Topic: So, what now?

Well, the expansion was cool.. Added lots of new terrain to see which was fun to explore and it enabled some pretty epic battles. I can't fault it.

Explosion damage seemed pretty cool but it's certainly not solved blobbing or reduced engagement sizes. It's still completely possible to get a large 50 vs 50 fight and have explosion damage mean very little. I'd much rather see a mechanic that makes it beneficial to break up into smaller groups. What happens in a blob is simple. As soon as you target an enemy with more than three or four people that person falls back and lets someone else take their place. The only way to kill an enemy is to spread fire and switch primaries to a secondary locked target in smaller groups rather than all at once. For this to work you simply need superior numbers and be willing to lose at least half of them (But crushing the enemy is worth it, no?).
To all those out there that have fought in blobs, would you not prefer the game to favour smaller 10 to 20 man squads moving as separate entities yet operate as a whole?

Why doesn't break up work now? What's stopping us just doing it? That's simple. When fighting a blob if you break up into smaller gangs and attempt a entrap the enemy all the enemy blob needs to be is rush the smaller or weaker groups first and easily overpower them. The only time this doesn't work is when you have greater numbers and then strategy doesn't make a different. You'll some robots but as long as you don't run away you'll win.

This game does something most others can't. It supports large fights easily which is great but honestly after winning and losing a few large fights I feel like they're not as exciting or enjoyable as smaller gang fights. I'd really like to see interference rebalanced or a new mechanic that works along side it that supports smaller gangs from the rushing blob scenario. Just because the enemy has more numbers they should still have to fight in smaller groups and from different vectors. Perhaps decrease the damage but increase the fall off of robot explosions but I don't think that alone would do it.

This is posted in general discussion for a reason. I'd like to judge how other people, large and small, feel about this. There is nothing stopping NAPs and blobbing as long as you train everyone to understand where they need to be in a fight.

The Game

Re: So, what now?

Has anyone tried the new interference emitters?

Re: So, what now?

DEV Calvin wrote:

Has anyone tried the new interference emitters?

The issue with those is you have to either leave them behind as you flee (Which usually results in being dead as kiting a blob the blob following usually wins) or charge into the enemy and die. And then there is nothing stopping the enemy group just blowing them up. They really don't add a lot of interference either. Their value is the same as have a few more robots in the fight and not a crippling "Oh noes, kill him before he drops an emitter!".

So, no.

The Game

Re: So, what now?

I personally think the game is fine as it is, there are far more pressing concerns - new player experience, PVE, content, etc - that require adding and refining (not to mention the bug fixes for the expansion) and are far more important then getting caught up in "Lets balance PVP".

Its theorycrafting and it wont get us anywhere. What Perpetuum is doing right now is slowly maturing away from the "lol gank everything trolololo" state of the game, towards a new Perpetuum where logistics, big-picture strategy and local tactics are becoming more and more important.

I mean, we can talk about PVP balance all we want - PVP is never balanced, there is always some FOTM thats FOTM because people cant be arsed to think up a way of countering it. Reference: ewar squads, kains, magnedarts, etc.

More sand. We need more players in this game.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: So, what now?

What we really need is a button to push that shows us exactly where the miners are or groups of 2-5 people are on Beta. That way lolpirates and corps that run around constantly in groups of 8-12 man units do not have to waste time looking around for miners or small groups to overwhelm/blob.

Re: So, what now?

Hoefish wrote:

What we really need is a button to push that shows us exactly where the miners are or groups of 2-5 people are on Beta. That way lolpirates and corps that run around constantly in groups of 8-12 man units do not have to waste time looking around for miners or small groups to overwhelm/blob.

Just no.

Former CEO of X-23

Re: So, what now?

Lets wait till artillery.

Re: So, what now?

Tbh if 2 groups meet, the game should automatically put them into an arena-instance and auto-upgrade everyone's gear to equal levels, so if a 10 man group runs into a 100 man group, they'll get teleported into a 10v10 instance, and then they can duke it out.

Gear also wont be unbalancing because system would automatically upgrade whichever side had inferior gear to equal value gear.

roll

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: So, what now?

Syndic wrote:

Tbh if 2 groups meet, the game should automatically put them into an arena-instance and auto-upgrade everyone's gear to equal levels, so if a 10 man group runs into a 100 man group, they'll get teleported into a 10v10 instance, and then they can duke it out.

Gear also wont be unbalancing because system would automatically upgrade whichever side had inferior gear to equal value gear.

roll

Nice troll. That's not at all what I was talking about.. Heh.

The Game

Re: So, what now?

Alexander wrote:
Syndic wrote:

Tbh if 2 groups meet, the game should automatically put them into an arena-instance and auto-upgrade everyone's gear to equal levels, so if a 10 man group runs into a 100 man group, they'll get teleported into a 10v10 instance, and then they can duke it out.

Gear also wont be unbalancing because system would automatically upgrade whichever side had inferior gear to equal value gear.

roll

Nice troll. That's not at all what I was talking about.. Heh.

Its not a troll, I'm quite serious about it. In order to get completely fair fights, there needs to be equal numbers, equal bots, equal gear. That can only be achieved via instances, so the next step from that would be merging the 3 mega-corps into 1 giga-corp or whatever, so everyone was 100% same for PVP...

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: So, what now?

Syndic wrote:
Alexander wrote:
Syndic wrote:

Tbh if 2 groups meet, the game should automatically put them into an arena-instance and auto-upgrade everyone's gear to equal levels, so if a 10 man group runs into a 100 man group, they'll get teleported into a 10v10 instance, and then they can duke it out.

Gear also wont be unbalancing because system would automatically upgrade whichever side had inferior gear to equal value gear.

roll

Nice troll. That's not at all what I was talking about.. Heh.

Its not a troll, I'm quite serious about it. In order to get completely fair fights, there needs to be equal numbers, equal bots, equal gear. That can only be achieved via instances, so the next step from that would be merging the 3 mega-corps into 1 giga-corp or whatever, so everyone was 100% same for PVP...

You cant be serious, hell no.

RIP PERPETUUM

12 (edited by Syndic 2011-05-08 21:54:06)

Re: So, what now?

I am serious. If we're talking about what to do next, 4-5 days after the first expansion in perpetuum, might as well implement a WoW arena thing. I mean, it takes at least a month before people chew through a WoW expansion, here its already "whats the next thing" after less then a week.

Just sit back and let them develop the game. Or hell, if we want a 100% fair fight, merge all megacorps, remove tiered gear from the game, and develop an auto-matchup system when 2 groups meet for equal number & equal bot type fights.

... Or we could just play GW / wait for GW2...

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: So, what now?

What so fair about fighting anyways. For the OP I would say,  blobs are a problem in all MMOs .Not sure if there is a solution if perpetuum devs find it it will be a first, but its kind of the nature of this type of games imho. At least they have taken steps to reduce it. But I dont think anti-blob mechanism go well with multiplayer that will make game more pro-soloist or not?

Look at it this way 10-20 termises should mine more than 1 riveler or not?

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: So, what now?

Syndic wrote:

I am serious. If we're talking about what to do next, 4-5 days after the first expansion in perpetuum, might as well implement a WoW arena thing. I mean, it takes at least a month before people chew through a WoW expansion, here its already "whats the next thing" after less then a week.

Just sit back and let them develop the game. Or hell, if we want a 100% fair fight, merge all megacorps, remove tiered gear from the game, and develop an auto-matchup system when 2 groups meet for equal number & equal bot type fights.

... Or we could just play GW / wait for GW2...

I am not talking about right now. I am not saying that the current balance is wrong. What I wanted to bring forward was that gear, tactics and knowledge are great. Having them is important but robots are not hard to get, gear is not hard to get and training doesn't usually take too long to learn the basics and practise them. Numbers are another whole factor that ranges from 1 to as many as you can log in. This game is all about the big guy beating up the little guy. It's why we see so many NAP's flying around. Not always a bad thing as they never last long but does this game really want to be just another MMO that is winnable if you just bring more players?

I am not suggesting any changes. I am not suggesting anything change right now as the expansion only just released. The expansion isn't like another game expansion. The only new content to "Play through" is a tour of each island. The rest of the game stayed the same but it did what it needed to do. It got people back and playing. I just wanted to judge other players feedback (And I am sure there are more players than just CIR.. Somewhere.. Anywhere?) on the current situation.

New players enter the game lost and unable to get a feel for the game. They instantly can't communicate with others without the use of general chat or use the market and most of them comment on these. Then you have the end of game corporations that have been there and done that to just about anything. How long before they bored of amassing war funds?

I would LOVE to see the official stats on robots being created and destroyed. My guess is at the very least for every 1 robot that falls there are 2 produced or created. (Not including all the refunds)

The Game

15 (edited by Urien Rakarth 2011-05-08 23:19:28)

Re: So, what now?

Syndic wrote:

Its not a troll, I'm quite serious about it. In order to get completely fair fights, there needs to be equal numbers, equal bots, equal gear. That can only be achieved via instances, so the next step from that would be merging the 3 mega-corps into 1 giga-corp or whatever, so everyone was 100% same for PVP...

You Really are special arnt you ? ^^ split your alliance into 2 or 3 instead and you will have your fair fight, and that goes for norhoop to. no need for mega corps or 5 corp alliances. thats just pathetic thinking. to have 50% of the server green or blue cant even be fun, or is it ?

In a world gone mad, only a lunatic is truly insane - Homer J Simpson

Re: So, what now?

I posted my reply here.

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … alliances/

It's basically the same awnser to the same question.

Re: So, what now?

DEV Calvin wrote:

Has anyone tried the new interference emitters?

Interference emmiters still have too low emmiting ammount ant too low masking capabilities.
If devs dont want to make emmiters highly masked, i propose to do emmiters invisible for non-squad members before they will be detected.

Re: So, what now?

I don't support this message.

Re: So, what now?

Fifty is not a blob. The games pitiful numbers make 50 a blob. Like Styx and I agreed in a previous thread just remove the cap on interference effect and problem solved. Gangs above 50 just wont be able to target anything.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

20 (edited by Eternity Nova 2011-05-09 14:00:25)

Re: So, what now?

You won't squash the blob. Here's why:

1) Available "soldiers" are not fighting for their life, they're playing a video game. Therefore no need for the kind of discipline that is required for an army to fight in smaller organised teams. Can just all blob up and mash buttons. In a blob no skill is required therefore many just never learn to properly do combat (awareness of surroundings, judging situations quickly, knowing when to gtfo, not getting trapped like a noob). Unless you make it so your bot blows up when more than 3 friendlies are within 500m blobs will exist no matter what.

It's ALWAYS a case of "If I have more dudes I am very likely to win the fight".

2) Available space is not enough. The new islands are nice but at best this will maybe create one additional power block. What is needed is an Eve-like system where it's possible for a small group of ppl to go out in the middle of nowhere, away from it all, and make a living. Ideally a solo dude would be able to make a living on beta while having a good chance on getting out. What we have now is like a small room full of angry fat guys. SPACE! MOAR NEEDED!

Point 1 can't be helped unless you make it so you die IRL if your bot blows up. Point 2 can, but I fear it's not quick enough. Hand crafted maps are very very nice and appreciated but they're so slow to make. A procedural terrain generation system is what you need.

Note that even Point 2 is fixed you will still have blobs BUT you will also allow for the smaller fights to happen on a frequent basis without the wtf bus of fatties crashing the party...

Re: So, what now?

