1 (edited by Gobla 2010-11-28 19:15:57)

Topic: Weapons: The Math

Hey all. I've decided to make a small compilation of the pure stats of all the diffirent weapon types. Do note that this is without taking external factors into account and as such don't make any conclusions without considering those. I myself make no conclusions, I will however make some notes.

All stats are purely from the weapons with no skills or any other bonuses with the average 2 damage type ammo.
Format is as follows:
Weapon: <DPS> DPS @ <Optimal Range>m + <Falloff>m for <Accumulator use per second> acc/sec with <Alpha Damage> alpha

Missiles:

  • Small Missiles: 4,66 DPS @ 150m + 0m for 0,1333 acc/sec with 35 alpha

  • Medium Short Missiles: 7,5 DPS @ 150m + 0m for 0,1428 acc/sec with 105 alpha

  • Medium Long Missiles: 5 DPS @ 330m + 0m for 0,1428 acc/sec with 70 alpha

Lasers:

  • Small Lasers: 5,5 DPS @ 150m + 100m for 1,25 acc/sec with 22 alpha

  • Medium Short Lasers: 11,26 DPS @ 175m + 100m for 5 acc/sec with 56,32 alpha

  • Medium Long Lasers: 7,33 DPS @ 325m + 100m for 5 acc/sec with 44 alpha

Magnetics:

  • Small Magnetics: 5,94 DPS @ 120m + 50m for 0,6 acc/sec with 29,7 alpha

  • Medium Short Magnetics: 12,47 DPS @ 150m + 75m for 2,6667 acc/sec with 74,8 alpha

  • Medium Long Magnetics: 8,8 DPS @ 290m + 75m for 3 acc/sec with 88 alpha

Guns:

  • Small Guns: 8,25 DPS @ 75m + 125m for 0,3125 acc/sec with 26,4 alpha

  • Medium Short Guns: 17,6 DPS @ 125m + 200m for 0,25 acc/sec with 70,4 alpha

  • Medium Long Guns: 11,83 DPS @ 200m + 250m for 0,25 acc/sec with 94,6 alpha

Notes:

  • Most Weapons more then double their DPS from Small to Medium Short, Missiles have just over a 50% increase. From Short to Medium Long most weapons see about a 33% increase. The Missile increase is merely 7%. Medium Short Missiles however do offer an alpha strike that is at least 40% higher compared to other Medium Short weapons. Long Missiles have an alpha strike that is only higher then that of Lasers.

  • Most Weapons see their acc/sec increase from Small to Medium. Guns acc/sec decreases.

  • Magnetics and Lasers seem very similar yet lasers use almost twice as much acc/sec. I do not know if the bots compensate for this. This seems mostly caused by the lasers higher rate of fire.

  • Guns have vastly superior DPS, this is most likely compensated by bot bonuses. Guns DPS is about 50% higher.

Again, none of these notes take into account any bonuses from bots and skills.

Re: Weapons: The Math

From the help files:

Turrets: Target size / Hit dispersion===
The quotient of the two parameters show the chance of a hit. For example the target size of your enemy is 5, your weapon's dispersion is 7. Due to this formula, the chance of hit in one cycle is (5/7=0,71) 71%. In case the enemy's target size is 4, and your weapon's dispersion is 4, the chance of hit is (4/4=1) 100%.

A prometheus is size 3.

Standard light small weapons hit disp is:

Laser 3 (100% vs prometheus)
EM 4 (75%)
Gun 5 (60%)

Seems like a huge factor.  I never read my combat log so I don't know the actual results.

Re: Weapons: The Math

You need to crunch the numbers of T4 weapons instead.  I think you'll find much better numbers there, as well as it being a much better indicator than standards.

EM guns multiply in damage % compared to missiles/lasers, so the numbers based on just the ammo values isnt very telling of anything.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
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Re: Weapons: The Math

Typhoon wrote:

From the help files:

Turrets: Target size / Hit dispersion===
The quotient of the two parameters show the chance of a hit. For example the target size of your enemy is 5, your weapon's dispersion is 7. Due to this formula, the chance of hit in one cycle is (5/7=0,71) 71%. In case the enemy's target size is 4, and your weapon's dispersion is 4, the chance of hit is (4/4=1) 100%.

A prometheus is size 3.

Standard light small weapons hit disp is:

Laser 3 (100% vs prometheus)
EM 4 (75%)
Gun 5 (60%)

Seems like a huge factor.  I never read my combat log so I don't know the actual results.

Ah thank you for noticing that, that should definitely be included into the calculations. I'll add them ASAP.

Neoxx wrote:

You need to crunch the numbers of T4 weapons instead.  I think you'll find much better numbers there, as well as it being a much better indicator than standards.

EM guns multiply in damage % compared to missiles/lasers, so the numbers based on just the ammo values isnt very telling of anything.

Multiplication is taken into account. Otherwise EM damage wouldn't be the second-highest.

But I'll do a T4 comparison sometime in the future.

However, in a balanced game all weapons should scale equally from standard to T4.

In a balanced game all advantages of a weapons system should be in the weapon itself, not in the skills around it. If missiles do 90% of EM damage at standard level then they should also do 90% of EM damage at T4 with maxed skills. If not then one weapon system is better on the short term while the other is better in the long term, but seeing as all EP should be spend on the long term the practical version is that one weapons system is simply better then the other.

5 (edited by Gobla 2010-11-29 18:59:06)

Re: Weapons: The Math

I can't edit my OP since this is a different Gobla then the one I used to create the OP.

But anyway, here's a comparison of the weapon's their hit dispersion. This time I do take skills into account since the increase in skills is not even over all weapons. A weapon that already has a 100% hit percentage is not further improved by reducing that weapon's hit percentage while a weapon that hits 95% of the time is still improved.

Format is as follows:
<Target Bot Type>: <Base Hit Chance>% to <Max Hit Chance>%

Do note that the Zenith has the same Surface Size as a Combat Mech instead of an E-War Mech and that 10 ranks of a 3% decrease is calculated as 0,97^10.

Small Lasers:

  • Light Robot: 100% to 100%

  • Assault Robot: 100% to 100%

  • E-War Mech: 100% to 100%

  • Combat Mech: 100% to 100%

  • Heavy Mech: 100% to 100%

Small Magnetics and Small Missiles:

  • Light Robot: 75% to 100%

  • Assault Robot: 100% to 100%

  • E-War Mech: 100% to 100%

  • Combat Mech: 100% to 100%

  • Heavy Mech: 100% to 100%

Small Guns

  • Light Robot: 60% to 81,36%

  • Assault Robot: 80% to 100%

  • E-War Mech: 100% to 100%

  • Combat Mech: 100% to 100%

  • Heavy Mech: 100% to 100%

Medium Short and Long Lasers, Long Missiles:

  • Light Robot: 37,5% to 50,85%

  • Assault Robot: 50% to 67,8%

  • E-War Mech: 87,5% to 100%

  • Combat Mech: 100% to 100%

  • Heavy Mech: 100% to 100%

Medium Long Magnetics:

  • Light Robot: 33,33% to 45,2%

  • Assault Robot: 44,44% to 60,27%

  • E-War Mech: 77,78% to 100%

  • Combat Mech: 88,89% to 100%

  • Heavy Mech: 100% to 100%

Medium Short Magnetics, Short Missiles, Long Guns:

  • Light Robot: 30% to 40,68%

  • Assault Robot: 40% to 54,24%

  • E-War Mech: 70% to 94,93%

  • Combat Mech: 80% to 100%

  • Heavy Mech: 100% to 100%

Medium Short Guns:

  • Light Robot: 25% to 33,9%

  • Assault Robot: 33,33% to 45,2%

  • E-War Mech: 58,33% to 79,1%

  • Combat Mech: 66,67% to 90,4%

  • Heavy Mech: 83,33% to 100%

Notes:

  • As you can see the higher your hit chance the more effect you get from increasing your Precision Firing or Seismics skill. But as your hit percentage can not go over 100% there's a cut-off point where the effects of these skills start lowering again. This point is, provided that the skill indeed adds up as 0,97^10, at exactly 0,97^10 = 73,74%. Any lower then that and the increase will be less and any higher then that and you'll go over 100%.

  • It should however be noted that this does mean that DPS increases more for weapons with a 73,74% hit chance. In all cases where your hit chance is below 73,74% your hit chance is increased by 35,61% ( 1 / 0,7374 ) Thus the higher your initial hit chance the higher your DPS increase. When looking at a higher hit chance than 73,74% your hit chance is increased by less and less the closer you are to 100% hit chance. Thus the DPS increase is again lowered as you approach 100.

  • Because of this when purely looking at the benefits of the precision firing/seismics skills the most benefit is gained when they are combined with a weapon with a hit dispersion as large as possible. In fact, only Medium Short Guns, with a hit dispersion of 12, receive a benefit against all targets. While Small Lasers, with a hit dispersion of 3, never receive any benefit from the skill at all.

The formula for the DPS increase gained from Precision firing/Seismics is as follows ( based on the assumption that 10 levels of those skills work as 0,97^10 )

DI = 1 - ( Min( ( ( 1 / ( 0,97^SL ) ) * IH ), 100 ) / IH )

With IH = Initial Hit Chance, DI = DPS Increase, SL = Precision Firing/Seismics Skill Level

Or in more normal language: 1 - ( New IH /  Old IH )

Edited the post somewhat to correct math mistakes and failures. Let me know if you find any more.

6 (edited by Ketjup 2010-11-30 20:00:18)

Re: Weapons: The Math

Well firearms may have a big starting bonus, but due to high falloff damage reduction , short range optimal range and not having its own "tank ish" bot they fall behind in survivability as soon you spent the first 20k ep.  in order to dish out that suposingly good damage you have to get close, that means you draw argo of every bot around you. and you simply get ***. having 9 lvls firearms  and 3 levels of laser skill i take a tiny bit longer to kill whit the lasers but i survive lvl 2 encounters easy.the firearm encounters is a Mather of getting in..and waiting well beyond the time it takes for a laser user to kill a bot on repairs. if your unlucky you get the full argo and are dead. wile base damage is balanced. the bonuses are not . you have to spent twice as many ep on sub systems to survive what a laser user can survive.

Re: Weapons: The Math

Nice nice, would love to see something on the item which decreases your size to see if it's worth taking in pvp.

Like: what's the chance a heavy mech will hit an assault robot with 2x standard evasive manouvre ( -1.4m size ).

Re: Weapons: The Math

you can fit only one evasive mod at once

Forum Rule #5
Pyramid quoting, quoting excessive amounts of text or quoting without any senseful reply is forbidden. Only quote that is necessary to show what your reply refers to.

Re: Weapons: The Math

Ok, good to know smile

Re: Weapons: The Math

T1-T4 progression isnt the same across all weapons, and it has nothing to do with balance.  Dps, range, firing rate, ammo capacity, weight...

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: Weapons: The Math

Thanks for this info, im completely new to the game so this helps me get a jumping point on learning how to be a beast.

So far I thought I had spec'd lots of turret damage, because missles did crap for damage against turrets. But I had only done turret speed which explains the DPS difference, but not the damage. For instance using standards, my turret was hitting for 19, and missle for 15.6. On top of that the turret was shooting 3 times as fast, due to spec.

I hear of LOS issues and other stuff, so this is probably only a newb issue im running into. Makes me want to sell my Casel and just rock ym newb ship for awhile.