76 (edited by Pak 2011-07-21 13:59:52)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

takes a *** to know a *** & since winter is a women that leaves just you as the *** smile

See? She's so valiant that they call her "a women".

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

NEX, united in :***:

FYI we didn't even really bother to ct them. Jewsquad took one look at the game, lol'd and broke indy. We use more bots in a day than are in that can, hell we use more on most wknd roams. As our pvp shouty guy, I'm doing my part to stimulate demand and build a market!

As far as us being united, as a TEST and previously as a Goon brarara, I'd have shot 99% of the Corp (and trolled them after) had they wandered into our space. I've tried to pass on the best parts of those corps to NEX, but we are our own thing without question.

Back to pve we badly need a loot logger and more group support for missions. The rat change supports groups well and we need more of it, but right now there just isn't much variety in pve content. Still better than eve, but not quite there. Would love if if the intrusion stuff was ported over, that was some cool ish. Also the wormhole stuff. Would love to see corps able to enter a freaky island with a mobile entrance where they can set up shop and do their own thing unless someone else finds the door and burns it all down.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

The problem is that PvE is too confusing. Item / Weapon stats require an encyclopedia to determine their efficiency. One cannot simply join the game, do the tutorial, and start to enjoy it. To be efficient and avoid stress from dying too much, they must research what bot to get, where to put ep, what to hunt, where to hunt it, how to hunt it, and so on.

It's far too much work imo. When I first started I made a logistics character since I wanted to be different. Boy, was that a mistake since logistic characters don't do anything. I got my rep really high and made a decent amount of money, so I subbed another account for a combat character. To make a long story short, I lost about 9mil because I got demob'd and couldn't move.

I like complexity, but making things too complex just becomes frustrating to gamers. Things have to be fun, too. I'm lost on what to do now with my time in the game since I can't seem to do anything with my logistics character but build up EP for an alt on the same account.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Arga wrote:

What's the issue, PVE is carebear content anyway, as long as your PVP stays difficult does it really even effect you?

Sorry for late reply.

/me takes deep breath

how does it effect me?.. or rather how does it effect pvpers?

.. well, by sounds of things your not an Eve player, in Eve PvP, or rather 'veterans' tend to hate Carebears because the Devs make changes to the game for keep carebears happy, these changes inevitably effects them,  dumbing down, making things easier... and just making the whole pvp thing shallow.  I'll not sight specifics.

But the biggest part of the big reason that Eve players are so damn angry right now, its because CCP are showing that they are spending almost ALL their resources and the resources to develop PvE content!   Whilst the state of PvP content is in DESPERATE need of attention!

Eve built its success off the back of pvp! and the dedication and loyalty of Eve veterans who have now basically had enough and sick to the core that CCP have for years ignored PvP features that are broken and bugged to pander to the crying, moaning population of carebears.

Faction warfare is a classic example of PvP content that was added... and left, they specifically said that they wernt working on it because of working on 'other projects'

Whats worse is that it all seems to be done to make money for other games!

Dont get me wrong, I like PvE too, anything thats challenging and interactive is great and PO does need a lot of work, its still a new game from an indy team afterall (much like eve was to begin with)  but the more you dumb down content and make it soloable, the more it becomes expected... its a slippery slope.

so far the pve changes are good.. because they encourage group activity and I give +1 internets to the Devs for recognizing that and hope that any pve work continues in that fashion.

And thats why it kinda hits a nerve when players are cropping up trying to make a fuss about dumbing down the game just because they dont have any friends or are socially inadequate.

Whilse NeX style does encourage independence, people still get together in small groups for mutual benefit.. and and sure that style will work for them and that its members still feel part of a whole and not part of a tax income

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Farrington wrote:

The problem is that PvE is too confusing. Item / Weapon stats require an encyclopedia to determine their efficiency. One cannot simply join the game, do the tutorial, and start to enjoy it. To be efficient and avoid stress from dying too much, they must research what bot to get, where to put ep, what to hunt, where to hunt it, how to hunt it, and so on.

It's far too much work imo. When I first started I made a logistics character since I wanted to be different. Boy, was that a mistake since logistic characters don't do anything. I got my rep really high and made a decent amount of money, so I subbed another account for a combat character. To make a long story short, I lost about 9mil because I got demob'd and couldn't move.

I like complexity, but making things too complex just becomes frustrating to gamers. Things have to be fun, too. I'm lost on what to do now with my time in the game since I can't seem to do anything with my logistics character but build up EP for an alt on the same account.

Why on earth you took out a nine mil bot (a mech most like) on your first time in real pve combat idk. That's the single dumbest thing a newbie can do. If you haven't got any experience with an element of the game, keep your costs low while you experiment. Duhurr.

So far I've lost one light bot in pve, entirely because I wasn't paying attention and didn't notice the rest of the op had gone afk. I have since solo'd l3 assaults in my Bapho with no trouble using t1 gear and a lot of caution.

PvE, not hard once you get a little practice. Much harder when you take in a poorly fit mech against targets you don't know anything about and just assume you'll win because you're in a biggabot. Would you take a bs into lowsec with faction gear the first time you pvp'd? No, not unless you've got more ego than brain.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

yup yup, that whole know your enemy really pays off, I was working on a new toon on New Virginia last night and while a Castel can do okay with 2-3 1st star havocs a prometheus can take like 6 of them on all at the same time while eating though each one in under a couple of seconds. because of the damage output and armor weakness.

you really dont have to have a encyclopedia to play the game you only need it for pvp, in pve you can make allot of mistakes in pve you can screw up your build big time and still be effective in pve.

pve is easy the hard part is the devs making pve challenging with out breaking pvp

Also in every game i played with pvp and pve, the carebear pvpers always end up ruining the game for the pvp players.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Xyberviri wrote:

Also in every game i played with pvp and pve, the carebear pvpers always end up ruining the game for the pvp players.

This statement really depends on the 'game' that your're playing, and by that I mean the style of play your engaging in. If your idea of PVP is jumping out from behind a tree, roboganking, and corpse sitting some dude out trying to complete a quest; then yes I agree, carebears are always trying to ruin that for you.

See, the issue here is the perception that Perpetuum is just a PVP-Fight game. Sure it could become that, in fact it almost went that way, as 60% of the carebear population left within a few months of launch. But that also made getting bots too much of a grind, so 60% of the PVP'ers also left after that.

Posture and bluster if you want, but the game needs both types of players to be great, so the devs have to balance the content releases accordingly; which means both sides have to wait longer to get anything too.

You could easily replace "PVE" in the title with "PVP".

Just as I make cases against PVE changes that I feel would make PVP worse, like Auto-targeting, not every PVE change does, just like I support PVP changes that make it better, even if it's not an improvement for PVE. Carebear or PVP you can't let yourself get so myopic that the trees block your view of the whole system.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

As an aside: Of course everything I do is for my own gain.  We are captialist.  I am at the top of the food chain.  Nom **ing nom nom nom. 

Welcome to e..... Perpetuum.

----
I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Wait, are you eating the chain? I'm unclear of the Nom-ee.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Xyberviri wrote:

you really dont have to have a encyclopedia to play the game you only need it for pvp, in pve you can make allot of mistakes in pve you can screw up your build big time and still be effective in pve.

Wut? Also, I can't find you on a kb? So how would you know?

I mean, I've got maybe a quarter of my activity on there (all of it posted by other people), and I'm terrible, but I'm on the board. Not being on there at all means, uh, either you don't on this guy or you don't at all. Which is it?

Because I don't think you have a right to smack on pve when, uh, you pve all the time and don't pvp.

pve is easy the hard part is the devs making pve challenging with out breaking pvp

Wut? How on earth would changing anything in pve change anything in pvp? You don't need to touch the mods or the bots when you can just mess with the rats, add missions and make mining less awful.

Also in every game i played with pvp and pve, the carebear pvpers always end up ruining the game for the pvp players.

I find it's usually the *** who ruin the game.

86

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

AeonThePiglet wrote:

Wut? How on earth would changing anything in pve change anything in pvp? You don't need to touch the mods or the bots when you can just mess with the rats, add missions and make mining less awful

Simple example from recent discussions. PvE players want targeting computer to auto-primary the next targeted enemy when the current target explodes. They see no reason not to do it. It will help PvE and you cannot get any similar effect by messing with the rats.

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Eve has a lock back feature. You can disable it. If it's a menu option, it doesn't matter.

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Kamikazie wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:

Yeh I don't know what you're doing wrong, I farm t3L and T3A no problems in my arbalest, not even been playing for a month.

Did you earn all your nic by your self and buy your bt and all its fittings or did people along the way help you. The u derlying issue seems to be the solo pve experience. Yes yes we all know its an mmo, but no where in the definition of mmo does it say you need to play as a group.. people who stay solo are experiencing issues, not those players who join the perpetuum version of goonswarm.

Yes, I did earn all that solo. It's not hard so long as you don't waste EP trying to get into a mech you can't use properly in your first couple of days.

And yes, it's now t4 fit, I'm sitting on about 30mil NIC, and I've got about 500 t3 kernels stockpiled.

Fail at PvE = Fail at life, it's so simple your slightly *** cousin could do it

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Arga wrote:
Xyberviri wrote:

Also in every game i played with pvp and pve, the carebear pvpers always end up ruining the game for the pvp players.

Posture and bluster if you want, but the game needs both types of players to be great, so the devs have to balance the content releases accordingly; which means both sides have to wait longer to get anything too.

Yes, I agree too.  PvE is very much needed because as exciting as PvP is, there is never pvp 100% of the time.  And of course a corporation must also work for the resources.

After all, obtaining resources to fund a war effort is PART of the pvp, its an (in-direct) competition over resources...  Even playing the market is a form of pvp.

but what DOES ruin PvP is when the PvE becomes SOLO CONTENT.  Thats the point at which everything breaks.

Every complaint about PvE so far as been some idiot who cant solo.  (oh look someone has just made another thread about it) roll

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Kamikazie wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:

Yeh I don't know what you're doing wrong, I farm t3L and T3A no problems in my arbalest, not even been playing for a month.

Did you earn all your nic by your self and buy your bt and all its fittings or did people along the way help you. The u derlying issue seems to be the solo pve experience. Yes yes we all know its an mmo, but no where in the definition of mmo does it say you need to play as a group.. people who stay solo are experiencing issues, not those players who join the perpetuum version of goonswarm.

Yes, I did earn all that solo. It's not hard so long as you don't waste EP trying to get into a mech you can't use properly in your first couple of days.

And yes, it's now t4 fit, I'm sitting on about 30mil NIC, and I've got about 500 t3 kernels stockpiled.

Fail at PvE = Fail at life, it's so simple your slightly *** cousin could do it

You know 500 kernels isn't gonna do you any good but could help our proto right? Who consumed 30k mech kernels in a single day and still isn't done?

Also, pvp, wai I no seez you wit all dem monies.

91 (edited by Pak 2011-07-22 15:36:14)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

AeonThePiglet wrote:

Eve has a lock back feature. You can disable it. If it's a menu option, it doesn't matter.

What's that got to do with it? I was not talking of lock back. I was talking of selecting the primary among targets you have already locked. EvE does it, but it's inconsequential to PvP in EvE because EvE lets you fire to different targets and the overview in eve visualizes your module activation not your primaring.

Edit: just to clarify, I'm not saying that the mechanic cannot be changed in a way that enhances PvE without damaging PvP. However if done the way the PvE people asked for, it would effectively damage PvP. And to do it without damaging PvP it would need to change the way PvP works right now. Therefore it's a valid example to counter your earlier statement.

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

No it isn't. Lockback is a pve feature that can be disabled with a check box. In this case it'd be a menu option: auto primary next target in list (yes/no)

Pve and pvp are not in direct conflict. Perfect example: mob ewar. Bad suggestion: buff anti-ewar mods. This hurts pvp and is dumb. Good suggestion: nerf mob ewar usage.

Most problems in pve can be fixed with changes to mobs rather than gear or optional menu items. This ain't rocket science.

93 (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-23 04:32:44)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Snowman wrote:

But the biggest part of the big reason that Eve players are so damn angry right now, its because CCP are showing that they are spending almost ALL their resources and the resources to develop PvE content!   Whilst the state of PvP content is in DESPERATE need of attention!

First: No, this is not the reason.
Monocel for 3 month worth of gametime or ~36,-€ is the reason for the anger.
(which is indeed a BAD joke! An item, which just you and only you can see and just, if you turn around the camara and focus on your face ... witch is not even posible)
And the next hit in the face was the comment from CSM member (Mitani?? a well know RMTer and scamer) "there are enough stupidly rich custumers who are stupid enough to buy *** like golden battleships for $10.000,- real money".

Second:
Well, in their quarter reports CCP once published some interesting numbers. It was about the population of the different secure sectors. My numbers aren't accurate but it was like:
- 0.05% wormholes
- 1% lowsec
- 5% nullsec (and this includes all the mining/ratting bots!!)
- 93.95% highsec

What does this numbers tell us?
The absolut majority of players do NOT want to PvP!

When we compare this numbers to forum activitys we see: PvP players just cry louder then PvE players wink (are much more active on forums). And for most PvP players you can say, they are much more aggresive at the forums then PvE players.
Just compare how many "nerf PvP/Beta" threads and how many "nerf PvE/Alpha" threads you find at the forums cool. PvE players don't care to much about the playstyle of PvP players while PvP player allways try to force PvE player into PvP equal if they like it or not!

If you would be CCP or PO-DEV, whould you first try to make 6.05% of your player base happy or 93.95%?

I for my own would know it .... sorry 6.05% minority ... you lost lol.


PS: Yes, I hate PvP. But this is just a economical question. Where do you get more realy money out off. The question every company has to ask themselve. And it has nothink to do with PvP or PvE prefarences!

94 (edited by Copine Callmeknau 2011-07-23 11:22:18)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

AeonThePiglet wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Kamikazie wrote:

Did you earn all your nic by your self and buy your bt and all its fittings or did people along the way help you. The u derlying issue seems to be the solo pve experience. Yes yes we all know its an mmo, but no where in the definition of mmo does it say you need to play as a group.. people who stay solo are experiencing issues, not those players who join the perpetuum version of goonswarm.

Yes, I did earn all that solo. It's not hard so long as you don't waste EP trying to get into a mech you can't use properly in your first couple of days.

And yes, it's now t4 fit, I'm sitting on about 30mil NIC, and I've got about 500 t3 kernels stockpiled.

Fail at PvE = Fail at life, it's so simple your slightly *** cousin could do it

You know 500 kernels isn't gonna do you any good but could help our proto right? Who consumed 30k mech kernels in a single day and still isn't done?

Also, pvp, wai I no seez you wit all dem monies.

Doesn't help me? Kernel drops are over 50% of my income...
Besides I'm trying to proto as well, and I can trade my useless green kernels for the blue kernels I actually need.

You'll start seeing me in PvP ops when you arrange one for a time that doesn't cater solely to US players wink

95

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

My numbers aren't accurate but it was like:
- 0.05% wormholes
- 1% lowsec
- 5% nullsec (and this includes all the mining/ratting bots!!)
- 93.95% highsec

What does this numbers tell us?
The absolut majority of players do NOT want to PvP!

It's interesting how you interpret things the way you like.
It's not clear wether the CCP numbers are for active accounts only or fot all accounts. If they are for all accounts, than those numbers show a surprisingly low number of people in hisec. So I assume they are for active accounts only.

I know what many 0.0 and PvP players do, but I'll only speak for myself.

I have 6 active accounts with a total of 14 characters, in EvE.
- one character lives in 0.0 and spends 95% of the time in nullsec, the rest in low or hi.
- one character supports 0.0 life as a cyno and as a hauler, he lives 90% in hisec and 10% in lowsec.
- one character is a hisec pirate, he PvPs in hisec
- one character is a trader that has never left his hisec station in years, I play it only a few minutes a week, he does market PvP and earns a truckload of isks I spend in PvP with the other characters
- one character is an industrialist, he spends 99% of the time in hisec and the rest traveling to low and null moons/towers for logistics (but mostly rents logistic services from others). I also play it rarely more than a hour a week. He makes a lot of stuff I either use or sell (with the trader alt).
- the remaining 10 characters I never play them. They are in hisec. Many of them just never skilled. I sometimes use them to troll on the forums, when I do not feel like posting with the main.