Syndic wrote:
Alexander wrote:
Syndic wrote:

Tbh if 2 groups meet, the game should automatically put them into an arena-instance and auto-upgrade everyone's gear to equal levels, so if a 10 man group runs into a 100 man group, they'll get teleported into a 10v10 instance, and then they can duke it out.

Gear also wont be unbalancing because system would automatically upgrade whichever side had inferior gear to equal value gear.

roll

Nice troll. That's not at all what I was talking about.. Heh.

Its not a troll, I'm quite serious about it. In order to get completely fair fights, there needs to be equal numbers, equal bots, equal gear. That can only be achieved via instances, so the next step from that would be merging the 3 mega-corps into 1 giga-corp or whatever, so everyone was 100% same for PVP...

Look into his eyes:
http://img.leprosorium.com/1094138
He dont wanna instances in this game

Re: So, what now?

can someone please explain me exactly whats the issue with your so called "Blobs",
And why those player with "superior tactical gameplay" can't counter them?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: So, what now?

The thing is, like stEVE, superior numbers has no drawback in this game.

When a RL army wants to attack somewhere, it needs logistics, currently blobs require no such support. You take your 50 man blob, blob it up somewhere for a bit, get attacked and win or attack and lose then the remains run away...

Tactically, splitting your force has zero benefits and 100% drawbacks against superior numbers in this (or any other frankly) game. Until such time as there is a need to split forces, either to defend multiple disparate objectives (POS etc) then 1 vs 1 blobs will be the order of the day. Either that or you make it so an army needs logistics support to empower smaller groups to be more effective, i.e. a nexus type module that buffs up to 5 gang members in a 50m radius but loses effectiveness if there are more than 5 gang members within a 1000m radius. Make the buff significant enough to make it worthwhile for smaller squads and you'll get more of it.

"like Kalsius, a shameless carebear and jitalover" - Syndic
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com/killboard/

Re: So, what now?

Kalsius Dakalsai wrote:

The thing is, like stEVE, superior numbers has no drawback in this game.

When a RL army wants to attack somewhere, it needs logistics, currently blobs require no such support. You take your 50 man blob, blob it up somewhere for a bit, get attacked and win or attack and lose then the remains run away...

Tactically, splitting your force has zero benefits and 100% drawbacks against superior numbers in this (or any other frankly) game. Until such time as there is a need to split forces, either to defend multiple disparate objectives (POS etc) then 1 vs 1 blobs will be the order of the day. Either that or you make it so an army needs logistics support to empower smaller groups to be more effective, i.e. a nexus type module that buffs up to 5 gang members in a 50m radius but loses effectiveness if there are more than 5 gang members within a 1000m radius. Make the buff significant enough to make it worthwhile for smaller squads and you'll get more of it.


er...what. YOu guys always have 20+ minutes of logistics with every roam big or small lol....  x_X

25 (edited by Annihilator 2011-05-09 22:44:41)

Re: So, what now?

youre probably not long enough around to know, but the pre-nexus squad-extension system was kinda outlined like that:

squad extension did not raise range, but max. members of squad affected.

It was never tested, as those extensions did nothing before the NEXUS system was implemented. Yet, most NEXUS extensions and modules are only worth using if the effect is applied on enough player to justify the sacrifice of one player that equips/skills that thing.
(eg. assault nexus must raise the DPS of the whole group enough to compensate at least one more DPS Mech)

The System you propose Kalsius is intresting - it would make it necessary that the base increase of a nexus is more, but would the effect would be lowered by the count of affected player. Problem:
Blobs would just split into smaller groups but still move as one big group. Only disadvantage would be on side of the RR supporter because they can't see everyones Hitpoint-bar.

But back to my initial question: why is noone able to break the blobs? Those under heavy interference influence are almost blind, easy to ECM and Supress and already got increased locking time, and shorter locking range. Where are the Vagabond and Zenith stealth squads using that to their advantage? Do those blobs field target painter?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear