1 Topic by Mongolia Jones (edited by Mongolia Jones 2011-05-10 17:08:15)

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Topic: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Don't get me wrong, I am against blob warfare and any good mechanic that reduces the effectiveness or increases the risk of blob warfare I am for.... as long as it does not hurt/hinder other aspects of the game.

My main issue with explosion damage is that it practically kills the use of all short range (100m ish) modules.  This mostly effects light/assault bots but also mechs with short range guns/ammo.

It would be nice if in non-blob situations (i.e. gangs of 1-8 or so) that the explosion damage was eliminated or reduced at worst.  After all, bot explosion was introduced to deter blobs not (non-blob) close range combat.

One solution is linking explosion damage to interference level so that explosions are much more deadly in blobs and non existent or a nuisance in non-blob situations.

What do you guys think?

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Interference should add more damage to explosions and then lower the base level of damage.

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3 Reply by Norrdec (edited by Norrdec 2011-05-10 07:00:29)

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

I agree with Alexander, make interference affect your reactor so it's more volatile or something like that.

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4 Reply by Alexadar (edited by Alexadar 2011-05-10 09:18:35)

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

If you cant handle mech explosion with your short range mech - then check your mechanics skills and leg slots. Its logical that closeRange guys should have more hitpoints because they should survive while approaching the enemy, and as result they should be able to handle AOE damage from mech explosion.

[edited]
I mean, current AOE functionality is fine.

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5 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2011-05-10 09:30:46)

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Alexadar wrote:

If you cant handle mech explosion with your short range mech - then check your mechanics skills and leg slots. Its logical that close Range guys should have more hitpoints because they should survive while approaching the enemy, and as result they should be able to handle AOE damage from mech explosion.

[edited]
I mean, current AOE functionality is fine.

I do agree that when using close range weapons you should be expecting to take some explosion damage (20m Optimal + Surface size * 10) but not all of it. If you're using a close range robot tanking it isn't the best option as it needs to be faster than the enemy.

The current optimal balance is around 80m to 100m for a short range but high damage robot fast enough to approach the enemy and survive. Problem is that usually after 1 or 2 enemies have died even if you're only taking 0%-20% damage the enemy is outputting 150 to 300 damage at those ranges when they die (Mech and above). Speed and range is the only way now. We'll probably even see large groups not using T4 weapons any more and choosing T2 equipment just for the speed advantage, perhaps even T3 weapons that have a range bonus.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

I'll be honest and without trolling:
Ive see a lot times squads with kains, what wiped all slow targets: industrials, pelistians, telodica mechs and this was kinda annoying. Yeah, this is game feture and im glad that guys had fun to ran this gangs, but as pelistian pilot i had thoughts that situation with closeRangeFastMovers must be solved by speed nerfing, or by DPS nerfing. Devs implemented nice feature with AOE what killed two (or even more) rabbits in one shot: much more antiblob mechanics and balancing closeRange combat, so close range guys will think twice before shoot. This is my point of view, and i'm ready for fair opposing arguments.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Explosion damage has nerfed close dps kains, not in a huge way but magnerapedarting ppl is now a quite dangerous game, tbh. If developers want to keep explosions as an intended antiblobbery mechanic I agree one hundred percent with Alex, with a twist; interference affecting explosion radius, not the amount of damage.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

But i suppose magnedarts guys can use ERPs to charge up capacitor for armor repair.
I didnt test it yet, but im sure ERPs was implemented to compensate AOE damage for closerange guys.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Alexadar wrote:

Its logical that closeRange guys should have more hitpoints because they should survive while approaching the enemy, and as result they should be able to handle AOE damage from mech explosion.

[edited]
I mean, current AOE functionality is fine.

And the short range bots (blue bots specifically) have the lowest base hit points.  So up the blue bot base armor or increase magnadart/composicore range.



Remember, bot explosions were introduced to stop blob warfare not to make close range combat so dangerous that it's not worth doing anymore.

Also, don't forget small bots with even shorter ranges.  Plus in hilly terrain with some small bots, the guns are so low to the ground you sometimes have to get right on top of your target to even get a hit.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Alexadar wrote:

I didnt test it yet, but im sure ERPs was implemented to compensate AOE damage for closerange guys.


ERP's were implemented to make rep tanks viable, not to survive a 3000 point blast from an exploding mech.

If you die from an explosion before you can even rep, then what good was the ERP?  Unless, while you travel into close range -> you are not shot at at all -> and are at full health when you get hit with the mech explosion -> then yes in that scenario the ERP does help your accumulator.

But whenever I go into close range my armor is almost always shot down to less than 70% (10% to 60% typically) and that is practically a death sentence if a mech pops close to you (enemy or friendly).

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC
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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

And whatever you do, don't stand next to each other...

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

I didnt test it yet, but im sure ERPs was implemented to compensate AOE damage for closerange guys.


ERP's were implemented to make rep tanks viable, not to survive a 3000 point blast from an exploding mech.

If you die from an explosion before you can even rep, then what good was the ERP?  Unless, while you travel into close range -> you are not shot at at all -> and are at full health when you get hit with the mech explosion -> then yes in that scenario the ERP does help your accumulator.

But whenever I go into close range my armor is almost always shot down to less than 70% (10% to 60% typically) and that is practically a death sentence if a mech pops close to you (enemy or friendly).

For example you killing tyranos. According to Alexander info, closeCombat optimal range is from 80 to 100 m. Lets say its 90m. Let tyranos AOE effective dmg will be 3k of dmg. Tyranos surface hit size is 8m. So AOE dmg will works on 20(optimal)+(8(shz)*10(fallof))=20+80fallof=100m. So on 90m your kain will receive approximately 3000*(1 - 7/8)=390 damage. This is pure damage without hit size correction. For 2.4k hp (maxed mechanics and lwf) kain it is medium, but acceptable damage. Also, according to Alexander's info, mechs will do 150-300 dmg before die, but even this damage+aoe on optimal range: will left kain alive. With ERP you can come closer and receive some AP for rep. So, as you can see it's all ok.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Hypothetical 1 on 1 situations are sole basis for game balance.

