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Re: Your game is broken...

Good description of the swarm, Aeon. I wouldn't call it communism at all. It's no more communistic than most real life european countries politics. It's also much more social democratic than it is communistic. But this is irrelevant.

In terms of the old EvE politics, when controlling territory meant towers at the moons and tower warfare and no one yet had blobs of hundreds of dreadnoughts, the swarm organization was already an exception.

Each super-power in the game had his specific organizational structure. Yet it was (and actually still is) common to have council based superblock politics where a superblock is a semi-permanent NAP+CoAggression Pact between several alliances where each alliance in the council actually is itself the most powerful one of a group of alliances forming a more permanent NAP. Within these smaller NAPs the non-leader alliances were generally termed pets (if fighting) or renters (if generally not fighting) by the enemies. Internally each NAP and eventually each alliance had it's own organization. Often, not always, the NAPs would be council based (some were leader based). Often, not always, single alliances were leader based, some were council based.

Goons always disliked both the "council" principle and the single leader one. So much that they somewhat disliked being part of a council based superblock.

And that's probably why goons were never really considered a part of a superblock. They were considered allied (possibly temporarily) to one or more superblocks or to one or more other powerful alliances. But never really part of a superblock.

Goons were not part of the eastern russian block, and yet they were often sympathetic to xXDEATHXx (and even Solar) and definitively big friends of the RED Alliance (because of great respect earned in historical circumstances in Insmother). Ther were never part of the big northern coalition NAP, but they were allied to them for a long time (especially against the BOB later Ken later IT forces and their allies). They were never part of the mini coalition between PL and SOT that controlled Fountain, but had a long standing friendship with PL (partly, I think, because of the respect based friendship between the Mittani and Kugu and the involvement of Kugu with PL, but of course mostly because they had the same agenda against BOB). The fact that the swarm and PL often happily fought each other is irrelevant: they were not fighting, they were just 'sploding each other ships (I guess you know what I mean).

Yes. The swarm has always been more "robust" and mostly immune to burnouts, pissoffs, failcascades and other shenanigans. And yes, it's leadership (or more exactly it's political organization) proved to be superior in several ways.

And yet I do not think that superior leadership or organization is the main reason for the persistence of the swarm. I think there is a deeper reason. A reason similar to the bound that keeps the eastern block together (more or less). Or the one that more than once prevented the complete failcascade (did not prevent multiple partial failcascades, but did prevent a complete one several times) of the french guys.
A bond that has to do with strong out-of-game recognition of each other as part of a social group. That's nationality and national culture/history for the french and the russians. It's a forum for the swarm.

I'm sure more than one eyebrow will rise to the idea that a forum can be as strong a social identity as being russian (or japanese, or french or whatever strong national identity you like). But those eyebrows do not belong to someone that knows that forum, and those that do not know it do not understand it.

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

Re: Your game is broken...

I lost my mec, due to my own complete stupidity, PVEing this evening, but reading this thread has put a smile on my face.  Partly because of fond memories of Eve, and partly because of some extremely well written and interesting posts.  Thank you all :-).

Two things.  Firstly, it will be fantastic when we are writing about Perpetuum in the present in the same way that people have written about Eve in the past.  Secondly, Mammoth, I really don't think you get the sheer immensity of the leadership, logistical, social, political, and military challenges a game like Eve can present.  In that regard Eve is...... remarkable.  The leaders, whether on "my" old side, or "other" sides, being equally remarkable, and deserving of as much respect as it is possible to give in a game world.

Re: Your game is broken...

Yeah, treat people with respect, don't get stabbed in the back, pretty hard to figure out. roll

Re: Your game is broken...

Pak wrote:
Alexander wrote:

I'm late to the thread. Can someone TL;DR it for anyone that's put off by walls of text. I've read most of it but I'm lost on what the current discussion is now.

Something about meta gaming and game corp size balance?

Interesting social dynamics happened in EvE warfare in the past (and, to an extent still happen today). Are they the result of leadership failure? Some say yes, some say no.

Why is the military might considered the one and only real measure of power in PvP areas in EvE? And is it actually the most important aspect?

because 95% of the things in game can be achieved by combat. from money to modules to market only items to rewards ... very few things can be done by money only.

that's the way MMORPGs were designed from the start, since the RPG model was/is combat based too.

just have a look at the various non damage/tank areas evolving in EVE. most notably theny never got ECM/sensor/cap warfare right. speed is another matter. straight gun changes are few and far between (mostly missiles) while I can remember at least one ECM change/nerf a year for the time I played EVE (5-6 years or so).

same with PO. have a look how the non combat/robot control extensions are handled. the one good thing is, that you have to sell loot to get money from NPC kills. ok PO is a young game, but it will evolve mostly the same way EVE did.

Re: Your game is broken...

Scratch wrote:

I lost my mec, due to my own complete stupidity, PVEing this evening, but reading this thread has put a smile on my face.  Partly because of fond memories of Eve, and partly because of some extremely well written and interesting posts.  Thank you all :-).

Two things.  Firstly, it will be fantastic when we are writing about Perpetuum in the present in the same way that people have written about Eve in the past.  Secondly, Mammoth, I really don't think you get the sheer immensity of the leadership, logistical, social, political, and military challenges a game like Eve can present.  In that regard Eve is...... remarkable.  The leaders, whether on "my" old side, or "other" sides, being equally remarkable, and deserving of as much respect as it is possible to give in a game world.

Well I'd put up a perp-news blog, but I doubt anyone other than NEX would write stuff for it. I mean, even in NEX I'd have to twist some *** to get content.

Re: Your game is broken...

Ridiculous.

The triangle income is about right, and more over its needed.

I joined a few weeks ago and its been very useful for me and many other new players to get enough nic to go do what they enjoy and to get setup.

Eve early days was like perpetuum income wise early days and was far more fun, now like many I find it more fun to play on their test server than the actual live server because they nerf'd income so much it became so much of a grind it became a job.

I come to play not to work and when perpetuum starts being a job like eve I and many others I suspect will stop playin it.

The life blood of these types of game is community and having fun with friends and the social aspect.

Having the ability to earn enough to fit a mech out well in a couple of days is a good thing cos you can go have fun blowing it up or blowing someone else up! (FUN)

Sitting around grinding mission after mission for a month to replace a mech not only makes you not want to get involved with PVP because of the loss and having to spend another month grinding for income to replace it. (VERY NOT FUN)

In perpetuum NIC is kinda meaningless over being a method to get what you need play and thats a very good thing, skills control achievement.

But even as is now running the triangle I make around 1.5mil a hour (actually using a clock to time it) and I can carry 7 missions at once that's 1 short of the max available running all missions to every station on the lev 1's, so I don't know where you get your figures from.

And that's after they removed the docking timer, and iuts pretty tedious stuff.

107 (edited by Annihilator 2011-08-18 11:58:23)

Re: Your game is broken...

In perpetuum NIC is kinda meaningless over being a method to get what you need play and thats a very good thing, skills control achievement.

sometimes i wonder: what other meaning could it have?

also the title "THE triangle" is kinda missleading, as there are several "triangle" routes. The alpha1 triangle which gives you good NIC if you got parallel assignments on high level.

but theres also the big triangle between the alpha2 terminals which pays pretty well too, just more player interaction due to navigation.

last but not least, there are beta outpost triangles that pay MUCH more for the minimal risk of beeing shot down by random pvp-roam (not if your alliance is watching all teleports)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear