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Like a poster before said, they are only in one slot of the green bots, so they drop a bit less 
Kinetic Hardners are used on a few bots which are very often used:
Kain
Tyrr's
to compensate for the tyrrs lack of kinetic resistance and kains lesser resistance.
I think Hunter's issue is that he wants to continue to get Epri products through recycling of massive NPC drops instead of going to Beta to mine the stuff in a more "hostile" and unsafe climate.
I think the devs are going in the right direction. Epri needs to be removed from T1 items to help bring the cost of these basic items down. Your items shouldn't cost more than the ship for T1!
actually, he's doing it on beta.
there you get medium drainer as regular loot, which is the best source of espitium from recycling, and probably universal hardeners as source for alligior.
AFAIK you get both from industrial NPC mechs and their escort EWAR Mechs that are easy to farm for kernels, plasma and ... epriton-products.
who needs to mine when you can get everything from recycling
Furthermore we also plan to replace all epriton based components in T1 modules. This and the above changes will allow for a much easier and competitive entry to the industrialist career.
This will in no way help new industrials but rather hurt other players pritty bad.
NOW:
Item contains materials X + Y + Z
if both buy the materials from the market via buy orders
New player have to compete old players through Extensions, NPC relations (and quality of factories if the old one has access to Beta)
If you remove material Z from the item leads to both need material X + Y
if both buy the materials from the market via buy orders
New player have to compete old players through Extensions, NPC relations (and quality of factories if the old one has access to Beta)
See what I mean? Changing the materials will do nothink for a new producer!
Further more removing high quality materials from T1 loot will make the "high quality recycling" extension useless as there are no high quality materials in anymore to recycle (0 stay 0 equal if you have the extension at 0 or 10).
In addition, even if this might be only a small part of the market, there is no counter anymore to Beta Eprition. Nothink which might adjust the fantasy price of Beta miners for Epriton.
If they try to sell it expensive now Alpha players can chose to "farm" their Espit, Aligor aso. though recycling. Without this option Beta Eprition can be sold for 100 bazilion NIC and nothink can control the price anymore.
Overall remove epriton based materials will just hurt and do nothink good
except to make Beta players rich ... but you don't want to help Beta players ... you try to help new Industrials!
Way to go is:
- making extensions less important for T1 items and rise the importance for T4 (new producer = T1, medicore producer = T2+3, veteran producer = T4)
and/or
- lower the changs of "white" easy to repair T1 loot so the T1 market can't be flooded by loot+repair anymore (and make it more expensive for yellow defects + so expensive for red defects, that it's cheaper to buy new items from producers (red == this has just one use -> recycle it!))
This is important for all items, which are "basic-equip" like weapons, repair units, light frames, resitences plates etc (most used items).
---------------
just to repeat it: do NOT touch the components! it will not help new producers (the intent for this change)!
I think Hunter's issue is that he wants to continue to get Epri products through recycling of massive NPC drops instead of going to Beta to mine the stuff in a more "hostile" and unsafe climate.
I think the devs are going in the right direction. Epri needs to be removed from T1 items to help bring the cost of these basic items down. Your items shouldn't cost more than the ship for T1!
The intent for the change is:
much easier and competitive entry to the industrialist career.
NOT to boost beta
NOT to give you more targets
NOT to drive player to betas
And it doesn't change anythink for new industrials. Read my post above if you are realy interested to help new indutrials and have no other intentions ..
Furthermore we also plan to replace all epriton based components in T1 modules. This and the above changes will allow for a much easier and competitive entry to the industrialist career.
This will in no way help new industrials but rather hurt other players pritty bad.
NOW:
Item contains materials X + Y + Z
if both buy the materials from the market via buy orders
New player have to compete old players through Extensions, NPC relations (and quality of factories if the old one has access to Beta)If you remove material Z from the item leads to both need material X + Y
if both buy the materials from the market via buy orders
New player have to compete old players through Extensions, NPC relations (and quality of factories if the old one has access to Beta)See what I mean? Changing the materials will do nothink for a new producer!
Further more removing high quality materials from T1 loot will make the "high quality recycling" extension useless as there are no high quality materials in anymore to recycle (0 stay 0 equal if you have the extension at 0 or 10).
In addition, even if this might be only a small part of the market, there is no counter anymore to Beta Eprition. Nothink which might adjust the fantasy price of Beta miners for Epriton.
If they try to sell it expensive now Alpha players can chose to "farm" their Espit, Aligor aso. though recycling. Without this option Beta Eprition can be sold for 100 bazilion NIC and nothink can control the price anymore.Overall remove epriton based materials will just hurt and do nothink good
except to make Beta players rich ... but you don't want to help Beta players ... you try to help new Industrials!Way to go is:
- making extensions less important for T1 items and rise the importance for T4 (new producer = T1, medicore producer = T2+3, veteran producer = T4)
and/or
- lower the changs of "white" easy to repair T1 loot so the T1 market can't be flooded by loot+repair anymore (and make it more expensive for yellow defects + so expensive for red defects, that it's cheaper to buy new items from producers (red == this has just one use -> recycle it!))
This is important for all items, which are "basic-equip" like weapons, repair units, light frames, resitences plates etc (most used items).---------------
just to repeat it: do NOT touch the components! it will not help new producers (the intent for this change)!
most of the white t1 defects are cheaper to buy new than repair right now. generaly I do not bother repairing yellow and red. I repair white if I have to have the module and the repair price is at most around sell price.
if you remove a mineral from T1 production that's rare, you help new industrialists since they don't have to invest in acquiring it. for veteran producers it will not matter.
there has to be a reason to go to Beta, mineral resources are one of them. however making all production depend on Beta minerals is not a good thing and relying on recycling is a 2 edged sword.
So by making people not use epriton on 25% of available mods (just looking at all t1), you are going to make the beta players rich? 
How? Because they don't have to sell the stuff to alpha so much...? >.> We already have people say oh how much espitium he gets to say in the next sentence that it's barely what he needs in the long run.
Also I can see how "more advanced players" will get some of their from a cheap market (so they can make one line free and not have to build in different terminals/outposts)
I am defending the change because I can see how it's easier for producers to make t1 stuff ( The new producers said that they see it as a welcome change!), while the old producers are scared of losing a quarter of their possible profits.
Also I think you read JUST about the epriton based commodities and not about other changes. Heard anything about the CT's change? No?
Gut Punch wrote:I think Hunter's issue is that he wants to continue to get Epri products through recycling of massive NPC drops instead of going to Beta to mine the stuff in a more "hostile" and unsafe climate.
I think the devs are going in the right direction. Epri needs to be removed from T1 items to help bring the cost of these basic items down. Your items shouldn't cost more than the ship for T1!
The intent for the change is:
much easier and competitive entry to the industrialist career.
NOT to boost beta
NOT to give you more targets
NOT to drive player to betasAnd it doesn't change anythink for new industrials. Read my post above if you are realy interested to help new indutrials and have no other intentions ..
IF you don't need epri to make the basic, T1 items, you can actually start producing them without a venture into beta or a buy order.
The change isn't about making new indy's more competitive against the older ones, and if that's how this change ends up working than it's broken.
Let's change it the wording to combat instead of indy and see if it makes sense.
New combat players will be able to compete against vetern combat players.
Which of course is non-sense. They can't directly compete, they can support and participate, but not head to head.
What this does, is make it less likely that an advanced producer will tie up capital in T1 items because they can't get the same margin of return from it. And that is how it makes it better for new producers, by removing the incentive for direct competition with advanced producers.
There is no market for making non-espitium based modules that drop from NPC's, because they are being farmed in quantites that easily supply the market demand. And it's easier to pay NIC to repair/sell instantly then to gather mats and wait 6 hours for a manf. line to complete using 150% of the component costs.
jack - your argumentation is pretty narrow about 1 of 3 announced, and probably 7 other non-announced, industrial changes.
- the announcement didn't say "we remove it completely from t1 but leave it in t2 as it is"
- the announcement didn't mention the high grade recycling -> its a logical fact that this extension will change
- ignoring the CT change is key factor in your bad argumentation...
good that at least some others got that point
jack - your argumentation is pretty narrow about 1 of 3 announced, and probably 7 other non-announced, industrial changes.
- the announcement didn't say "we remove it completely from t1 but leave it in t2 as it is"
- the announcement didn't mention the high grade recycling -> its a logical fact that this extension will change
- ignoring the CT change is key factor in your bad argumentation...good that at least some others got that point
And you don't get, that most of the players here don't care about the new producers at all but try hardcore to ninja the idear to "BOOST MY BETA" and "bring more player to beta".
And
Furthermore we also plan to replace all epriton based components in T1 modules.
Remove it from T1 but let it in T2+ ... that's my point (which you don't seem to understand), they did not mention any change to T2+. If there is no change to T2+, this planed change is a shot in the back for all non-beta producers (new and old one!).
Or do you realy want to tell us, that this rare T2+ drobs can cover the recycle quantity of current T1? Who the hell recycles T2+ in larg numbers at all?? Maybe if it is red-damaged, the rest is either used in bots or used to produce the next level.
The "logical fact" about revamping recycling isn't that logical!
Yes, I hope the DEVs don't forget to change it. But it is no where mentioned. And when it isn't mentioned I can't ignore it.
The change to CTs is enough to help new producers and I mentioned several times, that it is a good way!
Overall bad attamp to flame me. Try it again 
.
IF you don't need epri to make the basic, T1 items, you can actually start producing them without a venture into beta or a buy order.
And there will be no other source then Beta anymore ..
this leads to:
as soon as a new producer want more then T1 he MUST buy it from Beta or has to risk his little Argano to mine it.
It doesn't make it easier at all but might make it even harder.
The very few T1 which aren't drobed will still be produced by Vets with much better extensions where a new producer can't compete. Except that BOTH don't need high quality materials now.
And he will have a much harder live to produce T2+ stuff as he has no chose anymore how he aquire his high quality materials.
And some of you still don't get it: you can place golden eegs on beta and even then there is a majority of players, who simply do not want to go there!
So this attamp to bring more player to beta will fail
And now let's get back to the topic how to realy help new producers!
Removing high quality materials will NOT help them but rather make their life even harder.
as soon as a new producer want more then T1 he MUST buy it from Beta or has to risk his little Argano to mine it.
Buying ore from the market is very easy to do, any new producer can do this.
Making some T1 items cheaper does help new people as they do not have much Nic
The price of Epri is going to rise a little due to less supply, this has very little effect on manufactrers, things cost a bit more to make then sell for more, their profit should not change. It will have an effect on high level fighters as their modules will be more expensive, but will help newer fighters as there modules will be cheaper.
Jack Jombardo wrote:as soon as a new producer want more then T1 he MUST buy it from Beta or has to risk his little Argano to mine it.
Buying ore from the market is very easy to do, any new producer can do this.
Making some T1 items cheaper does help new people as they do not have much Nic
Sure, producing one T1 item will be cheaper.
But from which T1 items do we talk? Shield, Sensor Amp, Amunition (which allready don't need Epri) and ..? The T1 items which are sold in high(er) amounts are Weapons, Armor reps, Weapon Upgrades, Miner/Harvester (upgrades) ...
So this new producer has to get his hand on a lot of Kernals before he can start to produce this Shield, Sensor Amps and 3-4 other items which are worth to be produced. Means he need either to Farm NPC which hinders him to skill production (producers are bad killers you know?) or to spend ALOT of money on the market.
The money they need to buy Epri from the market is marginal compared to the NIC they have to pay for the Kernals.
And as every producer who knows what he/she do give the price he pays for materials 1:5 to his custumers ... it doesn't matter if the producer has to pay 100 NIC or 100.000 NIC as his products then will simply cost 500 NIC or 500.000 NIC.
Changing the recipe does not change, that there are very few items, which can be produced at all and don't drob massive from NPC.
And it does not change, that a new Producer has to compete with the old Producers with much better extensions/reputations for this very few items.
But it will change, that new producers (and all vet Alpha only producers) will have a harder time to produce T2+ stuff as one of two resources for Espit/Aligo will be removed.
Intended by the DEVs?
possible outcome: highgrade recycling gets removed, epriton based stuff recycles again to the same conditions as other stuff:
150 espitium in one T1 neut with high grade recycling = 1-16 Espitium
150 espitium in one T0 neut with standard recycling = 22- 80 Espitium
minimum is without any extension point, maximum at best possible
Wait for the new change with no epriton + the new ct changes and then whine with proof that it kills the market.
This has been disucssed in several threads now. I'm all for removing epriton based commodities from t1 drops so that the new players can get easier access to mission critical pvp gear like sensor amps, demobs, sheilds, maskers and detectors, so long as there's still a viable opportunity to aquire espitium from other means.
It's been suggested by Arga that things change as currently planned, but with the addition of adding espitium to a NON MANUFACTURABLE item, such as fragments.
Fragments already drop in sufficient quantities that no prototyper should ever want for them, and adding espitium to them would increase their value to combat characters who can sell them on the market to the rare prototyper who doesn't have a corp or combat alt.
I'd like to challenge you people to prove this would be a bad idea -- in the area of why having espitium contained in fragments would be detrimental to someone. Please leave the "You don't need espitium unless you minzorz on beta" argument for a diffrent discussion, we've been over that ground so many times the trails are getting pretty wide.
It's been suggested by Arga that things change as currently planned, but with the addition of adding espitium to a NON MANUFACTURABLE item, such as fragments.
Fragments already drop in sufficient quantities that no prototyper should ever want for them, and adding espitium to them would increase their value to combat characters who can sell them on the market to the rare prototyper who doesn't have a corp or combat alt.
Well, add different Epriton Based Materials to the 3 different collored perfect fragments and I'm fine.
At the moment perfect fragments contain 8 units of material in total (4+4). Replacing 1 of the non-Epri-based materials with a Epri-Based material could work. But as this is a to small amount to somehow make it work with an extension, that adds 1% quality/level, high quality refining would need a rework. But atm I can't imagin any posible change 
.
Base recycling of 1 high quality material peer fragment maybe? High quality refining now adds 1% to all refinings and at level 5 it doubles the emount of high quality Material you get from Fragments?
So max you would get is 2 Espit/Briochit/Aligor peer perfect fragment if you have high quality recycling 5. .... not realy much but still a way to get this materials if you want to do it.
Or instead of complex materials you put Epriton in the fragments (4 common material + 10000 Epriton) starting with a base recycle of 100 Epriton rising the amount to 1100 with high quality recycling 10. Then you don't even need to change the extension and 1100 Epri is a REALY low amount!
Since I play I collected around 6k prefect fragments (all collors together) ... that's 60000 Epri ... nothink a Beta miner has to worry about! It's my farming work of 3 weeks! Around 20k Epri/week ... realy REALY low amount compared to what is needed.
Wait for the new change with no epriton + the new ct changes and then whine with proof that it kills the market.
I place a bet Espitium will rise to 3k+ buyorders (if there are any at all anymore) and Epriton will go to 18+ if it is removed from all T1 items without propper replacement.
If people will start buying it for 18 then it's gonna stay at 18. If not people will drop it to 15 again.
When epi changed from liquid to solid the price changed from 10 to 25, then dropped to 10 again and after some time climbed into about 15? I didnt look at the market for too long to really know 
So this new producer has to get his hand on a lot of Kernals before he can start to produce this Shield, Sensor Amps and 3-4 other items which are worth to be produced.
No, he does not need any kernels to make T1 mods
New Indy character sells cheap t1s for a small profit to an older indy character. Older indy character gets the t1s dirt cheap, turns them into higher tier items and sells them for big profit. I fail to see how they are competing with each other. One less thing an older indy has to worry about making, sounds good to me.
If people will start buying it for 18 then it's gonna stay at 18. If not people will drop it to 15 again.
When epi changed from liquid to solid the price changed from 10 to 25, then dropped to 10 again and after some time climbed into about 15? I didnt look at the market for too long to really know
People have a risk premium. The higher the price gets, the closer it will be to their required premium. Dat means more people going out and risking their buttes for epi.
I think that's good.
I also don't think this is a significant determinant of epi pricing, so other than a brief spike I doubt it will matter.
Btdubs I am too lazy to carry my personal spare epi pile out to TMA, so moar buy orders in Shinj plz!
People have a risk premium. The higher the price gets, the closer it will be to their required premium. Dat means more people going out and risking their buttes for epi.
I think that's good.
Yes, it's clear allready. You try to ninja "help for new producers" for your "more people to beta". I smelled it the while reading your first post about this change.
Hell, do you even care about the new producer at all?
Or is all you want to have more Arganos to shot who can't defend themselve?
Prolly the first argano wont be able to defend, then maybe another.
But suddenly you will have 5 light bots log on you and you be sorry
Yes, it's clear allready. You try to ninja "help for new producers" for your "more people to beta". I smelled it the while reading your first post about this change.
Hell, do you even care about the new producer at all?
Or is all you want to have more Arganos to shot who can't defend themselve?
Hi, welcome to Perpetuum. Clearly you do not know who NEX is or what we are about. Please take a look at our recent kills. Then click lights and count the Argano kills. Don't worry, it'll be pretty easy because out of almost two hundred kills (in barely over one month, mind) the Argano kill count. Then shut your face.
http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=corp&co … view=kills
I am also proud of this particular kill, and will always be proud of this particular kill because we did it at like two weeks old: http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=1480
I don't want to kill Arganos. They're boring because they don't fight back. I want to kill the people protecting the Arganos. If an Argano has the temerity to sit about on a beta in my presence, unprotected, I'll of course kill it. But actively look for one would be like actively looking for something to jab in my eye.
Your corp, on the other hand, has a far higher ratio of industrials to combats. About half of your eight kills over the past, uh, ever? http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=corp&co … 20Tomorrow
So yeah. There's that. Hey I support your trying, and if your guys wanna come on our roams lemme know. We take damn near everyone because lol why not. We'll shoot whatever ain't in gang, and we'll only shoot those _in_ gang if we get really REALLY bored.
I DO on the other hand ninja epi on my alt on beta. Surprise.
I think people should go to beta because this game's combat zones are fairly safe for people who aren't doing silly things like entering through a major route or sitting about on a tp fapping. So go out there and do stuff because the money is good, the losses are minimal and the challenge of sneaking about in a bot that's the game equivalent of a siren screaming kill me is pretty entertaining.
Raise the theme with the following words.
I have researched T4 armor repair. I'm not going to build them, because they are useless. Repair Cycle not allows survive in PvP.
I have researched T4 ERP. I will not use it because their cost is very high, and there is no efficiency.
I learned t4 weapon. I'm not going to build them because squad m1 assault robots will kill me.
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