Topic: Spec. Ops

Spec. Ops Stealth / Cloaking Module
First I want to say that maskers in the game are less than effective when smart people run signal detectors.

The current Special Operations robots in the game are more support / logistics bots rather than truly special operations. I like the concept of Spec. Ops robots that have capabilities reserved for only them, the current robot bonuses does help this but I suggest making modules that only the Spec. Ops class of robots can use. For example why is the Castel the best choice for a scout / detector? This role should be at its best in a Spec. Ops robot.  Sure every bot should be able to boost their detection strength, but the Spec. Ops robots should be well versed in the scouting / intelligence field so they should have added bonuses.

Here is an Idea for creating a Spec. Ops “only” module that makes Spec. Ops more of a Spec. Ops role than a support role in fleet battles.

Stealth Module
“this module encapsulates the robot in a field that creates an illusion of invisibility at long range, however powering this field inhibits all other weapon systems for the fields duration. Target locking, signal detection and robot speed are all effected in the duration of this field.”

Only one of these modules can be equipped. Only Spec. Ops robots can equip this module.

[[[ EXAMPLE ]]]

Standard Stealth Module
Parameters
Engine
CPU use                    75 TF
Reactor use                25 RP

Slots
Type                        Active
Slot                        Head

General
Mass                        50.0 KG
Packed volume            0.10 U

Specific
Accumulator consumption    50.00 AP
Cycle time                    10.00 sec
Speed reduction                25 %
Signal detection reduction     10 %
Deactivation distance        200m

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[T2] Stealth Module
Parameters
Engine
CPU use                    75 TF
Reactor use            25 RP

Slots
Type                        Active
Slot                        Head

General
Mass                        50.0 KG
Packed volume            0.10 U

Specific
Accumulator consumption    50.00 AP
Cycle time                    10.00 sec
Speed reduction                20 %
Signal detection reduction     7.5 %
Deactivation distance        175m

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[T3] Stealth Module
Parameters
Engine
CPU use                    75 TF
Reactor use            25 RP

Slots
Type                        Active
Slot                        Head

General
Mass                        50.0 KG
Packed volume            0.10 U

Specific
Accumulator consumption    50.00 AP
Cycle time                    10.00 sec
Speed reduction                15 %
Signal detection reduction     5 %
Deactivation distance        150m

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[T4] Stealth Module
Parameters
Engine
CPU use                    75 TF
Reactor use            25 RP

Slots
Type                        Active
Slot                        Head

General
Mass                        50.0 KG
Packed volume            0.10 U

Specific
Accumulator consumption    50.00 AP
Cycle time                    10.00 sec
Speed reduction                10 %
Signal detection reduction     2.5 %
Deactivation distance        125m

*The deactivation distance is how far the equipped robot can come to another robot before the field becomes ineffective at creating the illusion of invisibility. This applies to all NPC, and robots not in the equipped robots current squad.

I think this module can be implemented with little challenges to coding, and would make Spec. Ops robots fit the role of Spec. Ops better than they do now.More Spec. Ops suggestions to come

this may come down to some thing as simple as why do Spec. Ops bots not have the highest detection and masking values ?? Is a troiar not more adept at electronics than a castel:|? this system makes little sense to me when mechs and lights are used as detector and forward scouts over Spec. Ops bots. lights fill a simple role as small fast ships with light damage. mechs fill another role as the damage dealing core of an attack force. Spec. Ops should fill the role of recon / scout and specialized warfare support that IMO is the nature of the classes

Re: Spec. Ops

This seems like the same mechanic as signal masking, except without a counter. How would this be countered, and if your vision is that it can't be, how would that be balanced?

Re: Spec. Ops

Just a thought about game balance.  Lots of people cite it as reasoning for or against one idea or another.  If fact, in an MMO where anyone can train any skill, balance really isn't an issue because, if something is more powerful one can simply implement the same items on their behalf to deal with the opponent.  We're not like WoW (which I'm absolutely NOT here to bash, btw) where there are clearly defined class limits that prevent a player's certain character from using e-peen super weapon x or pwnurfacej00n00bz nuke spell y.

So I say +1 to this.

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Re: Spec. Ops

the reason to have betst stealth on spec ops bot, and best detection on combat bot should be obvious.

both on the same bot, which can also field weapons, would create an all-around-bot, which the small ewars already had before the sensoring and speed balancing.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Spec. Ops

True, Johnny, but if this is basically the same mechanic as signal masking, then do we need something that does the same thing but without a counter? That was my question, is how does this module make for better game play then signal masking?

The idea of stealth bots I like, I think the assaults were lots of fun before they got reverted.

If the spec' op bot gets this exclusively, what happens to the assaults? And what type of operations would the spec op be involved in?

Being a ecm/demob type of bot, and a light bot at that, they are already difficult to hit by medium weapons. Being able to stealth in would remove 50% of the time that the target would have to counter the ewar. Basically you stealth in, ecm, demob and drain a mech before they have any chance to counter.

This is similar to the whole stun-lock-rogue mechanic. Using stealth to get first blood I like, and being able to counter it by being paranoid and fitting for it, is good. Not to mention that again, this is the perfect mining ganker tool. It uses almost no AP running, so when they get 125m away from a miner, they drop it, drain, demob, and kill even sheilded rivelers. That's just too much, and actually, it doesn't say you even have to drop the module to attack.

Re: Spec. Ops

Since your post, taken as a whole is a very valid, coherent argument, I'm going to edit it a little to bend it to my favor and hope no one bothers to read the original.  Then I'll follow it up with my agreement with your modified statement.

Arga wrote:

True, Johnny, we need something that does the same thing...without a counter...this module make for better game play...

The idea of stealth bots I like, I think the assaults were lots of fun before they got reverted.

...the spec' op bot gets this exclusively...

Being a ecm/demob type of bot, and a light bot at that, they are already difficult to hit by medium weapons. Being able to stealth in would remove 50% of the time that the target would have to counter the ewar. Basically you stealth in, ecm, demob and drain a mech before they have any chance to counter...I like...is good.

...this is the perfect mining ganker tool. It uses almost no AP running, so when they get 125m away from a miner, they drop it, drain, demob, and kill even sheilded rivelers.

Yes Arga, I like the stealth bot and I think the module is very useful in the situations you describe above.  Thanks for being so supportive of this fantastic idea.  I never expected you to be so willing to turn around your seemingly negative initial post with this new positive one, but you're endlessly full of good surprises.

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Re: Spec. Ops

No.

There's no reason to have this module in the game. The range is too short, the speed loss is too low.

EWAR bots are EWAR bots. They're supposed to be great at EWAR and difficult for a non-scout to detect. You can use them as stealth recon (we've done it a couple times, they can generally evade stuff that can see them without too much trouble) or in their normal role.

Lights as scouts with detectors fit makes perfect sense. A short range bot with little armor, low dps and few slots with speed equivalent to a mech is not a viable option for in your face pvp except in large numbers (how we use them) or as a poor man's tacklebot -- ewar should be slower, btw, and mechs should be worse at hitting light class bots (lower surface area). Scout is the only role they're best at and, frankly, a mech does it better thanks to being able to combat fit while wearing a detector.

Bots in general need love relative to mechs. A bit more oomph and they'll be just right. Twenty more points of masking on the assault and 15kph more base speed on the light and we're close to bingo.   

Johnny EvilGuy wrote:

Just a thought about game balance.  Lots of people cite it as reasoning for or against one idea or another.  If fact, in an MMO where anyone can train any skill, balance really isn't an issue because, if something is more powerful one can simply implement the same items on their behalf to deal with the opponent.  We're not like WoW (which I'm absolutely NOT here to bash, btw) where there are clearly defined class limits that prevent a player's certain character from using e-peen super weapon x or pwnurfacej00n00bz nuke spell y.

So I say +1 to this.

This argument is awful.

No, that's not how a pvp game works. When you make it so that one fit is awesome and the best option for doing something, it becomes the _only_ option for doing something because everyone else will do that thing in that fit and you will either lose to them or change to the fit that is overpowered.

If missiles ignored los and had the longest range and best DPS no one would use lasers or blasters unless they liked dying or only played pve -- and even then they'd eventually switch to the obviously superior weapon.

Everyone else will eventually do it is balance through eliminating all choice.

8 (edited by Johnny EvilGuy 2011-08-13 01:49:09)

Re: Spec. Ops

Thanks for sharing your opinions!

There's nothing wrong with wanting diversification in a game and I see where you're coming from in that respect.  Nevertheless, MMOs are very hard to balance fairly.  Even mature games that don't frequently introduce new content end up with an "overpowered" something or other.  Is that justification to give up attempting to balance things out fairly?  Of course not!

However, I fail to see where this idea falls apart with respect to balance.  Sure some aspects are worth minor tweaking, but I see that our OP is attempting to introduce a new idea with some specific numbers to kick around.  I doubt that all the ideas suggested here will be put into use by the dev team, but I can't see anything at all wrong with this one adding a few minor modifications.  There's infinite flexibility in a sandbox.

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Re: Spec. Ops

It's not a good idea because it's really just a request for a version of sensor maskers that hide you better and do less damage to your speed. EVE cloaks drop you to 10% of your speed, gobble fitting and won't let you warp or activate modules while you have them active (unless it's a covops cloak on a covops ship, in which case you get to ninja around on ships with all the tank of butter except for uuuuungh the Pilgrim).

If you want maskers to work better, ask for maskers to get a slight buff. I wouldn't mind! But a module where the enemy has to be 100m away to detect is really just a request for invisible gate scouts so that they don't need to be replaced.

Re: Spec. Ops

I'd be okay with a radar-only cloak that can operate only while standing still. So, hidden to radar but not actually invisible (hide in the bushes!). And disabled completely if you start moving at all. Could be used in addition to maskers, but no additional masking from the cloak itself.

Re: Spec. Ops

AeonThePiglet wrote:

EVE cloaks drop you to 10% of your speed, gobble fitting and won't let you warp or activate modules while you have them active (unless it's a covops cloak on a covops ship, in which case you get to ninja around on ships with all the tank of butter except for uuuuungh the Pilgrim).

