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While I understand what you are talking about coming from EVE etc.
You should also know you can pvp here in a light bot/ewar bot with not much ep invested.
Just like in EVE they would always tell new players they have a role they can do. Like grab a frig and put a warp jammer on it and tackle for us.
Same here get your char set up to run a ewar bot and demob.
Bam! You're in the game doing pvp.
you want to use WoW as an example? Okay, I played WoW unlike all the other games you mentioned. I played from vanilla through lich king on and off with 6+ mos gaps. I was always able to be competitive after some catch up time.
This is good that you know wow, and I'm sure the OP does too. So lets put the OP poster into that perspective.
--
Hi,
I signed up for WOW 2 weeks ago and I got picked up by end game raiding guild. I'm constantly seeing LF1M DPS for 25 ICC but they say I have to be level 80 first, what kind of crap is that? Blizzard should let me just buy levels.
So, I got the guild to power level me to 80 because they really NEED more players, but they STILL won't let me go to ICC, some crap about not being geared enough. Blizzard should just let me buy gear.
I finally got all epic from being run through raids, and I can now go to ICC, but I die all the time to this red stuff on the ground. This game sucks, I wasted tons of time on this stupid game, I quit.
--
This isn't even an exaggeration, I was GM of a WOW End-game raiding guild, and saw things like this all the time.
Take the same analogy and apply it to PVP, where a level 19 twink in warsong 1 shots your level 19.
Does the game have some issues, it does, I have 100 posts talking about the game issues. Does it surprise me that new players feel under-utilized, it does not because even vetern players have the same issue.
Sure, buying EP would give them a 'temporary' feeling of advancement, but even if they could buy 100k EP, all it would do is uncover the next layers of issues which they would want some 'easy' fix for.
I can really sympathize with you, the experience is 'harsh', it is not an easy game to play. You can actually lose ground in this game, but that is what makes gaining so much better. If you haven't played Eve, which I didn't (a few weeks only) it takes about 45 days to 'get' what this game is about. The devs are working on improving the new player experience, and eventually they will make it easier, but this game is only a few months old. Again, going back to WOW, classic players went ape everytime there was a change that negated something they worked very hard for. I'm sure the same thing will happen in Perpetuum, BUT it took years for them to nerf those things along with adding new challenging content, not weeks or months.
TL;DR If your corporation makes you feel like a stock clerk, find another corporation where you can add more value or make a space for yourself instead of asking the game to do it for you.
Crepitus wrote:you want to use WoW as an example? Okay, I played WoW unlike all the other games you mentioned. I played from vanilla through lich king on and off with 6+ mos gaps. I was always able to be competitive after some catch up time.
This is good that you know wow, and I'm sure the OP does too. So lets put the OP poster into that perspective.
--
Hi,I signed up for WOW 2 weeks ago and I got picked up by end game raiding guild. I'm constantly seeing LF1M DPS for 25 ICC but they say I have to be level 80 first, what kind of crap is that? Blizzard should let me just buy levels.
So, I got the guild to power level me to 80 because they really NEED more players, but they STILL won't let me go to ICC, some crap about not being geared enough. Blizzard should just let me buy gear.
I finally got all epic from being run through raids, and I can now go to ICC, but I die all the time to this red stuff on the ground. This game sucks, I wasted tons of time on this stupid game, I quit.
--
This isn't even an exaggeration, I was GM of a WOW End-game raiding guild, and saw things like this all the time.
Take the same analogy and apply it to PVP, where a level 19 twink in warsong 1 shots your level 19.
Does the game have some issues, it does, I have 100 posts talking about the game issues. Does it surprise me that new players feel under-utilized, it does not because even vetern players have the same issue.
Sure, buying EP would give them a 'temporary' feeling of advancement, but even if they could buy 100k EP, all it would do is uncover the next layers of issues which they would want some 'easy' fix for.
I can really sympathize with you, the experience is 'harsh', it is not an easy game to play. You can actually lose ground in this game, but that is what makes gaining so much better. If you haven't played Eve, which I didn't (a few weeks only) it takes about 45 days to 'get' what this game is about. The devs are working on improving the new player experience, and eventually they will make it easier, but this game is only a few months old. Again, going back to WOW, classic players went ape everytime there was a change that negated something they worked very hard for. I'm sure the same thing will happen in Perpetuum, BUT it took years for them to nerf those things along with adding new challenging content, not weeks or months.
TL;DR If your corporation makes you feel like a stock clerk, find another corporation where you can add more value or make a space for yourself instead of asking the game to do it for you.
Regardless of how correct you are Arga -- the OP wants instant gratification so your arguments are invalid.
If you want constant, meaningless but fun PVP go play Battlestar Galactica Online.
If you want to play game set in a world were anyone can make a difference then play Perpetuum. 
I vote for somewhere I can make a difference, be involved with something and feel accomplished when I get what I aimed to achieve.
I thought maybe some other new player not on rage-troll-quit would find my pixels useful, and I get bored at work )
I thought maybe some other new player not on rage-troll-quit would find my pixels useful, and I get bored at work )
I found it interesting, if maybe a little exaggerated. But that makes it all the more interesting. Perpetuum forums are 85% for entertainment when at work and unable to log in, and 15% meaningful communication about game issues.
PS Perpetuum is not for everyone. It's not for most people. But you likely won't find many kids playing on their parents' dime, or players who want things handed to them. To me, this distills the player base down to people who know what they're doing and know how to work for something. That is its biggest strength. IMO of course.
I found it interesting, if maybe a little exaggerated. But that makes it all the more interesting. Perpetuum forums are 85% for entertainment when at work and unable to log in, and 15% meaningful communication about game issues.
PS Perpetuum is not for everyone. It's not for most people. But you likely won't find many kids playing on their parents' dime, or players who want things handed to them. To me, this distills the player base down to people who know what they're doing and know how to work for something. That is its biggest strength. IMO of course.
Cant agree. Communication on these forums is nice and most criticism is constructive from players caring about the game. (Let out that item-shop smacktalk that rose up now for 2-3 days).
DEVs are somewhat caring.
Theres even some members of the press here and real mmog vets and even developers of other MMOG games that show interest and try to hint a tip or two.
You're right that sandboxxy isnt for everyone, eve showed that, too.
I never said people aren't caring or that criticism isn't constructive. Only that people are posting here in the first place because they need entertainment at work.
I doubt all these people would choose to post on the forums over playing the actual game.
Edit: typo
Looking at the big thing : maybe.
But i currently dont play, but care about the game beside a DVD 
A RL friend today took the time to write a real WALL OF TEXT to the devs via email because he cant post on these forums as a trial.
Overall, i would say most people here are caring, even that trial that allready seems lost for po, cared. Theres a few trolls on here, of course. But overall i think its a constructive community we have.
TL;DR If your corporation makes you feel like a stock clerk, find another corporation where you can add more value or make a space for yourself instead of asking the game to do it for you.
I'm paying the game, not my corp to play. The analogy of people wanting to get into w/e 25 man raid without having the gear or level is a really bad comparison. How about something more like: If you purchased WOW in the first month, you were level 45, everyone else after that was level 1. Except in WOW, a level 1 can actually catch up to a 45 if the 45 doesn't play often. Here that's never the case.
Regardless of how correct you are Arga -- the OP wants instant gratification so your arguments are invalid.
I don't want anything other than what was offered to the people that started the game up with 1 months EP for free.
Each player has a role to fill... it's kinda like saying 'you're good, just not THAT good' if this game was based on skill more than EP it'd be a lot different.
Take the noobiest person playing since Beta, put them vs a godlike pro at 2 weeks EP, and who wins 1 vs 1? If you want new players, there needs to be something to help bridge the gap between old pros and soon to be new ones.
6 months is an equalizing field - fine. I won't wait 6 months, neither will anyone else. Why wait until something can get good? I'd prefer to pay or do something in order to bridge the gap a little sooner.
Each player has a role to fill... it's kinda like saying 'you're good, just not THAT good' if this game was based on skill more than EP it'd be a lot different.
Or like saying, you're going to be that good, eventually... you'll just have to wait just as long as those other people that are ahead of you in line to be that good.
