101 (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-25 06:21:59)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

AeonThePiglet wrote:

Dear Jack,

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Tnks,
AeonThePiglet

Oh I do.

I hear all your (your == PvPler) "PvP is all and everythink" ... but that's just a dream you have.

You want everyone to like the playstyle you like.
And you can't except, that most people don't like this playstyle (or sometimes like me even hate it).

But over the years, I had to except, that the common PvE causal player does not post in forums while the common "hardcore PvP player" spams every forum he can find all day long (not surprising with all the spare time they have while camping gates/porters/stations).
No wonder, most of you (you = PvPler) might belive, you are the majority ... but sorry guys, it's not true wink. You are just more vocal then PvE players.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

No jack, you misread what I said.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You say things about eve, and they are wrong. You say things about me, and they are wrong. You say things about Pak, and they are wrong.

You should stop.

103 (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-25 18:50:19)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

AeonThePiglet wrote:

No jack, you misread what I said.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You say things about eve, and they are wrong. You say things about me, and they are wrong. You say things about Pak, and they are wrong.

You should stop.

Sorry, I belive you just don't get what I say.

Check this forum for topics like "nerv XY PvE stuff" made by random PvP player (including the guys posting in this topic) and check it for "nerv XY PvP" made by random PvE player.

Every damn second post is like "nerv PvE buff PvP" and this is NOT a Perpetuum phenomen!
And many of them are "all the NIC to me and don't let anyone else get some".

I wish, there come a day, where you guys just go pewpew each other and STOP bothering us PvE player with your stuff! We don't like it and we don't want it!

Even with drobs of 1 bazilion Plasma peer NPC mech you wouldn't be happy and most PvE players still wouldn't care about PvP-lands. So just stop asking for useless buffs and play with what you get from the DEVs!

If you don't PvP just becouse you like it and you do it for fun ... well, NOT the problem of the DEVs or the PvE players!


PS: and I to understand, that as long as I don't share your opinions and as long as my name isn't see on KBs ... I'm not allowed to know what I am talking about ... nothink new *sig*.
But well, go check this name on EvE KBs and you will find a 2007 char without any lose or kill (well, maybe 1 or 2) ... do you belive, I played EvE for 4 years without any kill or lose? Very likely not! Even the second "Jombardo" you might find has nearly no kills/loses ... and both are cap-pilots and POS-Gunners.
I just NEVER post my loses and kills on KBs as they are useless e-peen stuff I don't suport. So you will never know, if I can or can not PvP wink.

All you need to know is: I hate PvP!
And with this will never suport any brainless sugestion like "more NIC for Betas". You have enough, manage to survive with it or die yarr.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

All you need to know is: I hate PvP!
And with this will never suport any brainless sugestion like "more NIC for Betas". You have enough, manage to survive with it or die yarr.

Huh? hmm

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Yeah I started with the belief that he was just a troll, and now I'm fairly certain he's insane.

Like, he's starting from a crazy assumption, builds an enormous edifice of crazy on top of it and then goes full bore crazy at the end by saying he hates PVP.

Only rational response possible: lolwut?

106 (edited by Pak 2011-07-26 03:52:22)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Jack Jombardo wrote:
Pak wrote:

I have 6 active accounts with a total of 14 characters, in EvE.

Exceptions define the normality. Or would you say 6 active accounts are "normal"?

That depends. If you speak of someone that has just started and is low on money or that play only one facet of the game, then no. In that case one or two accounts are the norm.

But if you speak of someone that, over many years, have played pretty much all the facets of such a complex game and still engages in more than one play-style, multiple accounts are the norm.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

And as you use just 2 of your 14 chars for PvP this lead to 12 chars you use for PvE.

Here someone could say, you are a hobby PvPer but mainly PvE wink 2v12 chars.
Even when you see Jita-scaming as PvP too, it's still 3v11 towards PvE.

