Topic: The "Triangle" v combat missions

With one account, in a Sequer, able to take five level one missions in parallel, I can make north of 1.2 million NIC an hour.  This comes at zero expense (no ammo etc), zero risk, and no rep negatives.

Compare and contrast with running level two combat missions, which are much more demanding in terms of EP investment, where I can make between 50k - 200k NIC an hour, after taking into account mission reward and drops of plasma / modules / kernels and the cost of ammunition.  This involves some risk (especially if a Supreme Observer wanders past) and negative rep hits.

Now I accept that it will scale better as my skills improve, but in terms of EP investment and the risks involved the rewards are completely disproportionate. 

I'm not asking for the courier missions to be nerfed, but if they're not combat missions should see significantly increased rewards.  I believe that this is generally accepted by the devs, what I'd like to know is, if you can tell us, when something is likely to happen?

Thanks,


Scratch

2 (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-12 12:45:27)

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

You are going to get your rep to 1."something". The rest is the same topic said 100's times before, sorry...

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Changes are coming !

http://blog.perpetuum-online.com/posts/ … er-part-1/

but with the 'triangle' you should recognise that while the money is good the relations increase is a real drag!

the relations, or 'standings' mechanic in PO is quite different from Eve.  You cant just grind courier missions to increase your 'total faction standing' at some point you reach a cap at which point you need to do those combat missions and industry ones too !

So my suggestion is... until said summer expansion is out, to mix it up!  dont burn out on courier missions.. trying getting your relations with all corps in one faction up.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

I have noticed that despite the incredibly low payout on combat missions, the experience gain on them is quite intense. Going into level 2s with an arbalest will force you to learn basic combat tactics very quickly.

That being said... yeah. 1.5 mil+ an hour on my sequer alts is not at all unheard of for the triangle. Combats need boosted.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Level 1 transport missions are able to be completed by combat player with just the combat bot. Apply 7k EP for sequar and combat pilot can do up to level 4 transport missions.

Indy player can not complete level 2 and above combat missions without putting as many EP into combat as a combat player would need.

All 4 of the active 'omg transport ruining game' threads all seem to miss that point.

Yes, you can make more NIC doing transport mission than combat mission, but no one is prohibited from doing so.

If you want 'Equal Balance' and the same payout for either type of mission, then you also have to figure out a way either for both combat and indy to do combat assignments or so that each can only do their assignments.

This is the same for all mission types, including mining, scanning ect.

Unless 'balanced' means combat characters get their choice of ALL assignments with equal compensation, while indy players are locked out of bounty/recover missions?

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Alpha island sites will quickly run out of room if combat missions are buffed. Space is big, islands are small, there just isn't enough room on existing islands in perpetuum to create eve style pseudo-instance for every missioner.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

I just wanted to add, that NIC/Hr is not the same as mission payouts. And as previously stated, devs are going to reduce the time for combat missions, which will increase the NIC/hr without needing to change the payout amounts.

The part that again is misunderstood, is that you can run 2, 3 or more alts on transport missions. That's not possible on combat missions, but I'm not sure that it's appropriate to balance combat payout NIC/hr for single accounts with players running multiple accounts. That will make the transports for single accounts 'under paid'.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Anyone that is *** about the amount of money the "golden triangle" is paying compared to combat missions need to harden the fup, and if you want combat missions then run the triangle and then go out to beta with mechs funded by the proceeds and PvP. Nic balance doesn't matter when all you are doing is going from NPC spawn to NPC spawn wasting ammo on in-game distractions instead of heading to a beta and placing that ammo where it belongs, in the side of a player controlled mech that is not in your squad.

You PvE'rs have no idea how much I wish I played this game when I could PvP flag and kill you while you were doing a "combat" mission. Go to betas and do some real combat you pansy.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Krall wrote:

Anyone that is *** about the amount of money the "golden triangle" is paying compared to combat missions need to harden the fup, and if you want combat missions then run the triangle and then go out to beta with mechs funded by the proceeds and PvP. Nic balance doesn't matter when all you are doing is going from NPC spawn to NPC spawn wasting ammo on in-game distractions instead of heading to a beta and placing that ammo where it belongs, in the side of a player controlled mech that is not in your squad.

You PvE'rs have no idea how much I wish I played this game when I could PvP flag and kill you while you were doing a "combat" mission. Go to betas and do some real combat you pansy.

lol

Welcome to a game that doesn't use PvE vs PvP fits.

So; "don't gripe about my 100% safe non-combat NIC making on alpha islands!" ...

When the mech can be fit for PvE and PvP -- not either/or -- why come off that beta island? 

Oh, I forgot - you don't like risk for making NIC and anything that might make it more worth your time to risk it out there -- bad idea eh?

How's the gate camping going?  I hear some of you folks are back to trying that here too.  Not so hot?  Hmmm...  Maybe go off and see about doing some NPC's for a bit to kill the time.  Oh yeah, risk...  I forgot.

You are one hell of a funny PvP'yar...

---------------------
As for the topic at hand - this loop needs a nerf, not buffs elsewhere.  I thought buffs at first but the amount of changes required due to this would be staggering.

It was probably well designed at the start but adding highways messed it up bad.

Terminals lock for 30 seconds.  Teleports for 1 minute.  4.5 minutes lock time per run.  Double that, add a minute of lazy-mode.  10 minutes per cycle.

15 packages per loop (13 with the final drop off).  20k average per package. 188 total drop offs to finish gaming in 1 hour.

That's 1.76 million NIC per hour with zero consumption of anything to do it.

The math is pretty simple and that 1.76m is a portion of what top end skills can make. 

The only reason this is done so quickly is due to the highways.  Removal of them hurts the game as a whole.

Buffing *ALL* other income sources would be ridiculous and very time-intensive.  Even the L2-L3's don't compete with these L1's for providing income.

With respect to standings - my guy hasn't done anything but the tutorials, starters then these.  2.01-2.07 relations across the corporations.

Halve the income here and it drops to around 900k per hour.  Still healthy but it brings all other missions back into play as options - without touching them.

With respect to the combat ones and the like - yeah, some help would be appreciated but please do keep an eye on these transport missions with ANY further "speeding them up" changes.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

yea, it is odd that people complain about the fact they can make too much money in a pvp game, and yet hardly pvp at all.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

That's the first thing I noticed when I started.

Did combats for a couple days and was at like couple million then someone suggest transports and now I make 1.5 mil per hour or some *** with numlock on.

Looks like devs are addressing it soon, however, so no need to worry.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

I don't have a problem with pvp, when there's a purpose behind it.  If I just want to shoot "real people" then I'll go play any number of FPS games.....

Before I feel ready to pvp in PO I want to understand more of the mechanics, more of the structure of the game, explore different (as many as I can) aspects of it and generally see what it has to offer.  That includes combat missions.  But people are disincentivised from doing them at the moment.  That's my main point.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Scratch wrote:

That's my main point.

  And its a good point.   But thats exactly the same as a school kid saying "mum, why do I have to go to school?"

You dont see the point of it now,  but you will! yarr

Now, you can either make as much money as you possibly can until that incentive comes along,  or you can take the opportunity to roam the pvp places now, while there are no wars on and while pvp is quiet.

Just memorizing the names of teleports, where those teleports take you,  the land and the shape of the land around you... find the choke points, the places where people mine, find the mob spawns to avoid.... just getting some actual experience will give you a head start over anyone who doesnt.

You have an opportunity here and now which you may never get.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

That too is a good point :-).  Me roaming in an Ankhe != pvp :-).

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Arhke roams are 3 week old news. 

But some of our SC's are more exciteable than others, for reference.

They're all important and valuable members of NeX's crazy little community. smile

----
I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.

16 (edited by Arga 2011-07-13 18:28:15)

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Hi combat players! Just wanted to wave here from the other side of the sandbox. o/

Combat players have the OPTION of running either bounty or transport missions, while non-combat players can't.

The industrial vertical is very EP and NIC intensive. Who do you think is buying those kernels at 20,000 each? At 1.7M per hour that's 85 kernels I can buy from you, and for my reward for buying 2000 T1 kernels at 20k each? I can prototype T1 items!!! woo, wait. I can just buy them, that 21 hours of transport mission got me through step 1. But, since I'm not a combat pilot, I have no choice but to buy kernels, so moving onto T2 at omg, 35-40K each, for another 2000 is another 48 hours of transports, JUST FOR LIGHT BOTS, now I need assaults and T3, and T4 and mech, heavy mechs... T1,2,3,4!

If you cut the cost of transports, then you'll also decrease the price that indy players will pay for alpha based kernels, which means less NIC for the combat players, and the price of Bots will go up, so combat players will have to grind longer to get or replace equipment.

The average production indy type will spend almost a billion NIC just getting through the light/assaults to T4, and 10x that working through mechs.

When combat players start paying billions of NIC to forward their profession, then come talk to me about nerfing.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Marak Mocam wrote:
Krall wrote:

Anyone that is *** about the amount of money the "golden triangle" is paying compared to combat missions need to harden the fup, and if you want combat missions then run the triangle and then go out to beta with mechs funded by the proceeds and PvP. Nic balance doesn't matter when all you are doing is going from NPC spawn to NPC spawn wasting ammo on in-game distractions instead of heading to a beta and placing that ammo where it belongs, in the side of a player controlled mech that is not in your squad.

You PvE'rs have no idea how much I wish I played this game when I could PvP flag and kill you while you were doing a "combat" mission. Go to betas and do some real combat you pansy.

lol

Welcome to a game that doesn't use PvE vs PvP fits.

So; "don't gripe about my 100% safe non-combat NIC making on alpha islands!" ...

When the mech can be fit for PvE and PvP -- not either/or -- why come off that beta island? 

Oh, I forgot - you don't like risk for making NIC and anything that might make it more worth your time to risk it out there -- bad idea eh?

How's the gate camping going?  I hear some of you folks are back to trying that here too.  Not so hot?  Hmmm...  Maybe go off and see about doing some NPC's for a bit to kill the time.  Oh yeah, risk...  I forgot.

You are one hell of a funny PvP'yar...

If I had the ability to kill the NPCs on the beta islands believe me I would. I just don't have the EP backing to make my Arbalest proficient in it, and when I'm with a bunch of other people on the betas we aren't looking to kill NPCs.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Who is on that super NAP train again?

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Its no so much a triangle, but more the shape of a Flux Capacitor.  With the amount of money that you can magically generate through it, I think its a suitable name.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Arga wrote:

Level 1 transport missions are able to be completed by combat player with just the combat bot. Apply 7k EP for sequar and combat pilot can do up to level 4 transport missions.

Indy player can not complete level 2 and above combat missions without putting as many EP into combat as a combat player would need.

All 4 of the active 'omg transport ruining game' threads all seem to miss that point.

Yes, you can make more NIC doing transport mission than combat mission, but no one is prohibited from doing so.

If you want 'Equal Balance' and the same payout for either type of mission, then you also have to figure out a way either for both combat and indy to do combat assignments or so that each can only do their assignments.

This is the same for all mission types, including mining, scanning ect.

Unless 'balanced' means combat characters get their choice of ALL assignments with equal compensation, while indy players are locked out of bounty/recover missions?

Good points. The only problem being that the triangle runs another risk... That of dying of sheer boredom (much like mining)... ^^  NO Zoom, this does NOT mean we need more Observers wandering around to liven things up...<grin>  In this type of long term game, certain parts are simply going to be less entertaining than others.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

I can't belive people are b!tching about an easy, low risk -- but boring! -- way to make nic in this game. Seriously.

Your 1.7m nic per hour, with higher skills set up for running transports, is really pretty low. At higher EP spent in combat skills my combat character -- in the right bot, with the right fit and fighting the right npcs -- makes 2.5-3m per hour, pretty easy, just farming mobs. My higher EP mining character can make between 2.5-4m per hour mining the right ores. Would be much much higher mining epriton on beta.

Combat missions are kind of pointless to run, and rep is pretty pointless to grind (currently) for combat oriented characters. Production characters it's very important. And like Arga said, production toons have few options considering how important rep is for them.

People got to remember this is a sandbox. If you're not happy grinding combat mission because they seemingly pay less then transports... run transports for nic and then go pick out a nice juicy spawn and farm it for fun. Or whatever you do that you think is fun.

I gave up running missions about 4 days after Early Access came out, and I didn't run very many combat missions when I did, I mainly did geoscan missions or transports. There's plenty of other ways to make nic and be sucessful besides grinding missions, so please don't ruin an easy way for people to make a bit of nic for an hour or two so they can go out and do something they consider fun.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

I dont agree. I've farmed 1's in a Baph and the NIC about the same for me as if I did the triangle. I use cheap autocannon ammo and a double medium plate set up though. The loot and drops I take back to the outpost is roughly the same in worth and there is 0 chance the 1's are going to kill that double plated Baph.

Point A to Point B. Triangle is FotM right now. Its for building standing and allows NIC for industrial development.

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

The problem with the Golden Triangle is that, for the effort and risk you put in (Read as: Watching a movie, forum trolling, ect while alt-tabbing to maneuver on occasion, and as for the risk... just lol) you get way too much out of it. And as anyone who is still stuck on alpha islands will attest, there is just a flood of sequers doing the triangle at all hours of the day, not participating in industry, combat, or anything that helps anyone else.

I think it is insane that you can pretty much passively generate income at 1-2m/h without actually playing the game. Nerf it to hell, make other missions better, anything to stop these giant trains of haulers stretching into the sunset. Hell, even something simple like moving combat mission spawns closer to the stations you set out from could help. Or have courier missions send you to out-of-the-way outposts at random. Anything other than a boost.

20% cooler in 10 seconds flat!

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

Confirming that I'm running the triangle nonstop until the nerfbat hits it on the 22nd of August

Re: The "Triangle" v combat missions

10 minutes per cycle ? how do you people do that ? I tried to get from Asintec to Tellesis terminal and it took me good 15 minutes (ok it was the firs time for me to jump islands and use teleports after the rookie missions) but the terrain is quite varied usualy. so I doubt the 10 minutes per cycle a realistic. btw I ran with a naked arkhe so I guess a sequer can be faster.