1 (edited by Darkwing 2010-12-03 19:50:22)

Topic: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

There really should be no attributes at all.

Character specialization should be defined by skill choices over a lifetime, not day 1 character creation. Think about it, what added value do attributes provide? Some skills take longer and some shorter? But eventually they give or sell you re-specs because you change your mind?

Why not just have no attributes at all? If you want to specialize in production, go ahead and specialize in production by choosing production skills. If you want to specialize in combat, take combat skills. If you want to be a jack of all trades, master of none, knock yourself out and spread your SP around.

Attributes are not needed for specialization. The only thing attributes do is exacerbate the imbalance between those who have a mastery of system mechanics at character creation and those who are trying a new game without knowing much about it.

2 (edited by Darkwing 2010-12-03 19:53:05)

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

Cross posting this from the General Discussion board because Apher wrote up a very good analysis of the subject...

Apher wrote:

For me the problem lies in the strange way attributes affect Ep progression. I have two accounts: 1 pure combat and 1 pure indi. When I created them I didn't put much work into planning them but I've read up on the forums that "pure" is the way to go so thats what I did.

Yesterday I started wondering if there are any alternatives I've missed so I spent 2-3 hrs on the planner and guess what... everyone was right.

There is simply no scenario in which putting attributes into anything else than pure indy or pure combat is worth it. Well there is one build I managed to come up with. It's combat build specialized in the electronic warfare ONLY, which is better off if you put a little bit (e.g. just last choice of spark ) in the research and developement but only if you skip any weapon skills (which makes it kinda pointless imo) and the return is few days worth of EP anyway!

All other builds whether is pure mining indy, pure production indy, all combat builds etc is severly gimped if you make creation choice other than 4x combat or 4x indy.

So my question is why put attributes at all? The simpler and less painfull solution is to just make people choose between combat or industial class. Yea it's less sandbox but right now the freedom we have is an illusion. We're only free to have a same char as everyone else or a gimped char.

Or just fix the attribute system so the primary attribute for the given skill bears less weight comparing to the secondary attribute for the same skill than it is now. That would enable some more flexibility in terms of builds. For example almost all mining skills have Mechatronics as a secondary attribute. Wouldn't it make sense to be better off putting at least few points into this attribute if you want only mining char and thus be a little different than other standard builds (right now its all indy)?

3 (edited by GLiMPSE 2010-12-03 19:55:40)

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

Darkwing wrote:

There really should be no attributes at all.

Character specialization should be defined by skill choices over a lifetime, not day 1 character creation. Think about it, what added value do attributes provide? Some skills take longer and some shorter? But eventually they give or sell you re-specs because you change your mind?

Why not just have no attributes at all? If you want to specialize in production, go ahead and specialize in production by choosing production skills. If you want to specialize in combat, take combat skills. If you want to be a jack of all trades, master of none, knock yourself out and spread your SP around.

Attributes are not needed for specialization. The only thing attributes do is exacerbate the imbalance between those who have a mastery of system mechanics at character creation and those who are trying a new game without knowing much about it.

I'd prefer give everyone max attributes for all schools instead of removing...if you wanted to 'even the playing field'

But I do agree, what's the point of attributes, sure they offer some perceived 'customization' but really all that is is an efficiency 'lock-in' for those attributes you chose at the beginning and nothing to do with how your character performs.

Let us 'open source' our character customization instead of 'attribute lock-in'... lol, just got done listening to an IT Vendor ranting about how their line of products dissuades vendor lock in and is open source!

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

I like attributes But I think that character creation just needs to have a simple school select and Spark. So you'd go "Combat, Industry, Politics/Social" and these options make a lot more sense.

More choices in-game should influence your attributes instead of character creation.

The Game

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

I agree, specialization should be done with extensions, not attributes.

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

There must be attributes, and you'll always have to make decisions. But maybe, you should make them later. Lets say you start with 0 points in every attribute, and you could choose to apply them later in game. As attributes actually affect the cost of extensions, you should pick up your mind asap. This way you can store some attributes for later use, or just spend them all as you want, with the limits we have now, around 30 per attribute.

Who was born a gecko, will never be an alligator.
M2S - Menace to Society fraggin since 2009

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

Learning skills!

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

Mars Volta wrote:

There must be attributes, and you'll always have to make decisions. But maybe, you should make them later. Lets say you start with 0 points in every attribute, and you could choose to apply them later in game. As attributes actually affect the cost of extensions, you should pick up your mind asap. This way you can store some attributes for later use, or just spend them all as you want, with the limits we have now, around 30 per attribute.