Re-read my post. I have two characters that do the pew-pew PvP, one character that does nullsec PvP support, one that does the market PvP and one that is an industrialist (that is more PvP than PvE, even if, like marketing, does not directly involve pew-pew). That is 5 characters involved in 4 different kinds of PvP, two of which are pew-pew related and the other two are not pew-pew related. I do not do jita scamming, but I may try it sometimes as it's one of the few things I haven't yet done in EvE (the other main missing thing being wormholes).
Edit: actually there are two other things that someone would consider major and I didn't do: incursions and lvl 4 missions.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

And when you need 11(12) chars to suport your PvP ... your PvP can't be realy great yarr. Either you lose much more then you kill, or your corp/ally scams you as they get all the money and you just feed them (which is the fact for most komunist corps as the members have absolut no control, what the CEO do with the money (RMT anyone?)).

Again, I only play 5 characters regularly, and have another one that I'm just training on the sixth account. I do no PvE at all. And yet in CCP statistics I look like living mostly in hisec. My point was: numbers in hisec is not related to numbers not involved in PvP.

I use 1 character to "support" PvP in nullsec. Doing cyno and hauling. Arguably I use some of the money from my trader to support PvP and my industrialist also heavily relies on my trader. However I use those money because I have them. Most nullsec players make some money with ratting. I do not need to do that, my trader makes more than I'll ever need. Also most industrialists either also become traders or use the services of a trader. As I already play both ways it just makes sense for me to synergize with myself.

There's no corp scam and no matter the kill/loss ratio you'll always spend isk if you PvP. You may kill more than you lose, but you are not going to loot more than you lose. Corp/ally provides refunds for most of the expenses, but not all. Instead of covering the rest with ratting I cover the rest with my trader. Because I have it.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

Anyway, with 6 active accounts, you don't represent the majority as CCP again published numbers, where the average player had around 1,xx acc. So the Majority had between 1 and 3 accounts.

I have no idea what the average is. But here is one interesting thing for you: I have 6 accounts, but in CCP statistics I will appear as 6 players with one account. Ponder a minute about the implications in terms of the real average number of accounts.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

I know, how hard PvP want everyone to love/like/do PvP. But sorry guys, most players just want to relax and do some NPC-pewpew and do some coop-gaming.

I've met hundreds of PvE players and noobs that never went outside hisec. Hundreds. And 100% of those that accepted to try and come for a four hours "class" that explained them how to do things and then took them to 0.0 for a roam in a well organized fleet ended up saying it was the most fun they ever had in EvE. All of them.

I had seen it first in Agony's PvP Basic classes and then did some similar stuff with my corp for people we knew (through our national ingame channel) that could not speak English and therefore would not be able to join an Agony class.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

For me PvP died long time ago when people started to e-peen with killboards

This I agree. Mitix probably did the worst thing possible for PvP in Perpetuum. On the other hand this is what people want. Therefore, in this sense, he did the best thing he could ever do for Perpetuum PvPers.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

That was the point, when FAIR PLAY and RESPECT died .....

This I do not agree. Fair play is for sport, not for PvP. Respect is for a good fighter, not for a fair fighter.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

But as you PvP guys like to mention it that often: it is sandbox, people are free to do what THEY want.
-> if people do not want to PvP they should be free, to NOT have to do it.
If they do not want to be FORCED into PvP ... sandbox has to allow them to avoid PvP by 100% and still be competetive!

Agreed. That's why EvE provides multiple competitive play styles that do not require you to undock. The only glitch in terms of forced PvP there is in EVE is a wrong label in the neocom. They really should re-lable "undock" into "enter PvP".

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

107

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

And with this will never suport any brainless sugestion like "more NIC for Betas". You have enough, manage to survive with it or die yarr.

Where did you see anyone asking for more NIC for betas? If anything the main problem in Perpetuum is that PvPers living in Betas are in self-sufficient corps that have nearly no use for the *** of NIC the make (not to mention all those that they do not make but could if they wanted).

I'm a noob in Perpetuum, therefore I may be wrong. But I've got the idea that the problems in Perpetuum (at least in terms of economy) are:

- there's nothing you can do in beta that you cannot do in alfa except pew-pew another player (good reason to go there, but not sufficient to live there as you can go there even if you live in alfa) and mine one single resource (again something you could do by going there, no need to live there). As a consequence living in beta is not a necessity. It may be a convenience because of the NIC income and better outpost facilities. But if you do not NEED the extra NIC income nor the extra industrial efficiency, there's no point in living there. It may be an advantage. But it seems it's currently neither a necessity nor a sufficiently strong advantage.

