Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Dromsex, You try to argue with the sick person...

Everyone should understand that any balancing generates only new a disbalance.

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102

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

oh noes, he insulted me! *sob, sob*

somebody, please explain him why he is wrong

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

It was already explained in the other thread many times how to defeat a ewar group.  Yes to kill a ewar group you should have 1-2 fast tacklers to pin them down one at a time so your mechs can kill them, it is not that hard, it's called the power of a balanced group.

Also, if you lose multiple mechs to a group of ewar you are doing something terribly wrong and that IS a l2p issue.

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Dromsex wrote:

You see? Your forced into EW. Thats a design flaw.

Yes, we're forcing you to use ewar. Our bad.

-GLiMPSE™

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

The scenarios are theoretical. You never get a whole group of intruding EWs pinned with 1-2 tacklers - the others can just leave the field.

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Certainly something like a zenith, which is a mech btw, couldn't possibly demob multiple targets at once?  I give up on this topic, feel free to keep thinking ewar is invincible, it only helps me and I am confident the devs know whats up.  cool

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

I didnt state its invincible - its too versatile for the low price and progression lvl.

108 (edited by Mara Kaid 2011-02-15 18:37:07)

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Oh just saw your reply above, but here is my advice,and they don't need change:

I don't know about the other guys, but we've managed to be effective vs ewar groups without having to use 1-3 mil fittings..

If they tackle you, one guy has to hold that tackle, and in doing so he exposes himself. While his friends shoot the primary you can have your fleet move in closer. To them moving in closer means another chance you get to tackle. They are frail like eggs, one guy demo'd means death. Now the tackler can go down pretty easy, and he has to hold his tackle for which you the opponent can cover that distance easily ( as tiggus said in a light bot or even easier fast ewar ). Have your tacklers spread as well, since another tackle means another instant death. when your fleet moves in "TOGETHER" you often force them back, and it repeats again till some *** seperates from the fleet. Remember I said "TOGETHER" that means your fleet mass is together, as a group.

If they get a tackle on one of your guys, you move in together on the guy tackled. Try to get a tackle, and watch them pull back further. No tackle? Ok pull back to cover again. Got a tackle? Good, primary, and let another tackler try to get a tackle as they try to bail their friends out. Ideally it will start going like checkers.

If you use cover that forces them more into your range. They can indeed demob through terrain, but again if you come out and get ontop of one,as a group, you win.

Having long distance ewar 9-10 helps too, because bammo they suddenly get tackled.

All they do is kite, all you have to do is make them make a mistake which forces them in, and bam.

We tested this idea consistently against infestation and against hun/joke. It works.

This was using light bots, and it would be far easier if I had a t4 demob + faster ship. Also the idea of mechs supported by those tacklers would make it also easier

It is indeed frustrating for some, but is it frustrating because you wont work solid as a team, or because you want it to be much easier pvp mechanics?

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Dromsex wrote:

The scenarios are theoretical. You never get a whole group of intruding EWs pinned with 1-2 tacklers - the others can just leave the field.

Leave the field in defeat. Leave it knowing they can't win against you, because you're playing it right.

Remind me again why that's not a win?

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Becasue they pop up somewhere else 2 mins later. Also - the stuff necessary to provide proper defense against themisnt in co-relation.

Also - still EW dictate where to fight and when. Thats simply bad deign.

111

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

It is a no win arguement.

EW bots are designed to be the 'dictate where to fight' bots, Dromsex doesn't want that.

Dev's aren't going to change the purpose of the EW so its not use argueing about the change, and no use argueing with Drom on the points why EW are like they are.

112 (edited by Dromsex 2011-02-15 19:21:48)

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Right there is no argument - id thought id just point it out ;> But im sure the DEVs dont want to have only 1 bot that dictates open pvp. Im even more sure - the majority of players doesnt want that either.

And apart from that - it is just weak and flat 1-dimensional design.

113 (edited by Annihilator 2011-02-15 20:24:28)

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

...EW bots are designed to be the 'dictate where to fight' bots...

it right, they are designed to dictate the fight, not to do the fight at the same time.

*edit for clearer statement*

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Thats a good way to put it Anni and shows the difference between the current implementation and a meaningful design.

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Annihilator wrote:

...EW bots are designed to be the 'dictate where to fight' bots...

it right, they are designed to dictate the fight, not to do the fight at the same time.

*edit for clearer statement*

They don't do any fighting.

Ewars pick off targets of opportunity, slowly I might add, it takes a good 20-30 seconds for 10-15 ewar pilots to drop a plated mech. If you put 10 damage fit ewars up against 5 mechs... the ewars stand very little chance of winning.

Sure, the mech's can't chase down the ewars.. but *** when you can win a fight with 2 or 3 to 1 odds fairly easily... is it really fair balance to expect a bot to be able to dictate the fight and win it even if outnumbered? lol...

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Honestly, the issue with ewar bots is not really able to be displayed in straight up comparisons of damage/tanking.

Ewar bots advantages comes from the ability to choose when and where to fight, and the ability to always run if you should choose too. Arguing mixed groups "beat" a enemy ground of all ewar bots is a completely valid point.

