introduce a one time Race/Spark/Corp/Sub-Corp change. Since you'd be revamping the whole system and introducing stuff that older players wouldn't have access to which could very much change the way people choose their whole setup.

Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Alex, how would your "spark gain experience/patch/upgrade" idea work retroactively for older sparks? I think that idea has lots of potential, reminds me of implants in EVE. lol

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Re: Balance Attributes, character creation and progression.

Syndic wrote:

Alex, how would your "spark gain experience/patch/upgrade" idea work retroactively for older sparks? I think that idea has lots of potential, reminds me of implants in EVE. lol

I'd prefer if it was less like implants and more like an added bonus for doing things.
I'd say start a clean slate for implementation and then the more things you do (Combat, industry, trade ect) the more points go to your spark. It should never great a game changing balance but it would give more reason to play. "I have 3 Billion NIC and I am waiting for 40,000EP what should I do?" could be answered with "Anything, it'll help your spark." or "Train up a new spark?".

Points over time is nice but this could add an element of reward as you play.