You know we're talking about equipment ideas in Perpetuum, right?

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Re: Spec. Ops

You need something over time that increases forcing it to shut off. Else I could sit 200m off a station all day and just keep eyes on it. I can see using this module to make roaming easier, but not spying and camping undetectable forever.

Re: Spec. Ops

Kamikazie wrote:

You need something over time that increases forcing it to shut off. Else I could sit 200m off a station all day and just keep eyes on it. I can see using this module to make roaming easier, but not spying and camping undetectable forever.

ewar with signal masker

Re: Spec. Ops

Arilou wrote:

I'd be okay with a radar-only cloak that can operate only while standing still. So, hidden to radar but not actually invisible (hide in the bushes!). And disabled completely if you start moving at all. Could be used in addition to maskers, but no additional masking from the cloak itself.

I like the idea of not showing up on landmarks at all, but how about being able to target the bot if you see it, and maybe just giving the bot a 50% debuff or something, along with slower targeting lock time and reduced health. You could also limit module use to assault/certain bot types so as to prevent massive mech *** gangs showing up out of nowhere.  This could open the door to "gank" type stealth bots, that could maybe win small gang fights if they pick the right target/moment to strike, but will get OMGWTFBBQed if they are spotted since they can't run away and have reduced HP.

This would also make them ideal scouts.

Re: Spec. Ops

I don't know much about signal masking/detection in this game, but I do not like the idea. Either you force some cycle that periodicaly disables the effect of the module, or you prohibit the bot with the module to equip weapons/other ewar (becomes no more than hidden eyes).

there's been a hell of a complaint stream about cloaks in EVE always. proper stealth is hard to do in these games. it's either OP or not good enough :-)

Re: Spec. Ops

perpetuum stealth is weak - the counters are easier, and you are visible if you lock someone (dunno if the bug with the secondary lock is still there)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

17

Re: Spec. Ops

I have read many of the comments that were made about my post, some constructive some not. I would like to say that in my first post that this module would only be used by Spec. ops class robots so there are a total of 6 bots in game that would be able to use them 3 light and 3 Mech class bots.

Any bot can fit a masker and try to hide, that is not what I want out of this topic. I want the Developers to introduce modules that are class based, to make specialization “special”. The other way to go about this is to give masking | cloaking bonus to Spec. ops robots but I think using the module and making it only useable by the Spec. ops class robots will add more depth and functionality to the class. 

Examples of scouts sitting on gates and stations is understandable but if the module works as I described you will have to be sitting in a light ewar (~1.2 mill ish bot) or a mech ewar (~5 – 6 mill ish bot) these are not cheap bots and would be wastefull to use them as gate bait scouts “IMO”. But im sure people will do whatever they please.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Arga 2011-08-12 19:02:10

This seems like the same mechanic as signal masking, except without a counter. How would this be countered, and if your vision is that it can't be, how would that be balanced?


To this I say we can use interference modules to scramble the cloaking bots sensors making them reappear. This may need some adjusting from the current useless state of the interference modules but you could jump to a Teleport fire off one of these rounds and anything with in 500 to 1Km will be un cloaked.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AeonThePiglet wrote:

EVE cloaks drop you to 10% of your speed, gobble fitting and won't let you warp or activate modules while you have them active (unless it's a covops cloak on a covops ship, in which case you get to ninja around on ships with all the tank of butter except for uuuuungh the Pilgrim).

I don’t intend to fight comparisons of Petpetuum to EVE, I played EVE for years and got board of the game. This is not a specific request for cloaking, it is a request to make the Spec ops class of robots unique to other robots and give them modules that benifit them so far there are no tuners in game that benefit Spec. ops robots. You can sub cloaking module for module that gives decreased ewar cycle time and increased effectiveness if you want.

There are 3 light 3 assault 3 mech and 3 H mech combat class robots that use standard robot control skills, these six compared to those 12 should have modules that only they can or benefit by using. The industrial class robots all have modules that really only benefit them by using IE harvesters,  miners, industrial tuners etc. IF the Spec. ops class had an Ewar tuner then I may not be making
this post but they don’t.

Train skills ? yes but you can do that for any class.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   
Maskers could accomplish the same thing if they were limited to Spec. ops and given a small boost, my base complaint here is that we need to do more to increase the diversity of the robots in game. Im waiting patiently for the new planned assaults I hope I hope there going to be useful.

Re: Spec. Ops

Sounds like grate idea to me, i loved to sneak up on people!

Re: Spec. Ops

Rico Rage wrote:

I like the idea of not showing up on landmarks at all, but how about being able to target the bot if you see it, and maybe just giving the bot a 50% debuff or something, along with slower targeting lock time and reduced health. You could also limit module use to assault/certain bot types so as to prevent massive mech *** gangs showing up out of nowhere.  This could open the door to "gank" type stealth bots, that could maybe win small gang fights if they pick the right target/moment to strike, but will get OMGWTFBBQed if they are spotted since they can't run away and have reduced HP.

These would be great fun. Proper shock gankers. Total glass with a solid alpha punch. Full commitment.