The real problem is that neither side can really kill the other. Yes, a mixed group should win in any stand up fight... but how many of these actually occur. In actuality, what happens is the ewar bot group runs, and any tacklers the mixed group might have either back off, or chase and get focused down outside of their friendlies range. They might win the fight by making the ewar bots run, but that still means you have a large group of ewar bots running around on your island. They still have the option of either leaving (with little to no loss) or kiting the mixed group forever, looking for targets that they can actually kill (winning in a comparison of NIC lost).

As long as one group of bots as a significant speed advantage this will always be the case. What does this actually mean? Ewar bots are the go to roaming/roaming defense vehicle.  Mixed groups are for intrusions or anything where there is a objective that the enemy HAS to fight you to win. This said, whats the best counter too a large amount of ewar bots on your island? Send a mixed attack group to theirs to screw with their ***.  Suddenly, you have stopped any mining/farming on their island, and potentially force them to return home to defend their crap. If they want to get you off their island? They either need to engage at a large disadvantage with all ewar bots or switch into their own mixed force. Suddenly you have that fight you were looking for.

I guess what I am trying to say is, you don't need to nerf the bot, just use some different tactics.

117 (edited by Dromsex 2011-02-15 23:13:41)

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

This is not about a 3on1 or whatever numbers scenario. EW simply have too much offensive and defensive means at once.

If they have any weapons equipped, they should be as fast as other bot types. Its the classic hybrid issue in balancing within MMOs.

Its not about now making mechs dictae the fight. Its about givin EWsa role to choose from - active fighting(with slower speed) or passive support(with current speed).

edit: i understand fate - but nonetheless its bad design when 1 class can dictate anything. Whats this, spiderling online?

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Dromsex wrote:

Whats this, spiderling online?

Farmville online with lasers...

But seriously: these cat and mouse games everyone is doing just got boring.
Asymmetric warfare, terror and harassment but no good/clean PvP.

And one thing is certain: Most changes that support that kind of gameplay have been done intentionally.
So either they want it to be like that or they just made a mistake and havnt realized yet.
..

I hope for the latter and that they balance it within the next few weeks.

119

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

I'm trying to see all sides of this...

I think there are some things that we can agree on;

- the most common PVP now is 'the roam'
- EW are the most used bot for 'the roam'

Now, unless ALL the bots exactly the same, there will always arise 1 bot/setup that is superior for 'the roam'.

Automatically, any bot with NO offensive capabilty will not be used for a roam, it would be completely useless.

The next defacto roam bot will be the fastest bot with offensive capability, regardless of it's size.

If EW has its weapons taken away, then the Baphomet with lasers and T4 frames going 90 kph will be next; or something else like this.

Mech's will still not be able to catch a group of Baph's, plus they will pound the crap out of a mech in no time flat.

In any of the scenerios, EW is now useless for 'the roam', and now no one but me with my medium fit Baph is happy.

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Arga wrote:

Automatically, any bot with NO offensive capabilty will not be used for a roam, it would be completely useless.

The next defacto roam bot will be the fastest bot with offensive capability, regardless of it's size.

.. which i have been trying to say, what, 5 pages back ... it's just not sinking in it seems. Thanks for reiterating.

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121 (edited by Dromsex 2011-02-16 00:04:42)

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Not really Arga - it would mean that e-warfare would be useless. And of course - im talking about light robots and their speed in the same way as im talking about EWs speed.

Those speed differences just make this game a dice game - and to be able to win it mostly - people pick the dice with the 7 eyes side on it. But its boring if everyone does it becasue he needs to.

edit: dont think so close minded guys - of course speeds in general would have to be revised. interceptors just need a temporary boost to fulfill their role - but doesnt allow them to cat&mouse  game anytime they want.

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Dromsex wrote:

This is not about a 3on1 or whatever numbers scenario. EW simply have too much offensive and defensive means at once

They don't have a lot of offensive capability nor defensive...they have speed to decide when to engage that is it. It takes odd's to be in their favor for ewar to kill anything... plain and simple.

Dromsex wrote:

If they have any weapons equipped, they should be as fast as other bot types. Its the classic hybrid issue in balancing within MMOs.

They have 1/2 the amount of firepower as a normal light and way less then an assault... why should they go as slow as one? Are you asking for all bots/mechs with guns to go the same speed? Everyone will just romp in heavies... how boring/linear will that be? New players will have no reason to play until their EP builds up to get into a mech/heavy...silly concept...

Dromsex wrote:

Its not about now making mechs dictae the fight. Its about givin EWsa role to choose from - active fighting(with slower speed) or passive support(with current speed).

But your arguments say otherwise... mechs WILL dictate the fight if they are the same speed as ewar... plus they have longer range. Everyone will go roughly the same speed... all this will do is take away a viable tactic.

Dromsex wrote:

edit: i understand fate - but nonetheless its bad design when 1 class can dictate anything. Whats this, spiderling online?

It's not bad design, it's varied design. EWAR's can run from a fight with mechs.. because they know they can't win that fight. You won, they lost...(but they kiled your termis, so you're upset)

Such is life, get over it. What you're looking for in changes will make this game boring and roaming will water down into who has more heavies stomping around.

123

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

half ewar half assault gang

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

Siddy - im not talking about effectivity - but opportunities. And this game hasnt.

Re: PvP balance. (again and again)

To illustrate more: we heard there will be MK2 variants. SO what about MK2 variants being an inverse of what the MK1s are?

Fast but light mechs, heavy bit slow LRs. Its simply breaking up that static image of the game.