Re: Insurance action

I think people are missing the point in Lupus's posts and interjecting personal emotion into the discussion. I agree that the industrial scale of the operation was way out of hand, and wrong.

The fact is that the devs take away all of the profit from he "insurance exploits". See original post on devblog about their math. The point Lupus was trying to make was that he blew up Corp insured bots, profit which goes to the Corp. This was bad, yes, but the Corp got their money taken away. But on top of that, Lupus's own money was taken away. This is double penalty and it no longer follows the penalty rules set by devs after the fact without informing anybody.

I am axe and I dislike m2s and others. But please keep the discussion relevant to the issues at hand and not your own personal views of each other's tags. This discussion is really important in analyzing actions of BOTH players and devs.

227

Re: Insurance action

Xenapticon wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Savin --- does not equal DEV. Not even relevant to the discussion...

I believe that is who we are waiting a response for here....

EDIT - oh, i forgot, Savin...  idiot!

So much irony in you calling everyone an idiot...

Someone explains how you're wrong and you just say it's not relevant. 

Oh and speak for yourself.

Eh, I'm used to it. Lupus just isn't capable of marshaling a valid argument, so he stomps his feet and takes it out on the poor saps in Teamspeak.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

228

Re: Insurance action

Alfredson wrote:

The point Lupus was trying to make was that he blew up Corp insured bots, profit which goes to the Corp. This was bad, yes, but the Corp got their money taken away. But on top of that, Lupus's own money was taken away. This is double penalty and it no longer follows the penalty rules set by devs after the fact without informing anybody.

Yes, Lupus is guilty, and deserves to suffer the penalty.

But where was it stated that the reduction was a one-time-only event? If further investigation shows additional wrongdoing, do the devs not have the right to make adjustments to the penalty?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Insurance action

Alfredson wrote:

I think people are missing the point in Lupus's posts and interjecting personal emotion into the discussion. I agree that the industrial scale of the operation was way out of hand, and wrong.

The fact is that the devs take away all of the profit from he "insurance exploits". See original post on devblog about their math. The point Lupus was trying to make was that he blew up Corp insured bots, profit which goes to the Corp. This was bad, yes, but the Corp got their money taken away. But on top of that, Lupus's own money was taken away. This is double penalty and it no longer follows the penalty rules set by devs after the fact without informing anybody.

I am axe and I dislike m2s and others. But please keep the discussion relevant to the issues at hand and not your own personal views of each other's tags. This discussion is really important in analyzing actions of BOTH players and devs.


On the dev blog they said they took money from personal accounts aswell to cover all that was made, as Lupus was an acitve participant, his own money was taken.  Don't just assume people haven't analyzed it because they think Lupus hasn't got a leg to stand on.

I don't dislike "m2s and others".

Re: Insurance action

I am saying that the devs need to communicate their intentions more, especially with penalties. Also whether it is a fair representation of wrongdoing. Alot of posts were about "zomg he is m2s he deserves it. As much as i agree, that is not a fair rule of law. This is their game yes, but we are the customers and we deserve to know.

Re: Insurance action

Xena, I have re-read the dev blog and there is no mention of them saying what you suggested. Please post where you found it. In the meanwhile, here is the excerpt:

We considered many options on how we should go about this, but in the end we opted for counting the robots that were used in these operations, checked the actual insurance payouts they received for blowing them up, and then calculated the real average market prices that the payouts should have been in the first place. The difference of these two values is the falsely gained money, their "profit". This is what we had to take away.


Ps. No, I really dislike "m2s and others" for blowing up my bots. Wasn't a typo tongue

232

Re: Insurance action

Alfredson wrote:

I am saying that the devs need to communicate their intentions more, especially with penalties. Also whether it is a fair representation of wrongdoing. Alot of posts were about "zomg he is m2s he deserves it. As much as i agree, that is not a fair rule of law. This is their game yes, but we are the customers and we deserve to know.

I think you make a good point here- solid communication between the company and its customers is always a good thing.

As for penalties, though, I think it would be a mistake to let the players decide what "fair" meant- just consider the posters in this thread who have actually convinced themselves that the devs are at fault here. Would you trust those individuals to define violations and "fair" punishments?

Moreover, let's be honest here: these players should consider themselves fortunate that they were not simply banned, as they would be in a lot of other games. But instead, they have the gall (and, it seems, a child's sense of entitlement) to claim that they were treated unfairly.

I agree that many people here are glad to see the members of Infestation fall so hard, and that has colored their assessment of the situation. But I am equally troubled by the number of people willing to buy the completely invalid arguments that this is somehow the dev's fault- to me, that indicates a willingness to take advantage of exploits that is far too common.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Insurance action

I was labelled as one of the major exploiters in axe. I am a combat char and blew up some bots I bought from the market, and had a couple of hundred thousand nic taken from me. To be labelled as such is another issues on it's own. But I do see some merits of the argument that it was the devs fault. I also see the merits on the other side. I hope devs learn from this and move on, be more open next time. On a similar note, I think dev zoom should seriously consider reading all of the posts (glossing over troll threads of course) as they contain valuable suggestions

Re: Insurance action

It's all old news. No one cares any more.

