Topic: Market... or lack thereof.

Honestly, while I originally thought the idea of corp restricted orders on the market was a pretty good idea, I'm finding that it's the bane of the entire game's growth.

Corps buy and sell internally so product never gets out to the unaffiliated or small corps.  With nothing to buy, and no one selling, the small corps and independents are left to their own devices.

So, IMO, I feel that the game is doomed to extinction solely because of closed internal corporate markets.  A game that relies strongly on a player driven market cannot grow without any market.

So, as much as I enjoy the game, I don't want to slave myself to some megacorp just to access any sort of viable market.  Once my accounts expire I can't bring myself to renew them.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

So I guess you dont have any stuff I can haz?

Because the voices told me to do it.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Well, if the first troll is ^^^ I guess I'm not wrong in my observations.

No.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

unfortunately the only thing that can fix the open market is players and that is going to take time.  Several corporations are working on it.  But there is no quick fix I can offer you.

----
I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Curious where i can learn more about the topic since im unfamiliar with it

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

The market is filling up quite nicely, saying it's dead is certainly an exaggeration. In recent time more and more independent producers have shown up as well, so I think there's a lot of hope. Out of curiosity, which items have you -not- found? I might be able to help with this.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Location, Location, Location. Outside of T4 and some T3 stuff, I can find just about everything in ICS Alpha Terminal in Attalica or Truhold-Markson Alpha Terminal in New Virginia. Independent producers in PO are going to go to popular hubs so they can sell their product. Trying to sell equipment in less active terminals can take a while and most people want to produce the product, sell it, profit, rinse and repeat.

   Switching gears a little bit to ore instead of equipment, I like to mine in a less populated area and it great. I have no problems finding ore but when it comes to selling it, it takes me about 20 minutes to reach a “popular” terminal to sell my ore, and as Winter stated above, the only fix to the open market is having a bigger community and expanding outside of main hubs to sell. Something like this will just take time.

By the way, you mention slaving yourself to some megacorp for equipment but that isn’t the case. PIE for example has helped me out quite a bit and we are far from mega.

Descent
Selling quality ore since 2011

8 (edited by Sundial 2011-08-14 01:34:28)

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

The market is fine, I can find pretty much whatever I need on it, even T3/T4 stuff.

Its growing as well, you just need to use the "Terminals Near Here" option and go there to pick up what you need. Maybe when the game grows enough you won't have to do that, but as of now yes it is required.

Saying that all corps do not sell stuff on the external market is false. Even ATG, a communist corp sells stuff on the market as a means of income to help buy materials / modules we cannot produce.

I think you are blowing this way out of proportion OP.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Omen wrote:

Curious where i can learn more about the topic since im unfamiliar with it

When you are in a player run corporation, you can place items up for sale on the market that only fellow corporation members can buy.  This moves much of the load of transactions on the market from public availability to private only.

Anything that can be sold, can be sold in this fashion - restricting items to only your fellow members.  So things like commodities and minerals, through T4 fittings are often bought and sold ONLY to and from fellow members of a corporation - why sell a gun to someone who may/will shoot you with it?  That's their logic.

The downside is that it removes all that stuff from the general market, making it look very lean and prices "open to the public" tend to be a lot higher than internal prices.  This can and does cripple up newer player's abilities to participate in a more competitive fashion.  It takes months to build up the ability to make many of the higher tier items and it is difficult to get some of the materials, as well as access to the kernels to learn how to make things.  Being as more senior players are in player corporations, they don't make nor sell much on the open market.

That's his point. 

"Over time" it may adjust but it will take time and many new gamers don't have much patience.  6 months working up to build what is in demand, I hit this in a convo in eve on the topic "either join or go without... thanks but I'm not into being forced to join groups I don't know anything about.  Maybe I'll try it later..."

Again, it is slowly being addressed but it will take time.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Marak Mocam wrote:
Omen wrote:

Curious where i can learn more about the topic since im unfamiliar with it

When you are in a player run corporation, you can place items up for sale on the market that only fellow corporation members can buy.  This moves much of the load of transactions on the market from public availability to private only.

Anything that can be sold, can be sold in this fashion - restricting items to only your fellow members.  So things like commodities and minerals, through T4 fittings are often bought and sold ONLY to and from fellow members of a corporation - why sell a gun to someone who may/will shoot you with it?  That's their logic.

The downside is that it removes all that stuff from the general market, making it look very lean and prices "open to the public" tend to be a lot higher than internal prices.  This can and does cripple up newer player's abilities to participate in a more competitive fashion.  It takes months to build up the ability to make many of the higher tier items and it is difficult to get some of the materials, as well as access to the kernels to learn how to make things.  Being as more senior players are in player corporations, they don't make nor sell much on the open market.

That's his point. 

"Over time" it may adjust but it will take time and many new gamers don't have much patience.  6 months working up to build what is in demand, I hit this in a convo in eve on the topic "either join or go without... thanks but I'm not into being forced to join groups I don't know anything about.  Maybe I'll try it later..."

Again, it is slowly being addressed but it will take time.

thanks for the clarification.  For some reason I dont think this type of mechanic is as drastic as the OP believes, not because im able to find what I want at an affordable price (far from it actually) but I think theyre trying to persuade people into forming large corporations or at least self sustaining smaller corporations.  If you're not part of this or not willing to work with these corps its just going to take a little bit more effort.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

fixing the market will take time. as a player who has been here since closed beta & then when the game first went live the market has gotten much better. works is still needed & only time can fix it. but i do think it is moving forward.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

fixing the market will take time. as a player who has been here since closed beta & then when the game first went live the market has gotten much better. works is still needed & only time can fix it. but i do think it is moving forward.


Hmm ... hmm.

To be honest: i don't know why it needs (much) time for a better developed market. The knowledge and production capacity among the players is already existent. And i can't believe that the market improved since beta.
Maybe to a certain degree but crashed then to an empty landscape? All i know is: when i started playing Perp as one of the EvE refugees in the last week of june - the market was completely deserted. Totally empty. 
And it was horrible for me as a new player. An empty market leads to the impression of a dead game. The worst that can happen for a still young game.
I don't know if i would be still here if i didn't met a very helpful advanced "black market tech dealer" in my early days.
You remember Sequer prices of 1m NIC or Termises of over 2m or Assault Bots of 800k?. Of course since late june the market has improved - and that's good! But you can get either T1 or T4 stuff. T2 and T3 is almost not accessable via the market.
My own storage is full of a mixed bunch of modules that i'm willing to sell on market. It won't happen since I'm avoiding the 10% taxes (with my current EPs) like the devil avoids the holy water. The majority of bought/sold stuff is done via direct trade. Avoiding the taxes - and therefor the market - completely.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

I totally agree, the 'corp only' mentality is crippling to a new player.
Sure, *some* stuff you can find pretty easily, other things are nigh-on impossible to find. I invite you to try and buy a T4 ERP, t1 medium aux accumulator, various T4 nexus modules, medium UDC or magnedart ammo, or *any* evasive module above tech 1. Those are just off the top of my head
You will be waiting for weeks to find some of these items, if you manage to find them at all.

And the answer to new players is what, wait for an indefinate period of time until a hypothetical independant producer decides to build the specific module they desperately need?
Or is it intended game design that players have to periodically join up to megacorps, raid them for items, and leave afterwards?

Oh wait, I get it. You're supposed to open a second account and eat kernels for 6 months so you can build the items yourself, that's a fantastic selling point for the game. Sure to have players signing up in droves eager to enjoy some of that action.


This whole, "Oh we don't want to sell guns to our competition because we can have an edge on them" is downright naive. News flash: Your enemies are producing their own T4 gear, they don't *need* to buy yours. The only effect your closed market has is frustrating the almighty god out of any independant or new player. You and your competition still pewpew each other with T4 gear regardless of your corps closed market.

Kick closed corp markets out the door tbh, and watch new players stick around instead of leaving due to a barely breathing economy

14 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2011-08-14 08:57:44)

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

well ok look at this way. my corp NEX has now many builders & producers. the demand for higher tier items is VERY high just in our corp. Now when we have over stocked some items they do get put on the market. i suspect this is common for all corps in game. some corps im sure ban out right selling high tire items on the open market but those like NEX who are happy to sell on the open are having trouble just meeting the demands of our own corp let alone the those out side of our corp.
This is why it is taking so long for higher tire items to be available on the open market.
Demand is very high but the ability to fill that demand is lower than what you might think.  And this will not change untill perpetuum get alpha only indy corps whos main goal is to fill the market. And that will be hard untill more epi flows onto the market to meet demand.

another thing to keep in mind is the amount of time & money needed to build the high tire items is alot.

there are so many factors that go into the open market & whats available on it its not funny lol. Yes it is important to have the thriving economy. but its non to easy to do smile

as for taking away the closed corp market. it might solve a few things. but it will go back to the way the game used to be done.

@ all the new people in game that might not be in a corp or to those in small corps. Work on getting contacts with people that are builders they are there & many are happy to do trade (many builders i know hate using the market coz they dont like 0.01 nic wars tongue )

@ those who are in bigger corps. go ask your corp builders what they can do you might be surprised smile

I feel 1 way to get the market fixed is for this game to have more market traders. Who buy & sell not just in items they themselves build but who trade in a far wider array of items. i think professional traders might be what this game lacks. And with so many holes to be filled a nice profit to be made as well smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Even if there was no internal corp market, players would still give and sell cheap to their guildies just like in all mmos.  It only makes it a little more convenient in perp.

The normal market will grow as more players get subbed.

16 (edited by Snowman 2011-08-14 17:17:42)

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Corps dont sell much because there isnt much need for money once your completly self sufficient.  By now I'd imagine that with nothing much really to spend their money on corps could buy the entire market several times over.

So as soon as there are more NIC sink's corps will start looking for other ways to make money.

I guess the ability to pay an amount of nic to raise the stabalisation on SAP's in the coming update is meant to be a NIC sink, but I doubt any corp would ever pay those fee's

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Snowman wrote:

I guess the ability to pay an amount of nic to raise the stabalisation on SAP's in the coming update is meant to be a NIC sink, but I doubt any corp would ever pay those fee's

And if those corps start to sell gear after paying those fees I am sure they will want more out of their tier gear.

So the fees could have a bad affect on the market too. It is a tug-of-war when it comes to sinks and markets.

Lets hope if they do pay the fees it is worth it and doesn't raise prices on the t2-t4 market.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

I think the problem with the market is a complicated one. T1 items are abundant on the market because they are easy to produce, easy to gather ore for, and easy to collect via rat drops. T3+ modules require quite a bit of kernal research. Really though, most independent producers are unable to get enough research to start prototyping out these items. Most of the people in game right now with high research have been funded or carried by their corp -- so it's only natural that the modules they produce are going to be for the corp.

It may sound like keeping things within corps is a detriment to the market, and it is. But that's less by player choice and more by the difficulty of kernal research. The only alternative now are individual producers putting in extreme time and effort to gain themselves the research needed to sell on the market. When a single kernal that you need 2000 of costs 250k NIC, that's months and months of work for a single person -- for one single kernal tree.

19 (edited by Syndic 2011-08-14 19:28:10)

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Thats ok, most corps took half a year of hardcore grinding to level up their technology trees. No reason why 1-man-army should have it easier then 100-man-army.

P.S.

I don't see why its a big problem to cut into internal corp markets. Make an alt, join a corp, buy stuff from that corp. Problem solved, and the best part is rates are usually somewhat better then the normal market. Win-win situation. lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Syndic wrote:

Make an alt, join a corp, buy stuff from that corp. Problem solved, and the best part is rates are usually somewhat better then the normal market. Win-win situation. lol

Exactly. Only a matter of time before leeches and turncoats even things out. Capitalism doesn't work without cheats and liars, anyway. We will have our open market. big_smile

21 (edited by Dazamin 2011-08-14 21:51:34)

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Syndic wrote:

I don't see why its a big problem to cut into internal corp markets. Make an alt, join a corp, buy stuff from that corp. Problem solved, and the best part is rates are usually somewhat better then the normal market. Win-win situation. lol


My app will be in shortly. You commies have cheaper stuff than us right?

22 (edited by Winter Solstice 2011-08-14 22:44:40)

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

Well, there's been a kernel nerk (droprate) yah?  Makes things harder for newer folks.

Un-nerf kernel drop rates?  (holds out bucket to collect older corps' tears) ... well, I think there's a reason for that beyond personal subjective ones, so keep it as it is.

Instead could add a higher % of CT's (or even just prototypes) to more caches, or as mission rewards?  Another possibility to fix the production speed issue being choked up by slow protoyping advancement without making permanent impacts on specific toons (namely, prototypers).  That's also something that can be done 'inch by inch' instead of going full blast on global drop rates, and would add another benefit to missioning.

----
I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

how many of you out there are acutally producing T4?

It's easy to say 'sell the extra' but your not priviy to the production lines of those 'unnamed closed corps', so it's impossible to say they if they have extra, or how many they have to stock to be extra.

Simply, PVP corps don't produce for the open market. If they have 'enough' T4 lasers, they shut down the line and start making something else, when you have enough of those, you start a new line.

These items are continually being lost to PVE and PVP, so there is never 'enough' or 'extra'.

Players in new pvp corps are just going to have to wait until the industrial corps have their production up, because we DO produce for the market.

How many non-corp sponsored players can afford to fit T4 for PVP roams anyway? Not many, and certainly not for long.

So, when we do start producing, its going to be the PVE's buying, and a small group of them too that are able to afford it. There are T4 medium lasers on the market now, if the demand was that high, they would be sold out. Reality is that after a few weeks of a new items reaching the market, the majority of those looking to buy it will, and the remaining stock will sit for weeks as ones and twos sell as new players earn NIC.

Members of those closed corps work hard to ensure they have a supply of items, mining, ratting, producing, they aren't getting anything for free. It's stupid to think they should just open thier storages and let goods flow into the open market, where players that havn't contributed anything get the advantage of their hard work.

Tl;DR - The T4 'public' market isn't very large. Sure players 'want' T4 but those able to repeatedly purchase T4 is very small. If T4 was more readily available, the PVE crowd would buy it once, then the market would slow to a trickle of 'oops' and a few bots a week getting to the new EP level.

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

market tax. it is better for me to sell something for 40k a piece to a corp mate than on the open market for 45k a piece. I still make more and don't need to waste EPs.

the market tax should be halved and that's it.

25 (edited by Purgatory 2011-08-15 09:13:18)

Re: Market... or lack thereof.

I don't see where this lack of T4 is, most T4 items are on the market. Within the next half a week or so i'll have all T4 ERPs, weapon stabs and evasive modules on market.