Take the noobiest person playing since Beta, put them vs a godlike pro at 2 weeks EP, and who wins 1 vs 1? If you want new players, there needs to be something to help bridge the gap between old pros and soon to be new ones.
Take the noobiest person playing since beta and put them vs someone 3 months into the game and you'll find the gap has closed to be almost negligible and more emphasis is put on tactics, bot type, and fittings.
6 months is an equalizing field - fine. I won't wait 6 months, neither will anyone else. Why wait until something can get good? I'd prefer to pay or do something in order to bridge the gap a little sooner.
While I feel for you, you're being dramatic. People will wait 6 months, it's a proven business model. In fact, people are more likely to subscribe for longer periods even when inactive because there is the perception that they are 'gaining' something. So, while you're here throwing your hands up me and everyone else will continue to bolster our lead in EP and be unstoppably OP because that 5% extra locking range is going to dominate you 10/10 times... i keed i keed.
While GLIMPSE is normally my troll #1, i habe to agree in most parts
While GLIMPSE is normally my troll #1, i habe to agree in most parts
I use to see images of jesus, but now I see images of glimpse in a Christ-like manner.
Raise your hands, raise .. errmm .. no
back to topic
So, while you're here throwing your hands up me and everyone else will continue to bolster our lead in EP and be unstoppably OP because that 5% extra locking range is going to dominate you 10/10 times... i keed i keed.
GLiMPSE hits the nail on the head. All games which rely on a similar system to Perpetuum emphasis the law of diminishing returns. Everyone can be useful no matter what EP, you just won't be in your Mega Death Kill Mech 2000 on day 5 because you can spend 24 hrs a day grinding like in other MMO's. Time based skilling levels the field, it also means that someone may spend 60 days of EP to get that last 5% locking time whereas you can spend EP in other ways to be effective too.
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com/f … 3&t=27
That has a good EvE example but here in Perpetuum, player skill plays even more of a part and working your way up the bots is the best way to build those skills.
I'll continue to play the game, it seems like it needs a little more depth I think. I'll finish out my 30 days and we'll see how things stand. I still feel that if people were able to at least purchase what everyone at the start was able to do and get a free months worth of EP after a signup or a 6month signup bonus, people would be willing to pay extra money and in turn will give us all more things to do/islands to conquer/people to kill.
One of the biggest things I hate about WoW is that I played at release and worked my *** off to get to level 60 over a period of months, to get a regular mount and then be one of the first on my server to have an epic mount, and to earn gear.
Now, you can get to level 60 in an afternoon, and your mount and epic mount are essentially given to you because now the thing to work for is flying mounts. Does the fact that the game progressed mean that older players' accomplishments aren't worth as much? I literally have nothing over someone who started playing a couple weeks ago and got to where I am, and that sucks.
The WoW rant is relevant because I *should* have something to show for playing the game however many years ago and putting in way more time than the new player did. In Perpetuum this is the case. But the point that the OP still seems to be missing is that more EP does not make you better able to compete in a real, meaningful way. It only lets you do more with one character.
The other thing you are still missing is that you got in at the beginning! The game has only been out for a few months! You are going to be one of the people who has more EP than everyone else and you are going to be the one you are arguing against. Unless the game doesn't make it (in which case the whole conversation is moot), we are in the top 1% a year from now. Try to keep that in mind too.
EP disadvantage is the biggest problem PO has. And it will grow expotentially bigger with every passing month. There are like ~150-200 people online, which doesn't make this game a MMO.
Yet you still want the gap to grow even bigger. Good luck with finding new players.
EP disadvantage is the biggest problem PO has. And it will grow expotentially bigger with every passing month. There are like ~150-200 people online, which doesn't make this game a MMO.
Yet you still want the gap to grow even bigger. Good luck with finding new players.
Oddly enough there is a game out there thats been using the same business model since 2003, and they've been adding to their subscriber base every year. There are many WoW clones out there that don't follow this model, perhaps that would be more to your liking?
EP disadvantage is the biggest problem PO has. And it will grow expotentially bigger with every passing month. There are like ~150-200 people online, which doesn't make this game a MMO.