The Game

235 (edited by Yavanna 2011-02-15 11:02:03)

Re: Insurance action

First, i'm not concerned by any affair of insurance fraud (no NIC taken out from my wallet)

But i'm considered as a frauder because the name of my corporation was quoted !

In my opinion, the Devs should not have generalized by giving the name of the corporations most involved ... this is a big mistake and this is provoking unnecessary trolls.

I think that no name should have been given ...



I have another question :
We are still going PvP actually ... will devs give us back money for insurance we still can't subscribe at the moment ?
Or will they adjust our billing to take account of this missing service ?  big_smile


(sorry for rough translation)

236 (edited by Ekim 2011-02-15 11:09:49)

Re: Insurance action

our wallet looks as empty as usual i guess it was an individual doing it for their own benefit in our case

although we did encourage people to go and try and get them selves blown up by our many enemies and donate the proceeds to the corp to fund replacements
so i guess now if people want stuff they will have to run transports all day.. sigh

oh well back to minecraft

Re: Insurance action

Alfredson wrote:

The fact is that the devs take away all of the profit from he "insurance exploits". See original post on devblog about their math. The point Lupus was trying to make was that he blew up Corp insured bots, profit which goes to the Corp. This was bad, yes, but the Corp got their money taken away. But on top of that, Lupus's own money was taken away. This is double penalty and it no longer follows the penalty rules set by devs after the fact without informing anybody.

Alfredson wrote:

Xena, I have re-read the dev blog and there is no mention of them saying what you suggested. Please post where you found it. In the meanwhile, here is the excerpt:


DEV Zoom wrote:

I'd like to clear up some misinformations:

  • We didn't remove any money not associated to the suspected frauds. The 0 NIC accounts some of you see are because those corporations simply didn't have enough money on their account to cover it all. In these cases we went on with the private accounts of those corporation members who have actually executed the frauds or were connected to them.

  • Asking "how can we have 0 NIC, didn't we do anything for 3 months?" is very short-sighted. Ask yourself how much money you have spent on items and raw materials, how much money you have currently in assets and market buy orders, or how much you have traded or simply transferred to your own members.

Re: Insurance action

Sorry I was busy sleeping.

Lupus, while Savin is not a DEV, he told you just about everything I could have told you (thanks btw).

And Dromsex did just beat me too in what I wanted to quote, but I'll add this for emphasis:

DEV Zoom wrote:

We didn't remove any money not associated to the suspected frauds. The 0 NIC accounts some of you see are because those corporations simply didn't have enough money on their account to cover it all. In these cases we went on with the private accounts of those corporation members who have actually executed the frauds or were connected to them.

239

Re: Insurance action

DEV Zoom wrote:

Lupus, while Savin is not a DEV, he told you just about everything I could have told you (thanks btw).

You're welcome!

Please don't take this as sucking up, or taking the dev's side, or M2S bashing: as they say here in Texas, I don't have a dog in this fight, and I doubt this affair has affected me much in-game. But I recognize wrong thinking when I see it, and Lupus, as usual, is wrong.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Insurance action

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sorry I was busy sleeping.

Lupus, while Savin is not a DEV, he told you just about everything I could have told you (thanks btw).

And Dromsex did just beat me too in what I wanted to quote, but I'll add this for emphasis:

DEV Zoom wrote:

We didn't remove any money not associated to the suspected frauds. The 0 NIC accounts some of you see are because those corporations simply didn't have enough money on their account to cover it all. In these cases we went on with the private accounts of those corporation members who have actually executed the frauds or were connected to them.

Cool, so we're done.. no more corp/private wallet surprises for this issue?

Re: Insurance action

Savin wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Lupus, while Savin is not a DEV, he told you just about everything I could have told you (thanks btw).

You're welcome!

Please don't take this as sucking up, or taking the dev's side, or M2S bashing: as they say here in Texas, I don't have a dog in this fight, and I doubt this affair has affected me much in-game. But I recognize wrong thinking when I see it, and Lupus, as usual, is wrong.

Your from Texas?

I am ashamed. You must be one of those west Texans....deep west...

242

Re: Insurance action

lol, every post Savin makes he usually claims to not take any sides and yet here we are where he resorts to 'disliking m2s' and personal attacks on Lupus.

I can only assume that the usual attention seeking holier than thou attitude is due to his mom posting for him normally and now we see his true colours.

I demand the reinstatement of Savins mom!

(and our money!)

243 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-15 16:21:59)

Re: Insurance action

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sorry I was busy sleeping.

Lupus, while Savin is not a DEV, he told you just about everything I could have told you (thanks btw).

And Dromsex did just beat me too in what I wanted to quote, but I'll add this for emphasis:

DEV Zoom wrote:

We didn't remove any money not associated to the suspected frauds. The 0 NIC accounts some of you see are because those corporations simply didn't have enough money on their account to cover it all. In these cases we went on with the private accounts of those corporation members who have actually executed the frauds or were connected to them.

Actually, rather lame Zoom, that you have to ride on someone else's wagon train, instead of addressing those issues yourself.  I would have expected at least a modicum of professionalism form a "DEV".

As far as others, there is no point in engaging in discusion with people who's sole objective is to refute someone, no matter what they say and how they say it.  It's not worthy of my time nor effort.

My goal in this has been accoplished, to point out how unprofessional and arbitrary this has been handled, and those with at least half a wit can easily see how poorly this has been handled.

EDIT - I do need to say that I made 1 error in the above - if you reread Zooms response to me, it was not from shooting bots that they say I was hanged for.  No, it was for GETTING BLOWN UP IN 30 BAPHS.  Funny, because I did not get any insurance money from that.  I never insured them.  So again, no insurance money was ever recieved by myself.  lol, interesting.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

244

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Actually, rather lame Zoom, that you have to ride on someone else's wagon train, instead of addressing those issues yourself.  I would have expected at least a modicum of professionalism form a "DEV".

What, he needs to come up with whole new ways of showing that you're wrong? It doesn't matter who points it out, wrong is wrong. And you, seemingly from pure instinct, are wrong.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

As far as others, there is no point in engaging in discusion with people who's sole objective is to refute someone, no matter what they say and how they say it.  It's not worthy of my time nor effort.

Sorry, the boat to "the high ground" left a long time ago, right about the same time you started shooting at those 30-odd mechs.

And no, I don't live to prove everyone else wrong, but I'm sure it seems that way to you because you're pretty much always wrong.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

My goal in this has been accoplished, to point out how unprofessional and arbitrary this has been handled, and those with at least half a wit can easily see how poorly this has been handled.

The only thing you've proven here is that you can't make a decent argument, and that you have the same sense of entitlement as an eight year-old.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

EDIT - I do need to say that I made 1 error in the above - if you reread Zooms response to me, it was not from shooting bots that they say I was hanged for.  No, it was for GETTING BLOWN UP IN 30 BAPHS.  Funny, because I did not get any insurance money from that.  I never insured them.  So again, no insurance money was ever recieved by myself.  lol, interesting.

Again, so what?

Here you admit to taking part in the scheme. Whether you profit is irrelevant: you participated in the exploit, therefore you deserve your punishment.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

245 (edited by Kimotoro 2011-02-15 18:52:33)

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

So again, no insurance money was ever recieved by myself.


http://img841.imageshack.us/i/lupus.jpg

Re: Insurance action

Kimotoro wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

So again, no insurance money was ever recieved by myself.


http://img841.imageshack.us/i/lupus.jpg/


LoL +5 CoolPoints™ -- well done... well done good sir.

247

Re: Insurance action

nice devs removed my NIC that was all from mission rewards and i havent even played for months and certainly not done any insurance fraud at all.. thanks. big_smile

Re: Insurance action

Zheo wrote:

nice devs removed my NIC that was all from mission rewards and i havent even played for months and certainly not done any insurance fraud at all.. thanks. big_smile

But your alliance profited, and your corp is a member of an alliance, and you're a member of that corp so by relation you are just as guilty as the few that did this.

No reason to question the logic -- this was a 'systemic' fix, there were no errors in this 'systemic' computation, and the punishments/reposition of assets are 'systemically' correct.

249

Re: Insurance action

GLiMPSE wrote:
Zheo wrote:

nice devs removed my NIC that was all from mission rewards and i havent even played for months and certainly not done any insurance fraud at all.. thanks. big_smile

But your alliance profited, and your corp is a member of an alliance, and you're a member of that corp so by relation you are just as guilty as the few that did this.

No reason to question the logic -- this was a 'systemic' fix, there were no errors in this 'systemic' computation, and the punishments/reposition of assets are 'systemically' correct.

ah yes indeed.. i must be very bad person for playing this game.. guess i shouldnt.

250

Re: Insurance action

Zheo wrote:

nice devs removed my NIC that was all from mission rewards and i havent even played for months and certainly not done any insurance fraud at all.. thanks. big_smile

If this is true, and you never played when your corp did took advantage of the exploit, then it certainly is not fair that you were punished. Why not take it up with a GM or Dev? Just be sure beforehand that none of the abuses took place while you were actively playing.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***