Topic: Incursion Teleporter

We've bridged this subject before with different suggestions but I've been brainstorming a new idea that may work from a balance perspective.

This would be similar to the current emergency teleporters but it would have a 5-minute warm up, no cooldown on teleport, teleport to any target island teleporter.

This module, when placed, requires you to specify the target island. At this point there is a global message that an 'Incursion Teleporter Destination' has been detected at the specified target island.

Once the 5 minute warm up is done, mechs can teleport from this teleporter without any cooldown to ANY teleporter on the targeted island.

Obviously, this teleporter needs to be prohibitively expensive as to not be a normal roaming mechanic but instead a reserved tactic for special events, intrusions, or strategical strikes.


The number's still need some tweaking, but with the current suggestion the way it is, mechanically, all of the pieces are already in the game and I imagine could be easily implemented if it gains enough community support.



Thoughts?

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Place you where in the target island exactly? Anywhere or at a teleport of your choice?

Global message? Not everyone needs to know so if its selective message to target island only, but how hard will that be to implement I don't know.

I just think it would be better to drive undetected to target island and just avoid the warning message.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Incursion Teleporter

There is no current way to drive undetected to a target island. He stated "teleport to any target island teleporter"

Good idea although I'd rather it be silent. Why would a corp make something that announces you are coming? This is supposed to be a planet that corps from Earth send bots to gather resources.. it is not a "lets setup a playtime that everyone is aware of and we can battle then" There should be surprises for everyone everywhere all the time.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Sounds like something to bypass the Entry TP's and go directly to the internal TP closest to the intrusion outpost.

The current deployable TP system require you to access the Island first, before you can access the internal TP's.

Having the ability to bypass 50% of the Island, and attack only the outpost seems like a huge advantage. It would require the defender to cover all the TP's on the Island, not just scouts on the entry points.

This seems all positive, with no negative. I think that's why you added in the alert, but it's redundant because if this device exisits, they would have to plan the defense around an attacker using it and accessing the internal TP regardless, so that's not really a negative.

Also, for non-intrusions, if it was known that a large mining op was underway, this would be used again to put troops - without a delay between Tp's - on the OP without even the warning of coming through the entry point.

I can't see how allowing large groups to bypass the outer TP's will make PVP more interesting for anyone but those on offense. Add an equally large disadvantage for the attacking force to balance the surprise element, then it would be better.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Toku wrote:

There is no current way to drive undetected to a target island. He stated "teleport to any target island teleporter"

Good idea although I'd rather it be silent. Why would a corp make something that announces you are coming? This is supposed to be a planet that corps from Earth send bots to gather resources.. it is not a "lets setup a playtime that everyone is aware of and we can battle then" There should be surprises for everyone everywhere all the time.

I'd love to have no warning, but the timer is in place for balance. While it would be cool to just 'show up' it would leave little chance of avoiding an engagement if the target island chose to do so. From my understanding of the direction of the game, PvP is encouraged but it should never be unavoidable. Being able to drop multiple sections of a roam/fleet in on different teleporters on the same island without warning makes it near impossible to 'avoid' an engagement whilst doing everything in your power to prevent it.

Yes, i know, carebearish -- but the idea is to give more options to get on the island with little warning but not making it so strong that it becomes the only way people will go out and roam.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Arga wrote:

Sounds like something to bypass the Entry TP's and go directly to the internal TP closest to the intrusion outpost.

The current deployable TP system require you to access the Island first, before you can access the internal TP's.

Having the ability to bypass 50% of the Island, and attack only the outpost seems like a huge advantage. It would require the defender to cover all the TP's on the Island, not just scouts on the entry points.

This seems all positive, with no negative. I think that's why you added in the alert, but it's redundant because if this device exisits, they would have to plan the defense around an attacker using it and accessing the internal TP regardless, so that's not really a negative.

Also, for non-intrusions, if it was known that a large mining op was underway, this would be used again to put troops - without a delay between Tp's - on the OP without even the warning of coming through the entry point.

I can't see how allowing large groups to bypass the outer TP's will make PVP more interesting for anyone but those on offense. Add an equally large disadvantage for the attacking force to balance the surprise element, then it would be better.