Yet you still want the gap to grow even bigger. Good luck with finding new players.
I don´t mean to be rude, but you Sir, seem to be playing the wrong game or just do not understand how the EP mechanics work. I suggest you go back to square 1 and start to read the post from the beginnig, for some further enlightenment.
Natasya wrote:While GLIMPSE is normally my troll #1, i habe to agree in most parts
I use to see images of jesus, but now I see images of glimpse in a Christ-like manner.
OMG, how do you cope? I feel with you, it mus be horrific 
Myles Norvid wrote:EP disadvantage is the biggest problem PO has. And it will grow expotentially bigger with every passing month. There are like ~150-200 people online, which doesn't make this game a MMO.
Yet you still want the gap to grow even bigger. Good luck with finding new players.
I don´t mean to be rude, but you Sir, seem to be playing the wrong game or just do not understand how the EP mechanics work. I suggest you go back to square 1 and start to read the post from the beginnig, for some further enlightenment.
I would really *LOVE* for some of you "EP makes no difference" people to explain how it's possible that someone who has 5x as much EP as you isn't stronger in spades.
Take a simple example, basic robotics. All my characters are blue, my combat guy has basic robotics at lvl 5. This gives him a 25% damage bonus with EM guns, 25% more armor repair, and 25% extended falloff. Going over lvl 5 is prohibitively expensive especially for someone with only a months worth of EP.
If I'm fighting against another guy with the same skills but he has more EP total and therefore higher basic robotics (and probably other combat skills as well) he could have as much as a 25% damage/repair/falloff bonus OVER AND ABOVE MINE. That's just 1 skill. Having more EP can and does give serious advantages not just small ones.
It's also a fact that people with more EP, having played the game longer, also are far more inclined to have the money and research tech to be running around in Tier 4 fittings of all kinds. These give even more bonuses on top of their EP ones.
Once again, the only people I see defending the vast gap in advantages provided are the people who currently have them. I will also point out, once again, I'm not arguing the mechanic I'm arguing the vastness of the curve. It will likely take at least a year for someone starting now to have a chance in hell against someone from early access and only in the case that they super-specialize.
Considering that PvP is the clear focus and draw of this game it's important that there be balance on all sides AND that it be there early or people will leave or simply go inactive which kills the market (just look at all the economy threads) among other things.
*square 1*
MoBIoS wrote:Myles Norvid wrote:EP disadvantage is the biggest problem PO has. And it will grow expotentially bigger with every passing month. There are like ~150-200 people online, which doesn't make this game a MMO.
Yet you still want the gap to grow even bigger. Good luck with finding new players.
I don´t mean to be rude, but you Sir, seem to be playing the wrong game or just do not understand how the EP mechanics work. I suggest you go back to square 1 and start to read the post from the beginnig, for some further enlightenment.
I would really *LOVE* for some of you "EP makes no difference" people to explain how it's possible that someone who has 5x as much EP as you isn't stronger in spades.
Take a simple example, basic robotics. All my characters are blue, my combat guy has basic robotics at lvl 5. This gives him a 25% damage bonus with EM guns, 25% more armor repair, and 25% extended falloff. Going over lvl 5 is prohibitively expensive especially for someone with only a months worth of EP.
If I'm fighting against another guy with the same skills but he has more EP total and therefore higher basic robotics (and probably other combat skills as well) he could have as much as a 25% damage/repair/falloff bonus OVER AND ABOVE MINE. That's just 1 skill. Having more EP can and does give serious advantages not just small ones.
It's also a fact that people with more EP, having played the game longer, also are far more inclined to have the money and research tech to be running around in Tier 4 fittings of all kinds. These give even more bonuses on top of their EP ones.
Once again, the only people I see defending the vast gap in advantages provided are the people who currently have them. I will also point out, once again, I'm not arguing the mechanic I'm arguing the vastness of the curve. It will likely take at least a year for someone starting now to have a chance in hell against someone from early access and only in the case that they super-specialize.
Considering that PvP is the clear focus and draw of this game it's important that there be balance on all sides AND that it be there early or people will leave or simply go inactive which kills the market (just look at all the economy threads) among other things.
Going from 1-5 is far easier than going from 5-10. If they are putting months of EP into a single skill, you could be putting that into a variety of lower rank and level skills and probably even the gap significantly. Plus you picked the skill (robot control) that is probably the most effective on combat strength, but they are also very high rank (requires a lot more EP).
No one said more EP isn't stronger, it's just not gamebreaking.
Money has nothing to do with EP, this entire argument is centered around things you CAN'T grind out with more play time. So your argument about resources is irrelevant.
Also I'm not one of the people with a huge advantage, I am just coming up on one month playing. I played Eve and I understand the concept behind it the system.
I would really *LOVE* for some of you "EP makes no difference" people to explain how it's possible that someone who has 5x as much EP as you isn't stronger in spades.
Cerp,
Yes of course EP matters. If it didn't there would be no reason to even earn EP; so I am agreeing with you that EP _CAN_ make a difference.
This arguement has been gone over 100 times, probably a million times if you count the eve forums.
What you can't expect, since this game is an MMO and not a console game, is to be equal on day 1.
Skill costs go up for each level, as you know, and the EP is dependant on which corp and spark you choose.
The idea of competing is valid regardless of if you talking about PVP, Industry, or Mining.
First, the math.
Starting EP: 20,000
EP per day: 1,440
EP per 30 days : 43,200
Total EP at 30 days: 63,200
Which means, that anyone 30 days ahead of you will never have more than 63,200 EP. I'm not going to talk about EA accounts, it was a special promotion and there is a fixed number of accounts with that EP bonus, and the general principal of Skill gap closing remains valid with EA account, its just a slightly longer time.
Which means at day 1, a combat pilot with 30 days more EP is likely to have Skill level 5 in a number of appropriate skills, which will make them much more effective than the new pilot.
To keep the example balanced, lets assume that you follow the EXACT same progression path, that is you took the same skills as this other pilot (which never happens, but this is just to show how the gap closes).
Now, at day 30 you have the same skills as that pilot did, but they now have 43,200 more EP spent. Lets see what they can get in combat skills starting from level 5. This is also assuming they didn't spend any EP on assignments, market, etc - or that you spent the same EP up to this point.
Advanced weapons (Medium any style) level 7 : 7,392 EP +6% damage
Rapid Fire from level 5 to level 7: 6,881 + 6% firing speed
Target Analysis level 5 to level 7: 7,392 + 2% damage
Advanced Robotics Level 5 to 7: 15,593 * 2 robot bonus
Crititcal Hit from level 5 to lev 7: 11,088 + 2% critical hit
Sharp shooting from 5 to lev 6: 2,430 + 3% distance
With 3,512 EP toward sharpshooting 7.
Now, at day 30, I would say with all those additional skills that they would still have a distinct advantage over you.
*Don't worry about skill selection, this isn't about which skills to choose, its about how the gap closes.
Now, here we are at day 60. You have all the above skills. But the other player has now spent 43,200 (+3 512left over) on skills.
Critical hit from 7 to 8 : 10,752 +1% critical
Sharpshooting from 6 to 8 : 10,733 + 6% range
Advanced Weapons from 7 to 8: 7,168 + 3 % damage
Rapid fire from level 7 to lev 8 : 6,672 + 3% weapon speed
Target Analysis from level 7 to 8: 7,168 +1 % damage
With 4119 EP left over
So, still an advantage, but the gap is closing enough that the difference is 2 or 3 weapon cycles.
Now, finally at day 90, you have all the above skills, and your opponent has...
Advanced Weapon 10 + 6% dmg: 32,480
Sharpshooting 9 + 3% range: 9,112
With 5,727 left over but the above skills are more than that for the next level.
Here we are, you and your opponent are just 1 volley difference at most. Because no EP was spent in non combat stuff, you still both can only fit the same gear, so at this point your 100% competitive, and the only difference now is the PVP skill.
Yes 90 days is a LONG time, but the idea that you can NEVER catch up is totally false.
TL;DR - On the flipside, it also doesn' seem fair that someone only playing the game for a few weeks should be able to gank me if I have been playing for 45 days.
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