Same problem different method for implementing it..

What you're describing, as I think Siddy may have been eluding too, is learning skills.. which as we all know are a bad idea.

Removing the 'attribute specialiazation' factor is truely the best solution. Attributes do nothing... To parallel this to other sandbox's, UO had attributes... that meant something that you got from raising skills... that's the proper way to have attributes imo.

Right now we just have attributes to lock efficient people into a 'set way' to build their character... and in a time based MMO most people will try and be as efficient as possible.

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

F'n carebear whiners.  Nothing new with this thread....i cant understand why people like this get up in the morning.  It is such a waste of everyones time to complain about things they dont like in a game.  It nvr stops.  Whine whine all i hear.  People seem to spendcountless hours compiling emails with the assumption thattheor idea and vision is better than everyone elses.  The game just came out.  Be patient and enjoy the game.  The thing i have seen thus far worth making threads about is the lack of payment options... Which will get fixed eventually.  So go back to wow.





























Oh just kidding..... Bored at work tongue.

- M2S -

U betr run!

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

Sounds like another day at the office...

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

As I explained in another post, I think it's a very important point to have a progression system that never penalize you for not delaying a skill you want to take immediately. The current attribute system (with respec) would do this, exactly like Eve learnings.

I am really in favor of disabling the attributes until a better (as in 'where you can't screw up irremediably') system is found. and by disabling I mean giving/taking back all the EP lost/won with them.

The earlier it is done, the better it will be for the players. Nobody wants players leaving after the first month because they didn't go 4 military or 4 industry and are now realizing how bad they should have.

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

Couldn't agree more

13 (edited by Darkwing 2010-12-03 21:06:22)

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

GLiMPSE wrote:

I'd prefer give everyone max attributes for all schools instead of removing...if you wanted to 'even the playing field'

If they did decide to remove attributes, this (or something similar) would probably be the way they would implement it "behind the scenes". It's effectively the same thing and wouldn't require a code re-write (they could remove the graphic for attributes at their leisure).

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

"These attributes help you to install and upgrade the related extensions faster. It is advised to set those attributes high which help you to develop your preferred extensions and activities faster."
^ is this really all that attributes do? make your extensions marginally cheaper? ...why is everyone complaining? does it even effect the difference all that much? OMG ITS GONNA TAKE ME 2 MORE HOURS TO LVL TARGETING CUZ I DIDNT PURE COMBAT SPEC...really?

anyways, keep attributes, they have almost no purpose, and the one they do serve is OBVIOUS so all those ppl that "messed up their character cuz they didnt know" are *** and I hope will quit, cuz ffs I hate playing with ***...just sayin...

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

Lachan wrote:

"These attributes help you to install and upgrade the related extensions faster. It is advised to set those attributes high which help you to develop your preferred extensions and activities faster."
^ is this really all that attributes do? make your extensions marginally cheaper? ...why is everyone complaining? does it even effect the difference all that much? OMG ITS GONNA TAKE ME 2 MORE HOURS TO LVL TARGETING CUZ I DIDNT PURE COMBAT SPEC...really?

anyways, keep attributes, they have almost no purpose, and the one they do serve is OBVIOUS so all those ppl that "messed up their character cuz they didnt know" are *** and I hope will quit, cuz ffs I hate playing with ***...just sayin...

When you're talking about rank 9 and 10  of some extensions outside of your spec you're talking about days worth of training points... sometimes weeks.

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

I'd also say keep attributes, but give everyone a single free respec so they can try out lets say mining, but if they don't like it they can go combat. ( also include new attribute points on respec )

Re: Remove attributes from the game. [Request]

GLiMPSE wrote:
Lachan wrote:

"These attributes help you to install and upgrade the related extensions faster. It is advised to set those attributes high which help you to develop your preferred extensions and activities faster."
^ is this really all that attributes do? make your extensions marginally cheaper? ...why is everyone complaining? does it even effect the difference all that much? OMG ITS GONNA TAKE ME 2 MORE HOURS TO LVL TARGETING CUZ I DIDNT PURE COMBAT SPEC...really?

anyways, keep attributes, they have almost no purpose, and the one they do serve is OBVIOUS so all those ppl that "messed up their character cuz they didnt know" are *** and I hope will quit, cuz ffs I hate playing with ***...just sayin...

When you're talking about rank 9 and 10  of some extensions outside of your spec you're talking about days worth of training points... sometimes weeks.

Try Perp Planner. You'll see the difference.

Who was born a gecko, will never be an alligator.
M2S - Menace to Society fraggin since 2009