The cost and timer were my ideas for creating this disadvantage. I agree on all your points except that the alert is worthless, it is key in allowing this mining op to dock up or get back to fit to fight. In 5 minutes, if they chose, they could safe-log all of their bots and log onto combats to save the can.

The cost I had in mind was something like 150 mil per module, but that is an arbitrary number and in my mind needs to be high enough to not make it worth the gamble of 'catching someone by surprise' but more appropriately used for moving larger groups of slower mechs quickly to create some ad-hoc conflicts or used as a viable strategy to lock down an island quickly.

It also creates a new dynamic to the game that isn't currently there and creates a lot of new playstyle possibilities.

Not to mention... the oft sought after nic-sink smile

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Travel time is danger time, you reduce the time your force is exposed by eliminating the march to the interior or the wait for the TP to power up after you've entered. This is even more important if you have plated mechs.

I don't think NIC cost itself is a penalty, it only creates a barrier to use.

Something like not being able to teleport or logout for 60 minutes, so you can have the offensive advantage, but not the lightning strike in-out, leaving your force vulnerable to counter attack.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Arga wrote:

Travel time is danger time, you reduce the time your force is exposed by eliminating the march to the interior or the wait for the TP to power up after you've entered. This is even more important if you have plated mechs.

I don't think NIC cost itself is a penalty, it only creates a barrier to use.

Something like not being able to teleport or logout for 60 minutes, so you can have the offensive advantage, but not the lightning strike in-out, leaving your force vulnerable to counter attack.

By that logic, the penalty for not showing up to intrusions and just signing up for every outpost is just a barrier to use and not a penalty?

Normally I tend to agree with your opinions on gameplay mechanics, however, in this case I think a hefty NIC cost IS a penalty and coupled with an early warning (5 minutes) is a significant enough penalty to make this used sparingly and in line with a specific strategy and not just for your every  day roam.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

But you don't gain any advantage by signing up for an intrusion, your simply paying for the right to compete for outpost ownership, and can show up at the intrusion without paying.

Here your specifically purchasing an significant advantage that directly effects game play. The penalties of the existing teleporters are there to offset it's advantage, the NIC cost is a secondary consideration. When the total destruction value of an intrustion is easily 100's of millions, spending 150 M upfront to gain this advantage would be money well spent. However its a barrier to entry because a few corps can afford to use it much more liberally than others. That is corps with deep pockets would be more willing to buy this advantage in something other then an intrusion than say a newer or smaller corp.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

At the moment I don't see players flocking in to beta due to the risk versus reward aspect this will makes setting up on beta even more disrupting. Though the 'penalty' you mention seems pretty hefty for some, larger wealthy corporations might gain to much of an advantage imo.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Arga wrote:

But you don't gain any advantage by signing up for an intrusion, your simply paying for the right to compete for outpost ownership, and can show up at the intrusion without paying.

There is an advantage, your enemies show up, no fight, you keep signing up and burning them out and then you go to the one that is the most winnable.

That's a large advantage that's only 'penalty' is it's nic cost.

In a roam situation, using this, will just encourage people to log off or dock up. They have 5 minutes, it only takes two.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Looking at the current Teleporter family of devices, they all have limitations placed on them.

Your adding (2) more features;

1) ability to TP between Islands
2) No cooldown between jumps

Number 2 alone, the ability to drop an entire force directly to an interior TP, then add in 1 and make it from say your own outpost, means you have 0 (zero) chance of your operation being spotted moving through all the intermediate teleports.

Moving unlimited number of bots between Islands to interior TP's is simply overpowered, even moving to edge TP's is probably OP. Maybe if it was just a few bots during the operation time, with minutes between jumps.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Arga wrote:

Looking at the current Teleporter family of devices, they all have limitations placed on them.

Your adding (2) more features;

1) ability to TP between Islands
2) No cooldown between jumps

Number 2 alone, the ability to drop an entire force directly to an interior TP, then add in 1 and make it from say your own outpost, means you have 0 (zero) chance of your operation being spotted moving through all the intermediate teleports.

Moving unlimited number of bots between Islands to interior TP's is simply overpowered, even moving to edge TP's is probably OP. Maybe if it was just a few bots during the operation time, with minutes between jumps.

How is it OP when it's announced that you're coming?

I'd imagine the normal defense strategy would be to rally at the outpost get some sensor bots around the perimiter and see what they got. What's wrong with that? 5 minutes is ample time.

It add's some suspense, around a different way to get into an island that has it's tradeoff's. Sure, you don't get scouted, but you run the risk of having the entire enemy side just docking up and you blowing 150 mil on nothing.

How is that overpowered?

Re: Incursion Teleporter

i couldnt be bothered to read it due to the CIR tag but i'd assume its some sort of mechanic to enable a large blob to move undetected or at least relatively undetected to gank mining operations? correct?

Re: Incursion Teleporter

You keep saying 5 mins is a long time, but it's nothing if your not already prepared. It takes 5 minutes just to get the squad leader to start invites, let alone fit and undock in any semblence of organization. While the offense gets as long as they want to prepare and organize.


CIR could probably use this on Titan Day to reduce Lithus transfer times. 300 Million NIC, one on each side, would save you hours of hauling. Where the 5 minute warning means nothing, since your not using it offensively.

It's over powered because it is much much more powerful then any current means of transportation in the game.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Hmmm sorry I don't like it:

1) Reduced travel time & reduced logistgics necessary. Part of the game is to get everybody in same place at same time. This seems a bit like a module that basically says: "I can login 1 min before intrusion starts, be a *** on voice comms (HEY gais what we doin lololol), and get a free ride to destiantion.

2) It eliminates supply lines for the attacker. When I can die, jump in new bot and be back in action within 1 min it severly cuts into the defenders attacker. He who has moar bots wins...

3) If it's too expensive nobody will use it, if it's too cheap it will get abused

4) Strategically placed scouts on teleports to track enemy movement is a big part of combat dynamics. This would remove it.

Sorry big_smile

This is my blob. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

I don't like the idea, but I can't see a way for it to work properly so I'll propose a counter idea I had a while back that counteracts the teleport choke point issue.

Coastal transportation.

Basically, a method of going from a coast of 1 island to the coast of another nearby.  It has limited by distance, so no going clear across the world, but far enough so you have reasonable choice of landing points.

The hard part is the how.  Id imagine it like a mobile teleport that has to be deployed 500m from the coast.  Each coast has points along the coast where the teleports "align to" to determine the possible destination points.  You activate the teleport, a map opens with the possible destinations, and you teleport there.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Neoxx wrote:

I don't like the idea, but I can't see a way for it to work properly so I'll propose a counter idea I had a while back that counteracts the teleport choke point issue.

Coastal transportation.

Basically, a method of going from a coast of 1 island to the coast of another nearby.  It has limited by distance, so no going clear across the world, but far enough so you have reasonable choice of landing points.

The hard part is the how.  Id imagine it like a mobile teleport that has to be deployed 500m from the coast.  Each coast has points along the coast where the teleports "align to" to determine the possible destination points.  You activate the teleport, a map opens with the possible destinations, and you teleport there.

Hmmm what about some sort of "ferry" or flying transport that could be intercepted, given the right gear or even static defense? Something along the lines of Normandy landing on D-Day if you know what I mean. Of course that's a little more extravagant...

Basically what this comes down to I think is that we want a way to gain access onto an island without the use of the static and easily camped teleports.

Mechwarrior style dropship with AA guns as counter? That might be cool...

This is my blob. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

19 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-07-12 03:37:05)

Re: Incursion Teleporter

These new and creative solutions are all cool and well and good, but most of them, in my eyes, would require significant amounts of new features coded to make them possible.

The suggestion I have layed forth adds some variety to the game, even if it's prohibitively expensive, that will make you look at that global message when an incursion teleporter is charging up and say... damn... someones pissed at them enough to spend a lot of money on an attempt.

For new players it will get them asking when they see the global s and the stories of the ability to, down the road, be able to lead an all out invasion of their own will certainly be something to look forward to.

If anything, it add's sand to the sand box, even if it's expensive sand that you can only play with with your golden sand toys.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Predator Nova wrote:

Hmmm sorry I don't like it:

1) Reduced travel time & reduced logistgics necessary. Part of the game is to get everybody in same place at same time. This seems a bit like a module that basically says: "I can login 1 min before intrusion starts, be a *** on voice comms (HEY gais what we doin lololol), and get a free ride to destiantion.

2) It eliminates supply lines for the attacker. When I can die, jump in new bot and be back in action within 1 min it severly cuts into the defenders attacker. He who has moar bots wins...

3) If it's too expensive nobody will use it, if it's too cheap it will get abused

4) Strategically placed scouts on teleports to track enemy movement is a big part of combat dynamics. This would remove it.

Sorry big_smile

No apology needed.

1) Sure, but at a significant cost. In my envisioning of this feature i continue to reference the expense. I would want it to be PROHIBITIVELY expensive. Using this should be the equivalant of just throwing away a few full fit t4 heavies just to get the strategical convenience of being able to drop in quickly, unscouted.

Using one of these, netting no kills, or using one and getting wiped, makes an op extremely damaging to your industry. It should hurt when you use this mechanic.

2) I don't understand how it will do anything with the supply lines for attackers -- Unless they'd want to use another one. I imagine this teleporter as being an instant teleport but only has the power to keep the link open for a short period. Maybe 1 minute TTL?

3) Sure, if it's rediculous expensive like 1 bil, no one will use it. But there's a balance for everything -- saying it's one or the other is a bit exteme

4) Yes, it is. And this will be an option to get around that at a cost. If someone uses it frivolousness, you dock up, they waist a ton of money.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

What if there will be some special bot for it? It drops some beacon a your island, tha will be entrance. Then you move your bot to a destination point and everyone can jump in. As a result you get more chances being sotted and/or intercepted => more risk. This bot can be expensive and carry no weapons, his beacons/beacon charges can weight a lots to force you having only 1 such beacon/charge. Each beacon should lead only to his owner bot to prevent any pre-arranged jumps. Beacon should stay alive until owner-bot dockup.

Have a productive day, runner!
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Re: Incursion Teleporter

Predator Nova wrote:

Something along the lines of Normandy landing on D-Day if you know what I mean. Of course that's a little more extravagant...

Basically what this comes down to I think is that we want a way to gain access onto an island without the use of the static and easily camped teleports.

Static easily camped access points like the beaches of Normandy? I know, I know, not a fair comparison. I do like the bridgehead/beachhead element of the teleporter system though. If some method was added to get 'behind enemy lines' there should be restrictions on the amount of people you can send through in a given amount of time, so harassing is possible, but completely bypassing outer defenses is not. Maybe one of those corp energy rewards could let you transport 5, maybe 10 guys. That way usage can be tracked, rather than just buying 10 of them and porting 100 guys.

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Line wrote:

What if there will be some special bot for it? It drops some beacon a your island, tha will be entrance. Then you move your bot to a destination point and everyone can jump in. As a result you get more chances being sotted and/or intercepted => more risk. This bot can be expensive and carry no weapons, his beacons/beacon charges can weight a lots to force you having only 1 such beacon/charge. Each beacon should lead only to his owner bot to prevent any pre-arranged jumps. Beacon should stay alive until owner-bot dockup.

I really like this idea, but again, requires new additions to the game to make it happen.

My proposal, in it's current form requires no new tech from the DEV's.

24 (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-12 13:42:17)

Re: Incursion Teleporter

After a though I think it would be better to add a new feature, than do an offspring of an existing one, (possibly) creating new bugs and problems.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Incursion Teleporter

Well I like the idea of having new ways to get onto the islands, but what really rubs me the wrong way is the fact that if you can teleport to the inner teleports, you can very easily be "behind enemy lines" without much effort.  I'd much rather see people being able to come in from the coast from a large number of points (they're preset, but even every 1km along the coast would give many options) because its generally farther away from the inner teleports.

I just cant see the possibility of instantly dropping to any teleport on an island from anywhere else in the world.  The only restriction being money, and if the game is to grow, that wont be an issue for most.

->You just lost The Game<-