14 Reply by Yarren Rakarth (edited by Yarren Rakarth 2011-05-10 15:24:09)

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

AoE(Optimal)= 3000, 20m
Bot size (8)*10=80m falloff
Total =100m
Falloff 20-80, 3000-0 dmg
3000/80= 37.5, 0 at 101m.
Sum it up. distanse from target optimal explotion dmg.

x=3000-x*37.5=3000-y=z
10m=3000-10*37.5=3000-375=2625
25m=3000-25*37.5=3000-937.5=2062.5
50m=3000-50*37.5=3000-1875=1125
75m=3000-75*37.5=3000-2812.5=187.5
- Additional resistance.

Stupid math, no credit to the devs!

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Alexadar wrote:

But i suppose magnedarts guys can use ERPs to charge up capacitor for armor repair.
I didnt test it yet, but im sure ERPs was implemented to compensate AOE damage for closerange guys.

ERPS in close combat kains? weight makes it so suboptimal. And Mongolia is right, ERP work good for sustained damage, but are pretty useless for spikes.

I hate stationhuggers and arkhebears.
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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

FYI falloff is non-linear. Its a bit like (e-e^x), or similar
http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Help:Combat_in_numbers
http://content.perpetuum-online.com/ima … off_en.png
Ive done simple approximation, see my post above.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Malakian wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

But i suppose magnedarts guys can use ERPs to charge up capacitor for armor repair.
I didnt test it yet, but im sure ERPs was implemented to compensate AOE damage for closerange guys.

ERPS in close combat kains? weight makes it so suboptimal. And Mongolia is right, ERP work good for sustained damage, but are pretty useless for spikes.

Can be. Again, i didnt test it, so you probably got a point.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Yarren Rakarth wrote:

AoE(Optimal)= 3000, 20m
Bot size (8)*10=80m falloff
Total =100m
Falloff 20-80, 3000-0 dmg
3000/80= 37.5, so the dmg falls 37.5 dmg per meter until it hits 0 at 101m.
Sum it up. distanse from target optimal explotion dmg. ( Full distance from target )
25m=2812.5 dmg (45m)
50m=1875 dmg (70m)
75m=937.5 dmg (95m)
- Additional resistance.

Recalculate it pls.
Because
75m=3000-75*37.5=3000-2812=198

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Alexadar wrote:
Yarren Rakarth wrote:

AoE(Optimal)= 3000, 20m
Bot size (8)*10=80m falloff
Total =100m
Falloff 20-80, 3000-0 dmg
3000/80= 37.5, so the dmg falls 37.5 dmg per meter until it hits 0 at 101m.
Sum it up. distanse from target optimal explotion dmg. ( Full distance from target )
25m=2812.5 dmg (45m)
50m=1875 dmg (70m)
75m=937.5 dmg (95m)
- Additional resistance.

Recalculate it pls.
Because
75m=3000-75*37.5=3000-2812=198

Happy ? wink

20 Reply by Mongolia Jones (edited by Mongolia Jones 2011-05-10 16:07:42)

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Alexadar wrote:

According to Alexander info, closeCombat optimal range is from 80 to 100 m. Lets say its 90m.


Magnadart + Gauss optimal range is 50 meters well within the heavy damage area of mech explosions...

Also when using Compositecore ammo (100 meter optimal range) you can not maintain at all times a 80-100 meter range.  Combat is so fluid that you can find yourself within 40 meters within the blink of any eye (say bye bye to your glass cannon).

The only way to insure you will survive any combat within 100 meters is to make sure you have more than 60% health when the enemy goes pop. (Impossible to do)

Explosions need to be fixed -> link them to interference and everything will be fine.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

I'll say back to combat pilots, the same thing that I've been telling Indy players since the ore change;

Adapt your tactics.

I know you can, and I know you can think of better strategies to make explosion damage work to your advantage than I could suggest.

But here are general things;

mix up your roaming bot composition
coordinate your attacks better (Anti-blob working as intended)
include drainers/neuts as standard equip to reduce AP = less blast damage

Short range is now hit & run, which is good because you are fast.

Let me put this another way, why should explosion damage only effect defensive tactics?

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

To clarify, I think the light and assaults still get too much dmg from explosions. The mechs and H. mechs are fine as they are.

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23 Reply by Mongolia Jones (edited by Mongolia Jones 2011-05-10 19:01:07)

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Arga wrote:

I know you can, and I know you can think of better strategies to make explosion damage work to your advantage than I could suggest.

But here are general things;

mix up your roaming bot composition


We used to mix up our fits by 50%/50% close range/long range guns.  Now it's 0%/100% long range weapons only.

What the change has done is the opposite of what you are suggesting.  Instead of mixing bot fits (before the patch) we are all the same now (i.e. long range guns).

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

Norrdec wrote:

To clarify, I think the light and assaults still get too much dmg from explosions. The mechs and H. mechs are fine as they are.

Why ? thay are smaller and therefor weaker. should be thesame dmg, becouse the damage is hitting the whole bot. not less of the bot becouse its a smaller, should therefor imho do more dmg to lightbots if anything.

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Re: How explosion damage killed the close range mech

What about the bot dying when HP reaches zero but the explosion on an overload timer? 5,4,3,2,1 should be plenty of time for a zippy little light bot to flee.

that work? keep the same damage but put a 5 second kaboom delay, maybe 3 seconds...