- there is no need and not even sufficient incentive (advantage) for those living in betas to sell and buy (that is trade) outside their corp. That implies no strong need for NIC. Nothing they NEED is best done on alfas in a way that is inconvenient for them to do. The only thing they "miss" is ONE resource. And they do not really miss it as they can just come mine it in on alfas.

I do not think anyone is asking for more NIC on betas. No one. They are asking for reasons to live on betas. Not for NIC. As NIC is both plentiful and nearly useless for those living on betas.

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Why does beta need incentives to live there if there are no drawbacks? What are the drawbacks to living on beta if you like PvP? PvP coming to your doorstep is not sufficient incentive?

What kind of incentives are we talking about? AFK mining facilities (NIC)? More efficient production facilities (NIC)? Higher plasma drops from rats (direct NIC)?

109

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Mammoth wrote:

Why does beta need incentives to live there if there are no drawbacks? What are the drawbacks to living on beta if you like PvP? PvP coming to your doorstep is not sufficient incentive?

What kind of incentives are we talking about? AFK mining facilities (NIC)? More efficient production facilities (NIC)? Higher plasma drops from rats (direct NIC)?

I cannot (and most importantly do not want to) talk about what the incentives and drawbacks are in Perpetuum. Both because I'm a noob in this game and because ... the currently do not exist and I'm not a game designer for AC.

But I can tell you what some of the important ones are in EVE.

- you can manufacture stuff in 0.0 that you cannot manufacture in hisec. But the production facilities that do that are destructible and you may lose them and all the material in them if you do not defend.
- the best AFK material faucets are only accessible there. Exploiting them require you to build destructible infrastructure, maintain it and defend it. That infrastructure used to be part of the very mechanism of territorial control.
- it is inconvenient to go to the richest areas of 0.0 from hisec (and go to hisec from the richest areas of 0.0), therefore if you want to be there you'd better live there.
- faster and easier travel (thanks to destructible infrastructure) if you control the territory.
- powerful ships cannot come in hisec, can only be build in 0.0 and cannot dock.

These are some of them. NONE provides you money. In fact most of them require you to spend money. One provides material, and selling that material in hisec is one of the major ways to make the money you need for all the others.

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

110 (edited by Mammoth 2011-07-26 06:22:10)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

It's all material benefit, and material benefit can be turned into NIC. I mean, that's what NIC is. A stick used to measure the value of goods and services. The stick differs in length according to how much NIC is in the game, but it's still the same thing.

Most of those things amount to a monopoly on certain production and better time efficiency, both of which are directly equivalent to currency.

Out of all the items in the list, the only non 'NIC' benefit to living in 0.0 rather than travelling to 0.0 is that it's inconvenient to move back and forth. If people want to PvP, they need to be on beta, so perhaps that's a good option. I don't think it is, but the rest amount to giving a handout to the most powerful corps in the game, which does little to increase competition over these islands.

111

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Mammoth wrote:

It's all material benefit, and material benefit can be turned into NIC. I mean, that's what NIC is. A stick used to measure the value of goods and services. The stick differs in length according to how much NIC is in the game, but it's still the same thing.

Most of those things amount to a monopoly on certain production and better time efficiency, both of which are directly equivalent to currency.

Out of all the items in the list, the only non 'NIC' benefit to living in 0.0 rather than travelling to 0.0 is that it's inconvenient to move back and forth. If people want to PvP, they need to be on beta, so perhaps that's a good option. I don't think it is, but the rest amount to giving a handout to the most powerful corps in the game, which does little to increase competition over these islands.

If you define money as the unit of measure of value (that's what the stick is called technically: unit of measure) than by definition any value can be expressed in terms of your currency. Therefore yes: making living on beta more convenient means giving it more value and this may be expressed in NICs.

Even the conveniency of not needing to travel there can be expressed in terms of currency. And in fact it can even be directly translated to currency: that's called renting.

But there's a big difference between giving value and giving currency.

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

112 (edited by Mammoth 2011-07-26 12:59:22)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Ah yes, of course, I didn't consider the fact that the other bonuses mean that easy access to those bonuses is a material bonus in itself.

At least we know we are in fact talking about providing material bonuses as incentives. This does little to encourage direct competition, and in fact works to oppose it. If team A has 10 mechs and team B has 20 mechs, you're not going to encourage team A to participate in a conflict by giving team B the resources to build another pair of mechs.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Mammoth wrote:

Why does beta need incentives to live there if there are no drawbacks? What are the drawbacks to living on beta if you like PvP? PvP coming to your doorstep is not sufficient incentive?

What kind of incentives are we talking about? AFK mining facilities (NIC)? More efficient production facilities (NIC)? Higher plasma drops from rats (direct NIC)?

Lots of people don't earn their money in eve 0.0 because it's easier to have a carebear account with pimped out gear running missions in hisec.

Alliance level assets like moons just need to be fueled and defended when rf'd, you don't need to live near them which is why tons of 0.0 alliances control moons in lowsec territory.

Biggest advantage of holding space is indeed convenient travel within it.

Industry in eve nullsec is mostly an afterthough, with caps and supers the only things really built out there. Stations too back in the day, but anyone setting up a station now is cray cray. Transport of minerals and finished goods cheaper if you do it with a hisec Indy alt corp. When minerals are needed, they're compressed into modules that provide more volume in minerals than they take up and jf'd out to null; same with finished mods.

How do you make living in beta viable? Dunno. All I know is I see a ton of guys with outposts doing their thing in alpha. And that we have all the convenience of a beta by living on our a2 and getting the good stuff from next door.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Umm a few comments I guess.

@Strongbad ... some thinking may be required to play this game.

@Snowman ... you dont have to gtfo if you dont play in a group, thanks for your opinion.

I play solo. I can kill spawns and get fat loots. Nothing was given to me, I have learned by asking questions and getting my bots blown up and adjusting tactics and fits.

PvE is fine and enjoyable and profitable. Just my opinion of course. Perp (and EvE) provide the sandbox to play in and the areas to earn resources. They can set conditions for PvP but ultimately its the players themselves and how they react to each other that makes or breaks the entertainment. Its a simple nessecity that an MMO needs both (areas and playstyles) in order to survive.

And when I learn PvP it will be the same way, by having bots blown up and adjusting tactics.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

AeonThePiglet wrote:

Yeah I started with the belief that he was just a troll, and now I'm fairly certain he's insane.

Like, he's starting from a crazy assumption, builds an enormous edifice of crazy on top of it and then goes full bore crazy at the end by saying he hates PVP.

Only rational response possible: lolwut?

Well, then I'm "crazy" too... ^^  If I had to measure my interest in MMO PvP it would likely end up being in negative numbers... ^^  The current direction I see Perpetuum going, does not bode well for the PvE faction (such as it is at this late date).

With the Dev's continuing to play musical chairs with the spawns (breaking spawn maps that take quite a bit of time to create in the first place), the nerf to plasma and other such, its becoming obvious that PvE is, and will remain at best a secondary (if that) focus. Its too bad really, as this game really needs both to survive.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Wraithbane wrote:

The current direction I see Perpetuum going, does not bode well for the PvE faction

Go over the last patch notes and see how much is specifically pve related and how much is specifically pvp related.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

BandwagonX9000 wrote:
Wraithbane wrote:

The current direction I see Perpetuum going, does not bode well for the PvE faction

Go over the last patch notes and see how much is specifically pve related and how much is specifically pvp related.


You mean stuffs like the awesome plasma drop nerf?

Or maybe how all the non mission spawns are moving toward these new random mob spawns so new players have a harder time with pve since they can't properly fit themselves to face a specific bot type and will now have bots thrown at them they are not equipped to take?

Ya good stuffs.

IMO the random mob spawns specifically should be an alpha 2 and beta island feature.

The plasma nerf means new corps/players will take even longer to get themselves into competitive levels of equipment and have a harder time re-equiping after death.  I do not see this nerf lowering the prices of equipment much as those who already have money can afford to keep buying stuff at its present prices.  The plasma nerf was unneeded and will only contribute to further decreasing the pvp action as death is now even more costly.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Plasma nerf?

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Change: Rebalanced NPC plasma drops: the set amount of plasma in loot now follows more closely the time it takes to kill a specific NPC.

This.

Maybe the plasma drops for mechs and top tier lights/assaults has increased from this, I don't know myself as I cant take them yet.  What I do know is the T3 lights and assaults I can farm now average out to 25 - 50% less than I was making before the change.

120

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Hmm sounds like an adjustment ... not a nerf. I don't know how much plasma a T3L NPC drops now but let's face it: they pop with 1 salvo. Ammo swallower like Hmechs give tons of plasma now. They are not really hard to kill ... simply take more time and ammo.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

I run 5x T4 small lasers and a T4 small launcher on my Bapho with 2x T4 Laser tuners and the T3L I farm take 4-5 salvos to kill.  My lasers are currently 198% damage.  The T3A take even more salvo's to kill.

My point remains however.  Between the triangle nerf(which I personally stopped doing after my first month cause I couldn't stand how mind numbingly dull it was) and the plasma drop "adjustment" it will take newer players even longer to make any decent money and be able to afford decent equips.  Since going to pvp in T1 gear is almost guaranteed suicide all these changes do is lengthen how much time will be required by newer players to feel they can "afford" to go pvp.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Robophiliac wrote:

I run 5x T4 small lasers and a T4 small launcher on my Bapho with 2x T4 Laser tuners and the T3L I farm take 4-5 salvos to kill.  My lasers are currently 198% damage.  The T3A take even more salvo's to kill.

My point remains however.  Between the triangle nerf(which I personally stopped doing after my first month cause I couldn't stand how mind numbingly dull it was) and the plasma drop "adjustment" it will take newer players even longer to make any decent money and be able to afford decent equips.  Since going to pvp in T1 gear is almost guaranteed suicide all these changes do is lengthen how much time will be required by newer players to feel they can "afford" to go pvp.

Exactly. The Dev's seem to be shooting themselves in the foot here.  Its going to take longer for new players to get up to speed, and in the process we are likely to lose a larger percentage of them. Its also going to take longer to replace bots lost in PvE or PvP. I really have no idea what they are attempting to achieve here.

I suspect we are seeing a version of whats known as Ghostcrawler Syndrome (way too much focus on spread sheets and data mining, and not nearly enough on what makes a game fun to play).

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

NPCing as a new player is made all the harder because I see them choosing the wrong spawns to farm.

The experienced players know the more profitable locations and have better fittings. The best idea is to join a corp and farm with them for a cut of the profit. This also teaches you a lot. I do regular farming and often offers others join in if they need NIC. smile

124 (edited by Error 2011-08-28 12:23:38)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Robophiliac wrote:

I run 5x T4 small lasers and a T4 small launcher on my Bapho with 2x T4 Laser tuners and the T3L I farm take 4-5 salvos to kill.  My lasers are currently 198% damage.  The T3A take even more salvo's to kill.

Hmm let me guess: you're fighting Pelistal Bots?
...

But yes it becomes harder and harder for newer player to progress in every way in relation to older players (ok except 1 EP per minute for all^^). Competing with advanced industrialists, advanced PvPer (EP, fitting), advanced and completed research and so on. We see a lot of nerfs these days - and almost always affecting newer players majorly.
But since there are no new players anymore ... not a big problem at all sad

edith: less typos now

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

error - how the hell does it become harder to progress in relation with the latest changes?

i mean, i farmed my combat relation up to 10% with a few mission runs.
newer industrials can now raise their relation bonus to 15% in a few missions (about 20 production missions), and next patch will introduce lvl2 production missions for further advancement.

Production of T1 items got nearly 100% cost reduction, especially Ammo.
Mining yields rare isotopes that slightly increase your yield/minute with less hauling needed.

small mining/harvesting bots got buffed.

And Observer Kernel drop "nerf" doesn't afffect "new" players in any way. Show me the observer farming noob, or the one who could afford to buy them on market anyway?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear