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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

We want a beta island, but haven't gotten there yet. We get plenty of epi ninja mining. Unfortunately a big chunk of that gets wasted on t1 mods that use it that we need because they don't drop or don't drop with the frequency we need them too.

So if we are doing ok and this change will benefit us (according to the number crunching indy bears in corp, all of whom have the balls to head out and mine stuff on beta) then you shouldn't have too much trouble adjusting. If you want the stuff but don't want to get it put buy orders in shinj so we don't have to haul it so far. TOG is on shinj too, and the nearest beta islands are chock full of active battling corps, all of whom find shinj a convenient market. If you want to help us out come there and sell stuff while buying epi. We'll make you rich if you can fill our needs, and you won't need to risk the omg terrars of beta for epi.

But seriously, t1 fit insured argano costs dirt and there are tons of places you can mine in relative safety. Single load will more than conver your costs; prior to the size change I was pulling out a mere 30k epi a run, and at 14 per that added up to ~420k per haul. In other words, one run covered the costs and each subsequent one with that argano was pure profit. Now? Now it is probably even better because the argano fits more epi. Since you guys wanna use it to build, you'll make even more.

So yeah. Seeing as the risk of someone spotting me are low and the returns good, I have no trouble ninja mining. I recommend giving it a shot unless you have a heart attack every time you pop.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

I've lived on beta, was co leader of RG, and for awhile acting leader. I've mined more epriton then I care to remember, back when it was a liquid. There was some days, I'd leave my noob termis on the spot for 12 hours while i watched gates, went on roams and defended norhoop. I've been there, I've done that.

If the goal here is to make it easier, they could always just lower the requirements of espitium in t1 mods. Maybe that'll actually be hte case here real soon when the complexity level of CTs changes... you could see 100% CT's of t1 stuff.

Removing espitium from them completly removes the one and only "other" option for industrialists to make EVERYTHING ELSE that requires espitium.

It's like being on an automated industrial line, heading for the saw that's going to chop you in half, but instead the managers come and move the saw up so it only cuts off your head.

Seriously, lets make it easiser to make crap in our first two weeks so we can make it harder to make crap the whole rest of the game.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:

Seriously, lets make it easiser to make crap in our first two weeks so we can make it harder to make crap the whole rest of the game.

Newsflash, most (if not all) of the mmo games does that.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Norrdec wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:

Seriously, lets make it easiser to make crap in our first two weeks so we can make it harder to make crap the whole rest of the game.

Newsflash, most (if not all) of the mmo games does that.

This game doesn't currently but will soon. You missed the point and rather took that short extract out of context.

I made a post about this a while ago when it was just a small rumour and it didn't even get noticed.

Removing all Epriton based materials from T1 modules is a blessing and a curse. Anyone that relies on recycling is here by screwed but the people that mine it and have to waste it (Even though 90% of T1 modules drop and are repairable cheaper than they cost to build) on building T1 modules.. This will of course make some very expensive modules rather cheap so with any luck they'll balance it so that they need more of the easy to get minerals. That said we should see a lot more sensor amps and other modules which benefits new players and mega blobs (Mega blobs don't need to rely on T2+ modules to win as it's always cheaper to lose 3+ T1 robots over a single T4 robot).

So it's a blessing to some and a curse to others. It's a change really. A shift in the market. Beta activity will need to increase but it's still way to easy to escape due to teleport scouting.

If they want to make this a double edged sword they should add that teleporters cannot be scouted.

55 Reply by Arga (edited by Arga 2011-07-27 18:51:44)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

I'm not sure beta activity will need to increase, or not by any significant amount. It takes 400k epitron to make a riveler, but only about 14k to make a sensor amp. And not everyone is farming espitium, so the small subset that are will need to buy from the market, but we won't see anything like a 50% increase in demand. Maybe 5 to 6% if everyone making modules used recycling.

There's currently no shortage of Epi on the market, so an increase in demand of even 10% can be absorbed without any alpha player needing to set foot on beta.

Even if the price goes up, the result will be more expensive T+ modules and high end bots, which aren't be purchased by new players anyway.

What it will hurt is the producers that currently make T1 modules like amps and sell them for high margins.

In any case, HGR extension needs to be reset to 0 or simply removed.

Edit: Older players are more capable of absorbing an increase in cost.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

-Agree, this change favours again, older players, blobs, and T1 only modules on market.
Srslly Megacorps need the game to get dumbet to this lvl?

- Aeon i think we agree that we dont talk about me, i was in sinj since implemented and nijaed with Rivelers with t4 fittings, nor we talk about your huge corporation that wont have any issue acesing to beta nor accesing to epriton no matter what happens. But the game wont beneffit much from this change. (i will be more than happy with HGR extension ep back , as i use it no much now, but dont see it as good change honestlly).

-And yeah The Older Gamers always have the advantage cool

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:

So maybe I'm a little late coming to this realization, but I've got mixed feelings about this change, as I assume that the removal of epriton componets means that they'll also be removed from recycling.


Exactly! Be careful what you wish for. You may get it. 

More importantly, this does absolutely nothing for new crafters. T1 stuff drops as loot. There is no cost to the player selling loot and so they always drive prices below manufacturing cost for any module that drops often. That's why no one manufactures most T1 stuff. You can't make a profit on it.  But, now, once you get the kernels up to T2, you have a little espitium from recycling to manufacture with.

Soon, that will be no more. Then you have to pay the big Beta corps for all (as opposed to some/most) the epriton, which will drive prices for T2+ even higher.

No one benefits from this except the big Beta corps.

I really wish the devs would spend a little more time thinking through the ramifications of their plans.

58 Reply by Rodger Wilcoe (edited by Rodger Wilcoe 2011-07-27 22:17:36)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:

Alpha people aren't asking for anything to be made EASIER here. This is a mechanice already in place.

No, it is people who don't want an "easier" mechanic taken away.

Essinatlly this has boiled down to Alpha vs. Beta, with the people on beta getting bored of lack of fighting, upset that people on alpha can make things in saftey and then use it to come out and pewpew them (hello 62nd), which is a contradiction to what they're saying.

I'm not on Beta and I support the change.

This direction of forcing people to beta is not healthy, and should be balanced.

You don't have to go to Beta, only if you want shiny toys.

To be honest, I think Light and maybe Assault bots should have their Epri requirement removed as well. That way, Alpha can have their little self-sustained paradise, but be limited to lower-end bots. You want bigger and better? Interact with Beta.

Yes I agree it should be balanced, however currently it isn't in my opinion and Alpha is self-sustaining when it shouldn't be.

Norrdec wrote:

The new guys aren't used to being able to safely do everything on alpha and see the change as something beneficial.

From my perspective as a new player, Alphas are little microcosms, with little incentive to move to Beta, venture to Beta, or even interact with Beta.

You want to stay on Alpha? Fine, you can be limited to T1 mods and light/assault bots.

"So what if a dedicated alpha corp gets together to farm for recycling needs?" Nothing, but why not sit on beta for an hour?

Because that can't be done solo apparently. Yes, I support aspects of the game deliberately penalising solo players.

Smokeyii wrote:

Removing espitium from them completly removes the one and only "other" option for industrialists to make EVERYTHING ELSE that requires espitium.

Well here is a thought for balancing. Have 2 (or more) ways to make the same thing. In this I mean mineral/component requirements.

So there is one way to do it using epri, or a less-efficient way without but higher requirements of other materials to "synthesize" the same outcome.

Of course recycling will only net you the "less efficient" components.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Calio wrote:

More importantly, this does absolutely nothing for new crafters. T1 stuff drops as loot

That is misleading, many T1 modules do not drop on alpha bots. Sensor amps, shields, etc. And it shows in the prices - and makes it worth it to produce them. The modules that drop on beta are either recycled or used there, very few of them find their way to the market.

So, good or bad for espitium users, this change will absolutely help the new producer by allowing them to make items that are desireable and don't just fall off alpha bots in droves. And it will also help PVP new players since they no longer have to spend more then the cost of a bot for one module.

Second counter is; not ALL epitron comes from big beta corps. In fact I would bet very few beta corps sell epitron, because they need large quantities of it. Beta corp members may sell it, but thier profit is not corporate profit.

If anything beta corps are going to suffer equally, because the quantitity of espitium modules that drop while farming in beta is much higher, and as such they benefit more from it, and they'll also be forced to mine more.

I just got a load of espitium from modules I recycled last night on alpha, it was great. But beta vs. alpha arguements are getting tired in this thread.

There is a benefit to new players, and there is a detriment to both alpha and beta recyclers.

What needs to be done is to prove the detriment of this change outweighs the benefit; but that's going to be hard to do, and if I could think of anything this change would really break, I'd share it. Epi price will spike, because it can. But it will drop when it doesn't sell. New players will be buying more, and new manf. will be making more.

If you have a hanger full of T1 sensor amps, I'd recycle them now.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Arga wrote:

If you have a hanger full of T1 sensor amps, I'd recycle them now.

No wonder we can't buy them.  It's been pretty harsh since they're quite useful for going to Beta tongue

wink

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61 Reply by Smokeyii (edited by Smokeyii 2011-07-27 22:44:47)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Your opinion is certainly valid Rodger. What you're missing here is:

People on alpha will always be able to get shiny toys, there's this thing... it's called the market. Maybe not everything is avalible yet, but eventually it will be. Unless you get rid of the market completly, you'll never be able to stop people from farming on alpha wether mining or npc ratting, and using the money they got from that to buy the best gear.

And really, why would you want to? Again, we're back to trying to force people to play your way. It's already hard enough on alpha to aquire enough epriton (assuming you're not ninja mining... the money has to come from somewhere and the best pay out per hour in the game is mining epriton).

Another thing you're missing here is that it's people around your in-game age that will lose out the most on this, as I'm sure you guys are doing alot of farming for kernels right now, and that espitium from recycling could be put to good use making you all the modules you want to use.

And for those combat pilots that DO use the market, their source of income from selling modules like Cargo Scanners, Chassis Scanners and Geoscanners will dry up, because there'll be no point in buying them if they dont contain espitium... not for 10,000 nic anyways.

The more hardcore you make this game, the less people are going to play it. Why is it so important to you that Alpha not have the shiny toys that you do, because you're on beta? Why should solo players (or corps that dont want to live on beta) be penalized? They're still using the market, so there's interaction there. Some of them go out to beta and pvp, so there's interaction there. Other's have said joining a group makes things so much easier, don't you think players that choose to play solo are already penalized enough by their own choice to do everything themselves? Why does that bother you?

62 Reply by Smokeyii (edited by Smokeyii 2011-07-27 22:43:50)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Arga wrote:
Calio wrote:

More importantly, this does absolutely nothing for new crafters. T1 stuff drops as loot

That is misleading, many T1 modules do not drop on alpha bots. Sensor amps, shields, etc. And it shows in the prices - and makes it worth it to produce them. The modules that drop on beta are either recycled or used there, very few of them find their way to the market.

So, good or bad for espitium users, this change will absolutely help the new producer by allowing them to make items that are desireable and don't just fall off alpha bots in droves. And it will also help PVP new players since they no longer have to spend more then the cost of a bot for one module.

Second counter is; not ALL epitron comes from big beta corps. In fact I would bet very few beta corps sell epitron, because they need large quantities of it. Beta corp members may sell it, but thier profit is not corporate profit.

If anything beta corps are going to suffer equally, because the quantitity of espitium modules that drop while farming in beta is much higher, and as such they benefit more from it, and they'll also be forced to mine more.

I just got a load of espitium from modules I recycled last night on alpha, it was great. But beta vs. alpha arguements are getting tired in this thread.

There is a benefit to new players, and there is a detriment to both alpha and beta recyclers.

What needs to be done is to prove the detriment of this change outweighs the benefit; but that's going to be hard to do, and if I could think of anything this change would really break, I'd share it. Epi price will spike, because it can. But it will drop when it doesn't sell. New players will be buying more, and new manf. will be making more.

If you have a hanger full of T1 sensor amps, I'd recycle them now.

Ok, so you limited the problem here to there being modules that DONT drop in pve loot. I guess the best awnser then would be.... HAVE THEM DROP IN LOOT >.<

Maybe tie them into the NEW ELITE SPAWNS... they'll drop sensor amps, sheilds and sheild hardener?

That wont penalize recyclers, and the prices will fall on the market somewhat due to there being more supply.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Yep, that would certainly bring the cost down of those modules and solve the PVP issue.

Um, but now there are no T1 modules that manf. can produce for profit. About all they'll be able to make is ammo and light bots.

But it does bring it closer to then being an alpha vs. beta issue; that is if epitron being farmable on alpha is a mistake.

I'd like to point out, that regular recycling gives titanium, which is derived from titan ore, supposedly an alpha only item.

If the arguement is purely about resource allocation, then titanium should be removed from beta drops. Don't ask me how that would work, just that it's the mirror of the arguement, and it doesn't make sense - which means that maybe not having espitium drop in alpha doesn't make sense either.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

This change will make it easier for new players to manufacture and sell T1 items. As hard as it is for new players, this advantage far outweighs other issues.

I am always in favour of, if you need materials; mine it or buy it from someone that mines that takes risks.

We don't need another eve, where around 70% or so of the commodities used come from recycled loot or npc drones. What meaning does this give to the miner?

RIP PERPETUUM

65 Reply by Immo (edited by Immo 2011-07-27 23:56:06)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

so this means t4 stuff (epistium modules/bots etc.) will not be available in alfa yes?
i would better delete my combat char than going to beta to get/buy my mech/heavy mech

also i can safely delete my recycler alt and stop paying it (the 2nd account)
opening good market for low tier items, but killing the high one

can anyone tell me that beta corps are selling epistium on alfas ???
kill titan from recycling too !!!

p.s. sorry, too frustrated that there is little to no market on the high end.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

The rarity of tired modules in the market is not because of a lack of material, its because of research mostly. Although with T4 medium lasers on the market at 10 M NIC, it shows that the research is out there, but there's not enough competition yet. Not that I don't think someone should charge 10M, since it probably took billions of NIC to get that prototype, it's just a much smaller market to sell multimillion dollar modules to.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Arga wrote:

The rarity of tired modules in the market is not because of a lack of material, its because of research mostly. Although with T4 medium lasers on the market at 10 M NIC, it shows that the research is out there, but there's not enough competition yet. Not that I don't think someone should charge 10M, since it probably took billions of NIC to get that prototype, it's just a much smaller market to sell multimillion dollar modules to.

True words. T3+ (especially T4) price is really much more dependent on research than anything else.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Celebro wrote:

This change will make it easier for new players to manufacture and sell T1 items. As hard as it is for new players, this advantage far outweighs other issues.

I am always in favour of, if you need materials; mine it or buy it from someone that mines that takes risks.

We don't need another eve, where around 70% or so of the commodities used come from recycled loot or npc drones. What meaning does this give to the miner?

What's the point in making t1 crap anyways, besides maybe sensor amps, sheilds and sheild hardeners? There's maybe a handful of people in the game that this change will benefit and in the very short term, because as soon as they decide that t1 crap is just that, and want to make higer teir crap, then they're in the same boat they were when they wanted to make t1 crap that requires espitium.

This mechanic has been in place all along, and hasn't made mining unnessicary yet. I don't think anyone's done recycling on a scale large enough to produce much of anything and certinaly not enough to become independent of the need to mine ores. My main source of income in this game is mining, I wouldnt want that to become irrelevant at all.

So now, you can produce t1 crap for next to nothing, but it still just an added benefit to the guy that goes out and farms for his nic. You start selling your t1 demobs on the market for what it costs you to make it (which as a noob -- who this change is intended for -- will be much higher then higher EP guys) and the combat guy repairs his loot and sells it on the market for less. But guess what? The guys that are buying t1 demobs aren't buying them anymore, BECAUSE THEY COST *** TO PRODUCE, so the market gets saturated with t1 demobs. It's cutting your nose off to spite your face.

69 Reply by Smokeyii (edited by Smokeyii 2011-07-28 01:27:07)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

double post ftl

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

What if espitium was recycled from fragments instead of modules?

Balanced via type and volume to make the yeild about what it is now. (removed from T1 modules).

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

The point in making T1 "crap" cheaper to manufacture is to give new indy players one set of items they can produce for the market. Right now they can't compete - lack of funds means no research and low EP means very high costs on a few items they do know how to make. This change gives them something they can sell at small profit while they gain enough market knowledge, EP and capital to graduate to T2 stuff.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

That's a good idea Arga.

Would be a nice compromise for everyone, and I'm not currently seeing any downsides to that. Would actually be a pretty good buff for combat farmers in the form of nic as people would buy fragments for the purpose of recycling. When I was in RG there were thousands upon thousands of them that were recycled. There's not much of a market for them now because of the vast supply.

73 Reply by Jack Jombardo (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-28 03:54:07)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Norrdec wrote:

I would still need to mine it on alpha or recycle it there, so that would mean a lot more hauling. Not worth it then. Not worth it now.

But having epriton from alpha dwelling and people admitting that 70% of the espitium comes from farming is broken.

But you can Mine Trit without any risk (well, very low risk of arche-scan-spawns) while Epri can NOT be farmed without risk. And as your Corp lives on Beta, they know how to protect you when you haul your mined Trit. Absolut no problem (except beeing to lazy to do it).

And where did someone "admitted" that 70% of the Epri comes from farming? Noone did it!

So yes, you are right, the system is broken .... but to your favor!

Norrdec wrote:

Want some T2? Mine epriton on beta.

So you say: Go with your noob T1 stuff and try to survive on Beta where you have to fight T4 guys in shine Heavy Mechs. And if you want more then T1 buy it from this might overlords which then can kill you again on Beta while you try to get a foot on Epri.

LOL? You REALY said this?

Guy, now I get it. All you want is a damn MONOPOL to:
a) secure no new corp has a changes to get your land
b) get even more easy targets as they NEED you or have to fight you with T1 stuff
c) secure your NIC income

FAIL!

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

All I can say in thi is I understand the fear of Alpha manufacturers at finding a stable and affordable epitron scource coming from beta.

I know I personally will be taking this into consideration as our operations expand, if this can help alleviate any fears.

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75 Reply by Jack Jombardo (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-28 04:19:04)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Winter Solstice wrote:

All I can say in thi is I understand the fear of Alpha manufacturers at finding a stable and affordable epitron scource coming from beta.

I know I personally will be taking this into consideration as our operations expand, if this can help alleviate any fears.

There would be just one think, you can do to eliminate the problem: great a NotRedDontShot area at one of the Betas

Set all this "PvP wannabes" to dark red and kill them all day long but let neutrals pass.

This way you might even find new allys, friends, fighters who are willing to join your trip!

Arga wrote:

So, good or bad for espitium users, this change will absolutely help the new producer by allowing them to make items that are desireable and don't just fall off alpha bots in droves. And it will also help PVP new players since they no longer have to spend more then the cost of a bot for one module.

No it wil not help new crafters as they will be limited to very few mods, which aren't on high demand anyway. So they can craft stuff, where they might sell 1 every week ... cool story man, this will limit their income abilitys to a non-existing MINIMUM ak worthless wast of time and EP!

And yes, it helps TO PvP (sloughter) new players as it makes it easier for you to kill them .... we got this man roll.

@DEVs
Do NOT touch the material need (and recycled materials) from T1 but tweak the MEs of all Tiers like I mentioned allready. THIS will help new players.
Removing their ability to get Epriton-Based Materials will ONLY help Beta players as they can:
a) much easier defend their land as they just need to fight small T1 fit enemys
b) increase their income of Beta Corps as then everybody MUST buy their Epri (or need to buy their OVERPRICED T2+ stuff)
and c) will increase the piracy on teleporters as every wannabe Pirate will camp their to get a shot on the next helpless T1 fit miner
.
.
.
Short: remove Epri-Based Materials from T1 recycle == NERF to new producers ++ BUFF of Beta Corps income => BAD change and 100% oposit you want to reach!

Winner: Beta corps
Losers: new players

Want this @DEVs??
.
.
.
There would be just one way to even it out again:
Disable ANY gain of Trit and T1 moduls for Beta players so they NEED to buy them from Alpha players .. and this is simply not posible as you can not control, if they go to Alpha to AFK-Miner what they need sad.