Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Arga wrote:
Crepitus wrote:

I would really *LOVE* for some of you "EP makes no difference" people to explain how it's possible that someone who has 5x as much EP as you isn't stronger in spades.

Cerp,

Yes of course EP matters. If it didn't there would be no reason to even earn EP; so I am agreeing with you that EP _CAN_ make a difference.

This arguement has been gone over 100 times, probably a million times if you count the eve forums.

What you can't expect, since this game is an MMO and not a console game, is to be equal on day 1.

Skill costs go up for each level, as you know, and the EP is dependant on which corp and spark you choose.

The idea of competing is valid regardless of if you talking about PVP, Industry, or Mining.

First, the math.

Starting EP: 20,000
EP per day:    1,440
EP per 30 days :  43,200

Total EP at 30 days: 63,200

Which means, that anyone 30 days ahead of you will never have more than 63,200 EP. I'm not going to talk about EA accounts, it was a special promotion and there is a fixed number of accounts with that EP bonus, and the general principal of Skill gap closing remains valid with EA account, its just a slightly longer time.

Which means at day 1, a combat pilot with 30 days more EP is likely to have Skill level 5 in a number of appropriate skills, which will make them much more effective than the new pilot.

To keep the example balanced, lets assume that you follow the EXACT same progression path, that is you took the same skills as this other pilot (which never happens, but this is just to show how the gap closes).


Now, at day 30 you have the same skills as that pilot did, but they now have 43,200 more EP spent. Lets see what they can get in combat skills starting from level 5. This is also assuming they didn't spend any EP on assignments, market, etc - or that you spent the same EP up to this point.

Advanced weapons (Medium any style) level 7 : 7,392 EP +6% damage
Rapid Fire from level 5 to level 7: 6,881 + 6% firing speed
Target Analysis level 5 to level 7: 7,392 + 2% damage
Advanced Robotics Level 5 to   7: 15,593 * 2 robot bonus
Crititcal Hit from level 5 to lev 7: 11,088 + 2% critical hit
Sharp shooting from 5 to lev 6: 2,430 + 3% distance

With 3,512 EP toward sharpshooting 7.

Now, at day 30, I would say with all those additional skills that they would still have a distinct advantage over you.
*Don't worry about skill selection, this isn't about which skills to choose, its about how the gap closes.

Now, here we are at day 60. You have all the above skills. But the other player has now spent 43,200 (+3 512left over) on skills.

Critical hit from 7 to 8             : 10,752 +1% critical
Sharpshooting from 6 to 8       : 10,733 + 6% range
Advanced Weapons from 7 to 8:  7,168 + 3 % damage
Rapid fire from level 7 to lev 8 : 6,672 + 3% weapon speed
Target Analysis from level 7 to 8: 7,168 +1 % damage

With 4119 EP left over

So, still an advantage, but the gap is closing enough that the difference is 2 or 3 weapon cycles.

Now, finally at day 90, you have all the above skills, and your opponent has...

Advanced Weapon 10 + 6% dmg: 32,480
Sharpshooting 9 + 3% range: 9,112

With 5,727 left over but the above skills are more than that for the next level.

Here we are, you and your opponent are just 1 volley difference at most. Because no EP was spent in non combat stuff, you still both can only fit the same gear, so at this point your 100% competitive, and the only difference now is the PVP skill.

Yes 90 days is a LONG time, but the idea that you can NEVER catch up is totally false.

TL;DR - On the flipside, it also doesn' seem fair that someone only playing the game for a few weeks should be able to gank me if I have been playing for 45 days.

As you have stated, this argument has been made numerous times in this game and others... and as is inevitably true, if the user fails to alter his perception and his need for instant gratification this game may not be for him.

52 (edited by Andrew Redburn 2011-03-30 09:09:34)

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Since I am lacking ideas how to finish my coding at work, I'll spent some thoughts on this as well.

Since I play online games almost since they actually exist and having played numerous MMORPGs, including several years of EVE Online, I tell you that EP actually does matter. It might not be that much in large scale battles (>100 vs 100) but it is a big difference in small skirmishes. Not only do you last longer (more Armor, more Resists, more Energy, more dmage, etc...), but you also are able to fill several roles which means your small group of players is more flexible and can adapt faster to happenings.

Imho EP is the key to be pro in any game like this. Of course you can still be a dumbass and have no clue why faster speed might be good ;-), but in lots of situations more EP gives you that little edge to succeed in what ever.

Having said that, I like having an advantage as long time subscriber, since it comforts my playstyle and looking at high EP numbers makes me giggle ;-), but I would also support the idea that beginners get f.e. 20% more EP the first 3 months or can buy faster EP gain for a certain amount of time or amount of EP, depending on the average EP of ingame players.
Lots of other MMOs (in fact any free to play i have seen yet) offer that.

On the other hand the game is just 5 months yet so the difference is not that much (just take a look at the calculations above) as it would be starting all over with EVE these days for example, so I do not think such increased EP gain is needed for newcomers at this stage of the game, but might be in a year or two.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Its best to keep some things simple, and it can't get much simpler than 1 point per minute.

If there are balance changes to be made, they should be done with particular skills, like the changes to Insurance and just recently to repairing.

For example, making 'General Firing' cheaper per level would give newer players more fire power sooner while the refunded EP would only effect a small fraction of a vetern players EP.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

I haven't checked on this thread in a week or so.

The people that played beta and started an account opening day have such a massive advantage that it seems insurmountable. Being forced to play a game for 3 months to try to even it out seems a little steep of a penalty, especially when we NEED new players. I would change my original idea to being able to purchase the 1 months worth of EP for new players 1 time, (Or w/e it was for the beta starters).

I think that should help even things out a little sooner and people can still specialize and not feel so useless. (Nav 10 in PVP is a MUST and it's 20k+ EP alone).

55 (edited by Arga 2011-04-01 05:43:38)

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Your making the assumption that being able to buy EP would be good for the game.

It would not.

If Perpetuum was a theme park game, you could sell EP all day long and no one would care, but it is not a theme park game; it is a persistant world. If you remove the concept of what you do in the game matters, by letting players buy their way to an advantage, there is no game left.

If a player is not interested with game time having real meaning, World of Tanks has a lot of the same mechanics as perpetuum, and they can be on equal footing for a few micro transactions. New players will stay because they see the potential in the game, not because of EP bribes. In 12 months, after the game has matured, lowering the COST of the beginner skills will help new players become effective quicker, without negating the time and effort existing players have put in the game.

56 (edited by Legedric Warstrike 2011-04-01 07:18:39)

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Being able to buy EP (in ANY way) would destroy the gameplay, at least for me...

Of course there is and always will be a gap in EP between vets and fresh players but in my opinion this is a long term problem and nothing that has to be looked into within the next ~6 months.

In my opinion a simple solution would be to raise the starting EP (20k) per month the game exists by 10-20k EP. As a "real" EP month is roughly 40k EP it won't close the gap completely so the vets will still have an advantage (which they should have!).

Another solution would be to implement something like doubling the EP for new players per minute until they reach a certain amount (let's say 70-80% of the total EP available since launch). But in this case I agree to Arga when he says: "Its best to keep some things simple, and it can't get much simpler than 1 point per minute."

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Another option, as the game progresses, is to give starting players more starting skill; for instance they can start with Nav 3 or 4 for combat and Indy bot 3.

Starting EP is a chance for players to customize and get invested in their character, maybe 20K isn't the right number; but starting EP shouldn't be a tool to adjust game play. Let me go further and say EP shouldn't be a dev tool for balancing the game; which includes starting EP, EP rate, and EP 'entitlement' issues.

Maybe 25k starting would make for a better starting experience, that's worth thinking about. Of course any change would be to all active accounts, so everyone would get the 5K more after the patch. But while that 5K may make a big immeditate difference to a starting account, it only shaves a few days off that 45-60 day wait for IndyBot 10.

TL;DR - EP isn't the right tool for managing new player experiences. Starting extension levels, starting EP, and/or skill levels are the right tools. Changes should be universally applied regardless of account start date.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Or just leave it how it is. Extensions increase to a 10x multiplier at level 10. That means you could have bought level 1 to 5 and MORE with that much EP. New players can catch up. It takes a month or two of EP and they're there. All the time you need to increase your skill though.

EP won't win you a fight. It helps but you have to do the right things in order to win.

The Game

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Of course, in the long term a few EP more or less at character creation isn't going to win or lose fights, but if 22k instead of 20k EP makes the starting experience better than that is nothing but good. One reason why more starting EP could be needed is the Arhke nerf, your basic bot is now less powerful, and as new players point out it takes forever to kill 10 drones.

It has been a few months since I was new to the game, and Alex for you it has been year(s) as well as the dev staff. And with the changes to the starting game, it could be time to evaluate that 20k number. Or, as I said, maybe give players a few more starting extension levels instead of EP, niether of those is going to really effect the long term game play (and any change should be retro active on all accounts anyway).

Tl:dr - Skill and starting EP changes should be about the new experience, not so much about catching up or the long-term pvp aspects of the game. Thanks for helping clarify my thoughts alex.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Tbh, I think every player should start with Nav 5. That way its at the end of the soft-curve before the "overdrive" starts, and it indicates to new players that it's the most important extension in the game. Which; lets face it, it is.

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Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

OP's just a victim of cherry picking from the game description. Focusing on "open PvP," "single shard" and "customizable mechs" might make it look like a giant, non-stop MMOFPS. But all that "time-based character development" and "player-controlled economy" stuff has gotta mean something, right?

And frankly, every argument for instant EP options or limitless remaps is really just an argument to remove EP completely. EP was added to PO to provide exactly the effects it currently has.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

I 100% agree with you Arilou!  You pretty much summed it up and pointed out that expectations were way out of line with reality.  Perp is a great game and like any MMO it has grinding, slow periods, even times when it's better to log out and do something in real life.  Treated correctly though, it can be a lot of fun.

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Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

back to your grave zombie ...

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

LOL a fine piece of thread necromancy. Besides, I think monoclegate was pretty clear about what would happen to a game when players even get a whiff of P2P.

Doubletap.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

/facepalm

since this isnt a 1vs1 game

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Larger islands.
Territorial control.
POSes.
People should have their own home, not rented outposts. This is a hotfix for the topic problem imo.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

cash for ep = unsub for me

im pretty new too.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

'Perfect' seems to be perfect at one thing, and one thing only:  A Perfect spoiled brat.

I want to be God NOW, I want to win all battles NOW,  I never want to loose.  And I want to do it NOW.

Perfect, go away.  Go play Hello Kitty, it suits you.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Just to point out that buying Ep will never happen as it is like buying premium items on other MMOs and unlike some other companies the Dev team here have stated that they will never offer anything ingame for RL cash that is game changing / will give someone an advantage over others so this whole argument is a mute point. The op said he played eve since Beta so obviously he has no idea what it is like to be a low skilled character playing in a game where nearly eveyone else has higher skills than you.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Hugh Ruka wrote:

back to your grave zombie ...

Though I can't claim responsibility for bringing this up, I think this thread is relevant even today and worthy of discussion at length.  Times have changed and new people have arrived to bring in perspectives not previously available.  Discuss onward, I say!

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Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Would be interesting to read perfect's reply to this topic five months after he created his account, but it looks like he moved on.

Descent
Selling quality ore since 2011

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Johnny EvilGuy wrote:
Hugh Ruka wrote:

back to your grave zombie ...

Though I can't claim responsibility for bringing this up, I think this thread is relevant even today and worthy of discussion at length.  Times have changed and new people have arrived to bring in perspectives not previously available.  Discuss onward, I say!

by coincidence I read a similar forum thread on EVE-O forums yesterday. it seems this topic comes up regularly in games where progression is not dependent on your online time.

seems people don't get how the system works and don't see the benefits. most of the 'firestarters' do equal EP/SP with XP/level in WoW and similar. so discussing anything based on a false premise is not productive.

73 (edited by Johnny EvilGuy 2011-08-12 17:06:38)

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Well Hugh, I must admit that you argue a good point.  You're right, there simply is no fair way to make a comparison.  The only other possible value here might be to help highlight just that very point.

Then again, I think you won the Internets here today.

Edit:  By the way, what -are- you doing reading the EVE forums?  That place is so full of angry people and trolls that carrying out rational discourse is nearly impossible without someone that has a horse-sized chin commenting about the door, falcon, T20, Hilmar e-mail, internal newsletters, or a boot.ini file.

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Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Crepitus is the roman god of flatulence .... whats up C its XyberViri from a long as time ago in the New Eden Radio channel.....

Really the only thing that matters in this game is NAV 10, beyond that you dont really need to raise skills unless you specifically know why your raising that specific skill, -OR- your specifically raising a skill because you need to fit a piece of equipment and have done the math and know where you need to be.

New players shouldn't shoot for a mech with in the first month, you can but you really shouldn't. you can get a effective assault/light on day 1 and in then in a month you could be in a mech.

Just remember to T2 fit a Assault your looking at like 3million NIC, thats if you can find most of what your looking for on sale or via artifact hunting.

T4 light mechs are going to cost you in the realm of 30million.

New players don't really have that sorta disposable income, i can't speak for com-u-corps because they pay for everything.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Oddly, T2 doesn't find its way onto the market very regularly. Although that may now change with the removal of esptitium, since the cost of making T2 previously was so high that it made sense to just up-produce it to T3 for a larger profit margin.

The more I think of it, the better that sounds. The issue with using T2 was always the price delta between T1 and T2 didn't make it worth only for the fitting, players would just suck-a-long with an empty slot or 1 tuner vs 2 until thier EP and wallet was high enough to fit T3.

Hmmm.

Remember that there's not such thing as used modules either, so purchasing a T2 for a fit, assuming you don't get asploded, you can sell it back to the market when your ready for T3.