In other words I'm a PvPer, mostly in nullsec but also in hisec, and if you look at the statistics of my characters about 7% of my characters will be in nullsec on average. And if I happened to fill the 4 empty character slots I have for some reason (I may fill one this summer to test the new tutorial experience, for example) that rate would go down to 5.5 percent.

I also know people with a lot of characters, all 99% of the time in hisec, that still are PvP only players (sometimes they roam nullsec or lowsec, but mostly PvP in hisec).

Not to mention the truckload of market PvPers and scam PvPers that live in hisec with all their characters. And not to mention the fact that 95% of the players I ever met in EvE, after 5 or 6 years of being there only play a few months each year and, for obvious reasons, park all their characters in hisec with +5 implants when they do not play.

There's a majority of players that do not PvP. And a majority of players that do not play beyond an year or two. But there are much more PvPers than you think.

Also there are very few that played 3+ years and did not get into PvP. PvErs play for a while and then leave. PvPers play for years, even if not continuously. That's why dumbing down EvE as they are doing now is a good short term strategy, but a bad long term one.

And the monocles are irrelevant. The pay to win specter is the problem.

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Let me start by pointing out Perpetuum is not EVE.

But, have a look:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf

Summarized: 20.5% of all characters is based out of less than high-sec. That's before alts and high-sec warfare.

On a side-note: players aren't pissed at CCP for exclusively developing PVE content. In fact, they're developing exactly no content, and whatever they do develop, is has nothing to do with flying in space. In the meantime, whatever is flying in space, is left in a downwards spiral of decay, with emergent balance issues en introducing new bugs with every technology injection (their little Carbon framework, with EVE serving as a beta platform for their new MMO).

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

I like to smell my own farts

98 (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-24 05:56:20)

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Pak wrote:

I have 6 active accounts with a total of 14 characters, in EvE.

Exceptions define the normality. Or would you say 6 active accounts are "normal"?

And as you use just 2 of your 14 chars for PvP this lead to 12 chars you use for PvE.

Here someone could say, you are a hobby PvPer but mainly PvE wink 2v12 chars.
Even when you see Jita-scaming as PvP too, it's still 3v11 towards PvE.

And when you need 11(12) chars to suport your PvP ... your PvP can't be realy great yarr. Either you lose much more then you kill, or your corp/ally scams you as they get all the money and you just feed them (which is the fact for most komunist corps as the members have absolut no control, what the CEO do with the money (RMT anyone?)).

BTW:
I mentioned, that my numbers aren't accurate. But they had been in this dimension. Move 1 or 2% from a to b.
And the numbers had been just a snapshot of a weekend primetime. So it was loged in chars.

Anyway, with 6 active accounts, you don't represent the majority as CCP again published numbers, where the average player had around 1,xx acc. So the Majority had between 1 and 3 accounts.

I know, how hard PvP want everyone to love/like/do PvP. But sorry guys, most players just want to relax and do some NPC-pewpew and do some coop-gaming.


You are right, when you say, nearly everyone with several years did some PvP. There is no way around as long as you can be FORCED to do it with all the scaming, ganking, war decs which you can not avoid. Even I did some PvP as I just had to do it.
For me PvP died long time ago when people started to e-peen with killboards, use it to become overlords and super rich RMT sellers. I loved PvP in DAoC with all the Relikt and Keep raids. And I start to hate it, when the 8-man-gangbangs startet to focus on hunting solo players and PvP beginner just to farm their realm ranks.
That was the point, when FAIR PLAY and RESPECT died .....

But as you PvP guys like to mention it that often: it is sandbox, people are free to do what THEY want.
-> if people do not want to PvP they should be free, to NOT have to do it.
If they do not want to be FORCED into PvP ... sandbox has to allow them to avoid PvP by 100% and still be competetive!

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

Dear Jack,

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Tnks,
AeonThePiglet

Re: The Dire state of PVE combat.

P.S.  I have one account, and it does PvP, PvE, and market trading.  Thanks.

----
I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.